Pavia and Political History- San Teodoro
Recently I visited Saint Teodoro in Pavia, Italy. On the wall is a magnificent painting. Actually, a whole story in paintings. When I was there, I spoke with a crew from the History channel filming a documentary of this wall. Why? Because it depicts the Italian victory over Charlemagne in the 8th Century. According to the story in the paintings, the religious authority of the city received help from God to defeat the siege of Charlemagne. The only problem is that IT NEVER HAPPENED. The paintings depict a revised history, a history that was necessary for the people who first viewed the paintings 700 years AFTER the actual events. The reason the paintings reflect a complete fabrication rather than the actual history is simple: the original audience was under attack from outsiders and they needed a message that God saved them in the past and would do so again. So the Church rewrote the actual history to fit the political need of the moment.
When I discussed this with the commentator as they were filming, I realized that this is an example of the human capacity to alter memories (i.e., history) in order to accomplish a political end. The same thing seems to be true of the David and Solomon stories. Of course, there is considerable archeological debate about the ACTUAL events and the dates of the biblical events, but it seems fairly clear that the original audience of these stories was hundreds of years after the events supposedly occurred, and it is quite possible that the events were modified to meet the political agenda of that audience.
I am not claiming to know that this is the case. I am only pointing out that the biblical documents might have altered the event history for political purposes, as we see from other examples. The reason we have such a problem with this approach is because we believe the biblical text to be “inspired” by God and, therefore, not subject to the usual human motives found in other ancient history. But that means we have determined in advance how we will actually read the text rather than allowing the text to dictate what we find.
It’s an tough issue–not easily resolved. Do we believe because we choose to believe or do we believe because the evidence confirms our convictions?
Here’s the picture of the wall. It’s fascinating, isn’t it?
This gives a whole new meaning to the phrase “history repeats itself”…
Skip, I read an explanation of why the story lines in the books of Kings differs from the same ones in the books of Chronicles that explains that the kings (not surprisingly) commissioned the books by that name, so therefore we see a more political slant in them. In the Chronicles, however which were compiled by commission of the Temple, we see more of YHVH’s version. Seems He has a political slant of His own, too.
I’m one of those people that absolutely believe the scriptures to be inspired, God-breathed and infallible, in the original manuscripts.
I also believe that if there appears to be a conflict someplace it’s more likely than not our error or misunderstanding, or some historians best guess, or some great theologians, not the scriptures itself or the original authors.
I also confess that I do in fact believe and trust that the Creator of heaven and earth is more than capable, and has, keep His words to us in order, intact, true and accurate.
Mark, I want to agree with you but can’t quite do it. Your own words betray the problem. I too believe in the infallibility of the “original manuscripts” but we don’t have them and therefore how can you say that God has kept “His words to us in order, intact, true and accurate.”? Which copies are the accurate copies?
Is it the Masoretic, Samaritan, or the Septuagint versions of the Torah for example? The patriarchal genealogies within them vary by over 1,300 years!
By and large, I agree with you, what we have is very close but I doubt any copy is word perfect, and unfortunately, one wrong word can make a huge difference. So, all we can do is to try to sift them ourselves with every new discovery, e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Hebrew version of Matthew etc. (And Skip’s daily help of course.)
My point being, I do not believe that there are stories in the text made up for political purposes. Or that the manuscripts we have currently have been altered to say or mean something different than what the originals did. I’ve seen no credible evidence that would prove otherwise.
I said “infallible in the original manuscripts” because those were certainly “God-breathed”. While there are some differences in the Hebrew manuscripts versus what has been discovered at Qumran and other places, the differences have been shown to be incidental, not doctrinal or would have any significant impact on the scriptures as we have them now. And we have way enough evidence of the Greek manuscripts to know that what we have in the Apostolic text, is again, accurate and trustworthy.
I do absolutely believe, not just by some ethereal faith, but, by a preponderance of evidence that we can be assured that the text we have has been preserved by the Creator of heaven and earth. If not, then we’re all just pretty much working with guesswork here. I mean which opinions do you wanna put your trust in? Me, I trust that by putting in alittle extra work, with languages and history, that I can trust that what we’ve been given for the scriptural manuscripts we have, are in fact trustworthy and an accurate account of the words of our God to His people.
We need to be careful in confusing translations versus manuscripts. And to be just as careful with comparing the Masoretic, Samaritan, or the Septuagint manuscripts to each other. Best to stick with apples to apples, IMHO.
