Inception
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” Job 1:21 NASB
Naked I shall return there – Do we truly understand Job’s response to calamity? Are we prepared to have our lives stripped to the bone simply because God is sovereign? Have we converted Job’s declaration into theological jargon rather than emotional devastation? Consider this:
Leonardo DiCaprio made a profound statement in the movie Inception. Here it is.
An idea. Once lodged in the mind, almost impossible to remove. The history of Christian systematic theology might be characterized in terms of a single, simple idea. God is perfect. This simple little idea leads to the philosophical dilemma of sovereignty and free will. IF God is perfect, then (according to the Greek definition) nothing can be added or taken away from Him. And this definition means that God cannot learn anything, that what He knows He knows from all eternity and cannot be changed. Perfection demands immutability. Once this idea was introduced into exegesis, coupled with the closed universe of Greek philosophy, Scripture became statements of eternal truths rather than stories of human emotion and interaction. The resolution of this dilemma leads directly to another apparent contradiction.
So how do we read Job? Is Job’s declaration an announcement of inevitability, a statement that God controls all life and whatever He determines will happen will happen regardless of human choice? Or is Job’s declaration an emotional outcry at the futility of life, a gush of angst because it feels as if humans have no influence over the course of history?
Is Job saying that it really doesn’t matter what we do because in the end we die—as God determines? Or is he reeling under the trauma of destruction of all he holds dear, and grasping at something, anything, that helps make sense of his agony?
The tiny little idea of perfection shapes how you read Job’s story. If you’ve grown up in the West, influenced by 2000 years of Greek philosophy, you probably incorporated this idea into your thinking without even realizing its source or effect. But if you hold on to the idea, you will discover that it closes the universe, that God is the Man in the machine, moving the levers and dials to make everything happen. And nothing ever changes. Perfection leads directly to determinism. You and I matter not at all.
Topical Index: perfection, Job 1:21
In any conflict, there can only be 2 sides. A “third force”, or “false flag” as it is known today, inevitably originated from or are aligned with one of these two sides.
Much the same with choice, or “free will”. You either chose to follow the way of YHWH and live or not to follow YHWH and die.
Job apparently persisted to do the former despite advice to do otherwise.
The Heavenly Family is in the process of completion, of person (a bride), Kingdom and offspring. The Universe is enacting this process.
Skip, I’d bet even you could just as soundly, if not more so, argue that perfection doesn’t demand immutability and doesn’t lead directly to determinism. If not, I’d bet YHWH could. AND, I’d bet He’d win. ; )
Jerry, to me, your comment is playing upon more than one definition of the word “perfection”. Drop back for us and define the word. He who defines the word, wins.
The “Ancient Hebrew” understanding of Perfection is “Being Functional”.
Correction: “Being Functionally Complete”
Thank you, Pieter. Could you please elaborate? I am currently slogging through how to understand and return to function. I need to understand this other way of thinking about how function differs from form.
So far I think I may see the Greek idea of perfection as an ideal form that we must CONform to, but the problem I am having with that is that all forms exist in the past; in the place of already determined (chosen).
The Hebrew idea of perfection, however, appears to be one step ahead of us, in the future. This would conform (sorry, having fun at the expense of the topic) more to the understanding of perfection being a description of an present action as opposed to an already realized state, where no more action can occur, for all realized states are forms to be found only in the past.
This is what I am going round and round with, like a dog chasing its tail, I suppose, trying to spin out those Greek cobwebs so I can see the (duh) obvious. You are helping me!
Hi Laurita,
– Let us take the Greek concepts of “LOVE” and “FAITH”. These are abstract thoughts and there can be no true “FUNCTION” to them.
The more you try to “PERFECT” these, the more you fail.
– Hebrew synonyms can be “SERVE” and “TRUST”. These are actions by which you can demonstrate how you “FUNCTION”. The more you “SERVE” and “TRUST”, the more “COMPLETE” worshiper you become. It is practical with success in the present.
“An idea. Once lodged in the mind, almost impossible to remove.”
Our Greek upbringing is truly a curse, almost impossible to overcome.
Have a look at: http://thelivingwords.ancient-hebrew.org/perfect.pdf
This is a quote from it:
“The word “tam” [H:8535] can be best defined as “mature in thought and action” and is the parent root of the verb “tamam” [H:8552] meaning to be whole, finished or completed. From this verb comes the word “tamiym” [H:8549] . Thou shalt be perfect (tamiym) with the LORD thy God (Deut.18:13) Can one be perfect? From a Greek perspective, no, because everyone has his faults, but in Hebraic thought there is no concept of “perfect.” A better translation of the verse above is; You will be complete (tamiym) with Yahweh your Elohiym”
Pieter, I really want to read it but my computer is not accepting or reading PDF. I wonder if it would be possible for someone to open it in another format and then perhaps email it to lauritahayes at gmail?
You really helped me, though. It got me to thinking about all the verses that tell us to take on the righteousness (completion) of Christ. He IS our complete function through the Holy Spirit in our lives. I can be the worst sinner of all (like David was so many times) but, through repentance, meet my Saviour, and He restores me to full function at that juncture, even though He carries most of that function (yoke). A fully repentant sinner, then, is a fully met (connected) and functioning sinner, for repentance IS a sinner’s correct connection, or, function. (Of course, when we are not sinning, there are many other connections that are correct at those points.)
In fact, the way I read those verses, Christ is that Function, or, completion FOR us when we decide to meet Him where He is at (and He is carrying out so many functions for us, the Bible is full of info on what He is doing for us). Halleluah! I think I will go team up with Him right now! Thank you so much, Pieter!
To be fair, Skip already did, somewhat, define his use of the word perfection in his premise. He didn’t actually define it, otherwise, and neither will I, but He did at least state, “(according to the Greek definition)”.
However, that having been said, I’ve grown up in the West (and apparently that may mean I only have a Greek mind-set), I’ve thought God was perfect, and I still do, and yet I have not believed that God is entirely immutable, utterly deterministic, and that I matter not at all. All without even clearly defining for myself exactly what Him being “perfect” means. Somehow, I just believe, or have known, that it’s all true, or at least that it’s possible that it can all be true, even though I can’t completely understand or explain how. How is that possible? Maybe it’s the Ruach HaKodesh leading me into all truth. Maybe it’s just spiritual discernment, knowledge, insight, or wisdom that comes from YHWH and is too lofty and wonderful for me to grasp.
I also believe that Scripture is both, statements of eternal truths AND stories of human emotion and interaction. AND I’m pretty sure Skip also believes this. What I take from this message, though, is the vital importance of reading scripture with an open, searching mind to “receive” fresh revelation of all the truth YHWH can give me that will help me to know Him, myself, others, and ways to live life better, and Skip and others here help me do that. THANKS.
exactly. Read the book, God, Time and the Limits of Omniscience
Blown away again.
Are you suggesting that perfection is the biggest God box of all? Time to chew.
I really embraced the idea that perfection is not a Hebrew concept. We grow, I’m concluding, into a wholeness, a completeness not into any form of perfection. Perfection being herein defined as theoretical and not a practical reality. Organic life and one could conclude it’s creator is to complex, to active with an indeterminate nature that simply can’t sustain such a simplistic view as the stasis of perfection. Perhaps objects frozen in time, like glass, or marble statues can have some degree of what we call perfection, but not living things, and certainly not the creator of all living things. In fact I had a little conversation with that creator years ago, While painting one of my minimal abstract expressionist pieces standing at top the roof deck of a 35′ water tank tower converted into a rooms in the 1920’s. I had just put the finishing touches on my painting and began to marvel at the beauty. I was living in the
Valley of the Moon on a ten acre ranch near a year round stream. The tower stood under 300 year old valley oak trees. It was just before sunset and the waning light fell long and golden across the hills and trees. Simply glorious. In adulation I exclaimed ” God you are so magnificent this creation so glorious”. I heard in my heart his loving, yet firm and resolute voice say ” You think that is something? I created that which can create. No that is something “. As I have pondered this exchange over the year’s it is clear to me our liberty of will and freedom to do and be is what God intended. For he purposed to create that which can of its on volition create. Creation never comes in a closed hard dead or fixed systemn. Perfection and the persuit of it stifles free expression and crativity and does not occure in an immutable system. That perfection of that Greek world is extinct by the way…
So if “God is perfect” is an incorrect worldview, what is the better way of thinking about God? God is holy. Would that be better?