I agree the stories were not made up for political purposes etc. but sometimes the small differences we have been missing for a thousand years are not incidental and do have significant impact on our understanding.
I have recently presented this to my local Bible study. It’s a little long but I think interesting and to my point.
Regarding the genealogy of Jesus. Right from chapter one Matthew starts his book off with it. He starts with Abraham begetting Isaac, begetting Jacob, begetting Judah and on and on until he finally gets to another Jacob who begets Joseph who is the husband of Mary who bears Jesus. Matthew also states that he has divided this genealogy into 3 sets of 14 generations, but when we count up all the names, we find that the last set is 1 generation short. Another problem with this genealogy is that it is of Joseph, who Christians freely admit is not the bloodline father of Jesus. And it is with this that Jews disqualify Jesus from claiming the Messiahship as the Messiah must be of the royal bloodline. And this should be an important factor to Christians because one would think that the whole point of Matthew going to all this trouble is to confirm the legal right of Jesus to the throne. So something is haywire here.
On top of this, Luke also has a genealogy and his just makes the problem worse. In Luke’s account, he goes backward from Jesus all the way to Adam and he ALSO traces Jesus lineage through Joseph His father. But the problem is, his Joseph has an almost completely different set of ancestors. Luke also freely admits that Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus. So again, the Jews disqualify Jesus as the Messiah and atheists justly point to two messed up genealogies that cannot both be true. Now I know that you can find apologetic commentators who will try to dance their way through these problems but they have to do a lot of contorted twisting to do it. E.g. suggesting that when Luke wrote “son”, he really meant “son-in-law”.
Once again, the recently discovered Hebrew version of Matthew has another small change that totally changes our understanding of the genealogies and suddenly makes it simple, understandable and logical. And that change is ONE word.
Whereas the Greek version says, as in the KJV
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the HUSBAND of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
The Hebrew version says,
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the FATHER of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
The first thing that confronts you on hearing this, is that Mary’s husband AND father, both had the name Joseph, but this should not really be considered a stretch. Joseph was a common name then, even as it is with us today.
But much more important are 5 other facts; first, this adds the missing generation back into Matthews statement of there being 3 sets of 14 generations and doesn’t make him look like he can’t count. Secondly, it makes this list, not Joseph’s but Mary’s genealogy, which give Jesus a literal genetic bloodline all the way back to King David and even Abraham. Third, it highlights why in prophecy, the Messiah is called the seed of a woman, instead of the seed of a man. Joseph has nothing to do with this conception, pregnancy and birth, it is all of God and Mary. Fourth, instead of trying somehow to awkwardly twist Luke’s genealogy of Joseph into that of Mary’s, it remains instead, a straightforward simple genealogy of Joseph. And fifth, because Joseph can also trace his lineage back to King David, though another son of David, Jesus can claim the throne through both parents, bloodline and adoptive. All this puts to rest the criticism of some Jews and Atheist alike, making the Gospel harmonious and glorifying our God and Creator.
But even superseding both bloodlines, Jesus can claim it through His real Father, being the only begotten, virgin born, Son of God.
Dan, this is why I love this forum. Thank you for passing this along.
I want to say, If Skip never provoked us, we would just go along, carefully trying to sound like each other and carefully trying to appear like we are in agreement (whatever that means) but the net result is that we would NOT be able to examine, down to the bottom nitty gritty, the foundation of what we actually believe – and why – nor would we have the freedom to learn from each other or have the room to grow and change and mature: much less be completely ‘wrong’ and still have that be OK!
Here’s to Skip: the grain of sand in each of our oysters.
There is nothing I can add to your comment Laurita except; couldn’t you find something kosher to toast Skip with on a Sabbath Yom Kippur? Just kidding, well done Dan. Shalom Shabbat all.
Laurita and George, two awesome replies! And on those notes, I’m off to Shabbat service.
May your fast be easy and blessed!
Be careful here because as far as I am aware in spite of intense archeological effort there is no evidence that the walls of Jericho ever fell down or were breached in any way since it was founded.
John, Your information is old, according to this article the latest archaeological evidence supports the historical accuracy of the biblical account in every detail. See this
creation DOT com/the-walls-of-jericho
It’s perfectly natural that man’s recollections over time get distorted —
either by political persuasions or simply by the deterioration of memory cells.
But can’t God’s Word be supernaturally preserved and maintained despite
human limitations? I for one say absolutely “yes”!