We split a lot of fine hairs on this site so I’ll take a stab at it but I think it would be better for Skip to unpack this conversation a little further; As I have been getting it we are talking: whole, complete, holy, total functionality without inconsistency, wholly and completely integrated with out flaw, inconsistency, dysfunction, inerrant, every word that lends itself to compete and whole. The Greek Idea of perfection seems to be a fixed stasis where “nothing more could be added or taken away” without diminishing the wholeness or completion and we know of God as alive not fixed.
Read the book, God,Time and the Limits of Omniscience.
I’m glad we are not being Greek, Christian, Orthodox, Messianic, Muslim, Hindu, or Hebrew, because who can define them? Maybe Skip can and thats why we are all on this site? But none of us were born with the capacity to define God, not even Skip!
Before you toss this aside, consider the process of acquiring a Patent. The tricky part is establishing its “novelty” while also “defining” it sufficiently to establish it’s perameters so it can be guarded against infringment. I’m sure you can see the catch 22 in our ever increasing world of “new” technology? The thing is, its only novel for the first one who defines it. The definition then becomes the “box”. Now who is doing that with God? Is that really relational?
Defining Him does not change the commandment to worship Him with your whole heart because He alone IS worthy. God has given us names for Himself to give us understanding of who He is, to invite us into relationship with Him as those who have discovered Him will testify.
He not only reveals Himself to us, but like looking into a mirror when face to face, beholding Him who calls you by your name-you will discover your identity , purpose, function, and then you will humbly be aware of Him and know you cannot define Him but only describe who He is when He reveals Himself to you. The testimonies are limitless in describing Him-unless of course you call Him LOVE! You don’t really know LOVE until you have experienced Him.
Does He know you?
We are (as humans) fixed-point, finite beings with a highly limited observational perspective trying to wrap our minds around that which exists beyond our reach, the infinite. No matter how much we collaborate and reason together we are ultimately discussing something that not only do we not yet understand, but that we are incapable of understanding by our very design. Is this not what the concluding chapters of Job demonstrate?
Perhaps the daily bread that we are to ask for according to our Messiah is not only about food but about wisdom, knowledge and understanding. What we have access to contemplate and grasp and put to work in our lives is sufficient for the day (Deut 29:29). Perhaps Prov 30:8-9 isn’t only referring to money, but to wisdom knowledge and understanding as well.
It is our Greek heritage (mindset) that is imploring us to contemplate beyond our station and let us never forget that this thinking did not originate in Greece; they inherited Babel who inherited Cain who inherited the fall.
Without notice, “Hollywood” has slipped us a Mickey by asserting that since an idea can be likened to a virus then it must be ultimately persistent… hogwash! Viruses come and go and are displaced by stronger and more highly functioning beings everyday. Truth is the antiviral (John 8:32). Following the trajectory of that analogy, bear in mind that large doses of antiviral can be fatal. It’s essential to take just enough to dominate the threat. We have been given all that we need to know and are capable of grasping. For all else we must trust.
May we be ever diligent about the seeds we allow the dominant culture to plant in us simply because we are enamored with their trick photography, rehearsed dialog and disregard for the realities of daily life.