I am dismayed by your oft questioning the truth/veracity etc of the Bible. Saying what is written about David and Solomon is probably just like this fabricated story, without any evidence whatsoever, is upsetting. It serves no obvious purpose other than some seemingly weird satisfaction you seem to get out of trying to destroy peoples trust in the integrity and honesty of the writers of Torah or NT etc. I just don’t understand your need to do this? Why even imply anything in the Bible is anything like the story in this painting? Its integrity is no better than this? I don’t believe it.
Just because there is the absence of proof about something being true, it’s not evidence that it isn’t true. Why can’t it be true until proven it’s not? Many hundreds/thousands of details in OT and NT have been questioned by “scientists and experts” only to later be proven accurate and true. I just don’t get it. I don’t get what you are trying to accomplish. If you succeed in destroying the veracity of scripture why should anyone care about all the “truth” you derive from a single word every day in TW? Your attitude allows me to say “well, it’s probably just a fabrication anyway” when I don’t like what it says. I get to pick and choose.
On one hand, every day you write as though each word is imbued with truth and meaning. On the other hand, you say it is probably written decades/centuries later and just there for political purposes and serves the (evil?) desire of the writer to mislead/deceive for his own agenda. We are supposed to know the difference between a writer with integrity and one with none? You write as though it does not matter. It matters.
Count me a deeply frustrated TW reader wondering if your whole schtick is just serving your own purpose, whatever that is. Who is to say you don’t have some agenda any different than imagined agendas of the writers about David and Solomon? The writers either have integrity or they don’t. If they don’t, then the Bible can be ignored along with TW. It’s just a bunch of interesting mythological stories with morals we may find useful – or not. I personally don’t believe that but that is the inevitable conclusion most any thinking person could make reading your accusation/comment above and elsewhere. Like when you said it does not matter if Exodus really happened. (https://skipmoen.com/2017/05/the-end-and-the-beginning/) It does matter.
I’ve learned much here regarding the history of modern theology and appreciate having things previously confusing become more clear. I have been a financial supporter of TW for a very long time. But if ALL the biblical writers are no better than the 3rd century and later “christian” theologians, then all is meaningless. If they are no better than this fabricated painting in Pavia Italy then who cares? Every writer and painter always lie and no one can be trusted. Everything is simply written for political purposes and the agenda’s of the writers. And none of us can know what has integrity. Like the fictional Solomon said, “all is vanity.”
I don’t buy it.
“I realized that this is an example of the human capacity to alter memories (i.e., history) in order to accomplish a political end. The same thing seems to be true of the David and Solomon stories.”
What?!! A shocking statement. You equate the biblical record to the made up story about Charlemagne? A few months ago you said Exodus might not have happened: https://skipmoen.com/2017/05/the-end-and-the-beginning/.
David and Solomon are just political stories? Is scripture nothing more than fables and myths (with nice morals to the stories) like this story of Charlemagne? Everything was written centuries later in order to fit the agenda of the biblical writer?
The absence of proof about something being true, is not evidence that it isn’t true. Why can’t it be true until proven it’s not? Many hundreds/thousands of details in OT and NT have been questioned by “scientists and experts” only to later be proven accurate and true. I don’t get what you are trying to accomplish. If you succeed in destroying the veracity of scripture why should anyone care about all the “truth” you derive from a single word every day in TW? Because the untrue story still has great meaning?
On one hand, every day you write as though each word is imbued with truth and meaning. On the other hand, you say it is probably written decades/centuries later and just there for political purposes and serves the (evil?) desire of the writer to mislead/deceive for his own agenda. You write as though it does not matter. It matters.
Intellectually and spiritually I will no longer go into the murky doubt and confusion of your depression. You don’t really know what you believe except “try to do good things.” Everything is sand. Fictional Solomon said it best. “All is vanity,” I don’t buy it.
Skip, I am deeply great-full for your labor and what you continue to share with whoso ever will look , read, think, question, pause, meditate and do it all over again. You have said much that has challenged me much, but I was challenged long before I arrived on this seen.None the less I am so thankful for the gifts and talents you use to goad us on, Shalom !
There is only one thing lacking for meat this time and that is the face to face daily walk with others like yourself and ALL those individuals who have contributed in comment and observation speaking when they desire, mostly from their heart of hearts (if there is such a heart) ! It is not easy to be given (laid before us) the jewels and nuggets of gold that you Skip dig up. I am continually challenged to examine my heart , motives, actions and inaction whenever and wherever I find myself in the small community of people that we, my wife and I find ourselves in. The last three and a half years have been a wilderness, YHVH has hemmed us in. We are in exile and we live in Babylon among Buddhist, Atheist, Hedonist, and toss in a few other whatever all with a striking resemblance of me!
The last Rhema I heard from YHVH was ” I brought you to this place to sanctify you ” It was about 13 years ago the same voice said ( as our family of 5 ) walk out the doors of one of the most infamous west coast churches…. ” “you never have to come back here again. ”
I say all this because it may help to put in context the journey we have been on. And every doctrine, creed, presupposition, theory, belief, paradigm, theological argument has been held up to the LIGHT and found wanting.
I can repeat with the utmost confidence “His sheep hear his voice and we follow him”. SO to you Pat Sullivan I commend you for speaking your mind. Like Yeshua said in what ever ” per-version or mis-translation” you read “Johan 5:39,40 You keep examining the Tanakh because you think that in it you have eternal life. Those very Scriptures bear witness to me, but you won’t come to me in order to have life! CJB Truth does not reside in ink and paper. It is the Kodesh that gives life!!!! The logos bears witness to my life experience, not my experience to the logos. And when all is silent and the heavens “seem” like brass I trust, and some times I fall and I get up or in this case I get down (sing the blues a bit) and ask and receive forgiveness, or at least I walk like I have been forgiven, head up but not too high, with a smile on my face and joy in my liver!!!
Rich Pease thank you for your many observations. This is the challenge we have we are not face to face able to stop in the middle of a sentence, give clarification on just what we mean, be it Skip or whom ever is speaking, Not so with Maker of hummingbirds and worms, my joys and sorrows or at least the ONE who gave me the ability to experience them.Those Baruch emotions Amen. His Rehma is like a hammer, it breaks all our misconception, and then like wheat He feeds us after a 40 mile marathon, and water living water, stop straining at a Nat when you have a camel in your soup!
So I don’t recall if it was in The Grammar of God (Aviya Kushner) or The Bible doesn’t say that. (Joel M Hoffman) Perhaps both….?…. that presented the observation “scripture” was not first written! it was passed along from family to family, generation to generation orally. Do you all recall Isaiah 55 who’s thoughts are who’s thoughts ? Like the rain and snow His word (דָּבָר dâbâr) goes forth from HIS mouth and it works, “It Is Not Fiction” Father has not IMHO relegated the finality of His Rhema to paper and ink, What box???
Mark Randall You should speak more often, your perspective has quite a good edge to it IMHO. Do you think that the statments “infallible in the original manuscripts” and “by a preponderance of evidence” is holy writ ? Your use of “Creator of heaven and earth” is sterile, barren, IMHO It seems so. He is not in this context (I think) just creator He is the one who sees me, watches me, knows my ups and downs. Sees me in the bathroom and the bedroom…and that is not sterile ”
The man of God doesn’t make sense either. He acts according to God’s will and purposes. He is counter-cultural. He is an enigma. He can’t always be explained because explanation assumes rationality within the box. And God isn’t in the box. The man of God speaks, thinks, acts and feels outside the box. We encounter him at our peril if we are box thinkers and doers. He pushes us outside our comfort zones. His religious stance is uncomfortable because God is uncomfortable.” In closing it would seem that Father has brought us all to this place in this point in time His yoke is easy and His burden is light, stop kicking against the goads if that is what you are doing. I agape YOU ALL, face to face or not, Baruch Shalom
Hello Bruce
I guess I’m not getting what you mean when you said “Your use of “Creator of heaven and earth” is sterile, barren, IMHO It seems so. He is not in this context…”
I get that understanding/meaning from here; “Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in Adonai his God, who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever; who executes justice for the oppressed, who gives food to the hungry. Adonai sets the prisoners free; Adonai opens the eyes of the blind. Adonai lifts up those who are bowed down; Adonai loves the righteous. Adonai watches over the sojourners; he upholds the widow and the fatherless, but the way of the wicked he brings to ruin. Adonai will reign forever, your God, O Zion, to all generations. Praise Adonai!” (Psalms 146) Do you really see that as “sterile, barren“?
You also asked Do you think that the statments “infallible in the original manuscripts” and “by a preponderance of evidence” is holy writ ? My answer, absolutely not. That’s nothing but my opinion and I would never equate my opinions to His holy writ.
Hi Pat, Humm, grace kindness and mutual respect are benchmarks of Godliness and Righteousness. We are all broken by the dysfunctions of this world since that fateful day when Adam ate of the wrong tree of knowledge. His “know-er” got tweaked and all of our “know-ers” have disruptions now and then since. That pesky brain gets in the way of receiving true knowledge from God. Grace for one another struggles to find truth is really important don’t you think? What you know today might be suspect tomorrow. Particularly what you chose to believe others know. To do so is often a judgment of the motivations of an-others heart. God alone has the capacity to know that stuff.
Sorry Skip with all do respect I can’t jump on this idea train wit you. Human reason, human rational , human interpretations with out the inspiration and motivation of the Holy Spirit leads to death. In my mind that’s eating of the wrong tree, its not the tree of Life.. What I am getting your advancing in this post is that the stories of David and Solomon where crafted as political spin to suite the political powers of that day. Ie David or Soloman or later kings in their Dynasty . I acknowledge the only power manifest in the Holy Scriptures is that of YHVH. It’s fairly obvious that he made a public spectacle of all the other powers that be at the cross. I am very concerned, unless I am entirely miss interpretating your line of thought that your treading on ice here buddy not the rock…In support of Daniels post I must also choose by faith to belive although Yah gave us free will and with it we have been diminishing the glory of his revelation in the word . His power to keep his word is greater than ours to diminish it. He is very much alive and well and guarding his word that not one dot or tiddle will be lost till it all is fufilled.
In this era, post Tree, I have learned there is only one way to know if anything is the truth or not – even the Book – and that is experience. We can toss words around ’til the cows come home about anything at all, even about what ‘truth’ is, and it will all be “sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal” without experience to back it up. This is why witness is where it is at and where it must stay. Now we have only one way to determine the truth of anything and that is, as Yeshua taught, “by its fruit”. If you want to know about anything, go looking for what fruit it bears, whether it be the notion that Yeshua is God or a man, or if the Bible is just a book, or whether it is THE Book. You can find the answers to all these questions by examining the fruit.
The entire planet, almost, acknowledges the Bible and the Christ. From Moslems to Confucians; all the New Age spinoffs do, and even the church of Satan, so I understand (as well as most all the various secret societies, such as Freemasons, etc.) have a Bible on the podium, even though the Church of Satan does have theirs upside down and backwards! None of them, I have seen, have a problem with acknowledging Jesus as a very special man, or the Bible as a very important Book. NONE of them, however, will accept Him as God or the Bible as THE Book; the sole guidance for life.
I took care of, as you all know, a very sick New Age precious person who had her degree in divinity, duly earned at a seminary in Texas taught by ex-nuns. They did many interesting exercises using the Bible, learned many interesting things about the Christ, and learned spiritual formation exercises and contemplative prayer formulas. This person kept a painting of the Christ that supposedly was copied off the Shroud of Turin next to her bed. She said her prayers diligently to the universe and diligently sought to embody the “Christ consciousness” just as she had been taught in seminary, but she never, not once, found real peace. No fruit. She said she could not accept the Bible as the sole source of faith and practice (for she held the traditions of men, too), nor could she accept the Christ as God, for she had to believe that He was only a man who showed us all how to become god ourselves. She died in perfect terror and terrible pain. There was no hope for her to hold.
I believe that Yeshua came as God’s love to us personally, and that the Scripture that tells me that is God’s Word to us, too, and I believe that when 2Tim. 3:16,17 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” I don’t need any other confirmation to tell me whether or not that is true. That entire Book stands on its own legs, as truth itself, to me, because the belief of that in my life has borne fruit and the ring of that truth sings life in my soul. That experience is all the ‘proof’ I need. Halleluah!
Amen sister I’ll ride that train to the last station. With all due respect to our brother Skip his marvelous, incqiisitive and uncompromising mind brings light and exposes shadows. Perhaps one must step into the shadows to better appreciate the light now and then. But like the Valley of Achor that has become our door of hope I do not encourage anyone to camp there for long.
Rabbi David Wolpe expounds these same thoughts,After all he is known in America as the greatest Rabbi and theologian of his time. Now I say this with tongue in cheek. Terms like great and the hottest thing going in Los Angeles is not impressive.This is not a new thought Judaism has had it around for a long time. Have to admit really don’t know if Skip believes it or not ,he really doesn’t say , I do sense a lack of encouragement or exhortation, I pray for any burden we are not privy too Skip,and for shalom you may need.
We know that the Apostle Shaul was very learned, having sat at the feet of Rabban Gamaliel and thus undoubtedly heard every side of the ’70 faces of the diamond’ on every conceivable Jewish idea, thought and historical accountings. He could, no doubt, argue all sides of both the oral and written accounts of all the views of hundreds of esteemed rabbis and scribes from Moshe to Hillel the Elder. But do we ever read in the NT of Shaul’s wrestling or struggles with these issues? He either totally resolved them once for all (doubtful) or understood that airing them publicly was not profitable or wise. He says in II Tim 2:14-17 “Keep reminding people of this, and charge them solemnly before the Lord not to engage in word-battles. They accomplish nothing useful and are a catastrophe for the hearers! Do all you can to present yourself to God as someone worthy of his approval, as a worker with no need to be ashamed, because he deals straightforwardly with the Word of the Truth. But keep away from godless babbling, for those who engage in it will only become more ungodly, and their teaching will eat away at people like gangrene”. CJB
Shaul was an Apostle, Skip is not. Shaul knew his letters were going to be read and scrutinized by the various faith communities (some who were babies in the faith) and therefore he had to be judicious with what he shared. Skip, on the other hand, is writing a blog to those who pay him (at least once, and maybe not enough) for his scholarly Hebraic perspectives and unique personal insights, therefore he may not feel the same constraints that Shaul labored under. One thing I have always admired about Skip is his authenticity. He is open about his struggles, doubts, fears, failures, as well as his victories, growth, changes and hopes. I suspect that if Shaul ever wrote along the same lines as Skip does those responsible for the canonization of the NT quickly discarded them to the dust bin of history. While I (currently) don’t believe there will ever be an addendum to the NT or an upgraded version, if in 10,000 years there is a discussion along those lines I would be among the first to personally nominate some of Skip’s writings to be examined and seriously considered, but certainly not all of them, and this is one of those. The TW’s that cause the most disillusionment, disenfranchisment and (even) disgust I would not submit to the heavenly committee as cannon- worthy, but certainly they would serve as excellent examples of bona fide, extant Skip Moen works that display the brutal struggle and honest sharing of a 21st century messianic disciple. I, for one, rejoice in everything that Skip pens, even the ones I may not agree with or understood. They are the essence of Skip Moen, my teacher, friend and mentor.
Thanks Michael. I love you too. And I will be posting some lengthy comments on this issue tomorrow. Stay tuned.
I concur…and thank Skip for his efforts,few places exist where real disciples can struggle to find real answers in the level of depth and insight brought forth here. We can carry some grace for the struggle and development of our thinking and knowledge, or we are failing to meet the requirements of mutual respect that is Righteousness. Yet as this is a public place and anyone can check we must remember James 3:1 warns us “Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.”
I too concur. What Skip writes often challenges me and makes me ask questions. But isn’t that how we grow and change? I believe Skip writes from the heart and he just poses things for us to think about, consider, mull over, etc. and seek out the answers for ourselves. I don’t agree with everything that Skip writes, but I am thankful and appreciative that he has the courage to write it and share it with us for our own consideration and is not afraid to be challenged on it!
OK…I’m late to this discussion. If you lean on the ‘inspired’ security of the ‘Word’ you have on your shelves than perhaps you should take a look at what Uriel Ben Mordichai and his wife are doing with ancient documents sitting in a university library (available on line). Their letter by letter, word by word comparison with the Greek documents our current English NT is based on shows many alterations, additions and outright failure to include words/sentences in those latter documents we trusted so. If you don’t want to look then keep on with your ‘inspired’ trust with a little spice of man’s free will to write what he chooses. But review what your NT says about the Bereans which is nothing more than they searched the scriptures with excitement as no one else…and they changed their understanding when they heard Paul, and these were people who pretty much ‘knew’ those scriptures.
Richard, can you supply a link to the work you cite?
Hi John. Uriel Ben Mordichai’s work can be linked through a web search engine quite readily. He hosts a weekly (Saturday) free live webinar of that weeks work he and his wife have completed. The documents such as the P46 parchments are held at the University of Michigan’s Papyrology collection but maybe best viewed through Kevinscull.wordpress.com/2010/01/03/p46-index/
But unless you read ancient Greek it will just be Greek to you as it is to me 🙂
I think Uriel uses Logos for a comparative analysis with the two source Greek texts that our NT is based on. Be prepared John to have your faith in the ‘inspired’ text you hold tested.
Thank you! 🙂
Skip,
I agree 100% with this point of view. Inspired or not, the stories in the bible were written by people with all there bias and as you mentioned agendas. Most believe that the authors were not even eye witnesses to the events. My question is where do we go from here? If John 3:16 wasn’t a real quote, then what does that change?