Real Freedom
So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36 NASB
Free – The world is preoccupied with freedom these days. It is current political coinage. In the West, our conception of freedom has been extended to include a doctrine of entitlements and rights no prior civilization could have imagined. Freedom is the watchword of a global civilization bent on bringing liberty and justice to all.
But the believer must guard against such panacea. The believer holds a worldview that is not grounded in civil liberties, inalienable rights and legislated entitlements. For the believer, the Biblical worldview is the only standard for faith and practice. Nationalism, even nationalism coupled with political “freedom,” is of no value if it does not reflect God’s created order. Yeshua gave us a warning about adoption of false freedom when he said, “No man can serve two masters.” It is significant that he did not allow the possibility of independent autonomy as a choice. From Yeshua’s perspective, the options are limited to the choice of masters. Either way is still the way of the slave.
We should not be surprised. Yeshua understood the world from the perspective of a man deeply affected by Hebrew scriptures. When we examine his spiritual heritage (and ours), we discover that the goal of human existence is not freedom at all. The goal and fulfillment of human existence is found in the choice to be a volunteer slave to God. The essence of this goal is found in the Hebrew root ‘bd. This root is the basis of the Hebrew words associated with slave and slavery. Hebrew is the language of slaves. When the nomadic tribe of Jacob settled in Egypt, its social-political structure began a transformation that ended in slavery to Pharaoh. For at least two hundred years, the extended tribe, numbering in the thousands, felt the cruel hand of forced oppression. The experience left an indelible mark on the Hebrews. In fact, the culture of slavery was so ingrained in the mindset of the Hebrews that God was unable to erase its debilitating spiritual effects from an entire generation in the wilderness. When the Hebrews left Egypt and became a separate nation under the hand of God, they did not automatically abandon their ethos formed under slavery. Instead, they defined themselves in terms of past slavery and redemption. God was the God Who led them out of Egypt. The yearly celebration of the exodus event defined their origins. They came from a culture of slaves. Their history was a history of slaves. And Yahweh is the God of slaves.
The Hebrew ‘bd suggests that a follower of YHVH is a slave for life. Of course, it’s voluntary, and because it is voluntary we often forget that we are not independent individuals determining our own fate. The biblical model is not based on the freedom of the individual. Freedom is not the goal. How could it be a right? The goal is ‘bd, a slave for life. What then is freedom? It is slavery to a benevolent master – hear and obey (shema).
Topical Index: free, slave, ‘bd, John 8:36
“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.”
Exodus 4:22-23 (KJV)
Those words
Let my son “free” (go), so that he may serve me…
Became
If the Son makes you “free”, you will be free to serve HaShem…
There is no bigger slave possible than the slave to self.
There is nothing scarier than having to believe that it is ‘all up to me’.
There is nothing more impotent than attempting to your utmost to accomplish love in the flesh.
There is nothing lonelier than thinking reality is a pyramid with self at the top.
There is nothing worse than realizing that reality is just on the other side of the present moment, but that your flesh will always be one step behind, for the present is where the Creator of that present rules, but the only way possible to step into that present is to fall on your knees in the humility of facing your own self annihilation in that supposedly ‘safe’ past.
There is no bigger blow to the ego than to admit that you had it all wrong the first time.
There is no greater relief than to realize all the above.
There is no greater rest than the breath that you draw in the present, safe at last in a kingdom designed perfectly for its subjects.
Freedom from what? Slavery to self.
True slavery to what? The perfection of a Will that will always choose what you would have chosen if you could have been that Willer.
Brer Rabbit: “do whatever you want, but whatever you do, please don’t throw me in dat briar patch!”
Halleluah! Disaster did!
I have experienced a freedom in the sense of freedom to serve Him in the chaos of this world. Such as I can experience the presence of peace when everything is falling apart around me, even events that affect my life.
I don’t understand why, just that Yeshua said I would have peace beyond understanding.
Skip, I heard you say once in a teaching that Hebraic prayers are different than ours, because it is one asking for strength to walk in what is placed before us each day. When I do this the things that come each day give me freedom to trust Him. Big or small.
Sometimes I feel my faith is too simple but then again maybe that’s a good thing. Another freedom to not analyze just to walk?!
This discussion brings to mind Paul in Romans 6:16. Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death or unto righteousness. It becomes clearer and clearer to me. Thanks.
For some reason I am just not tracking with these recent TWs. In John 8:31 Jesus tells those Jews (hoi Ioudaioi) believing in Him to hold to His word (ho logos) if they are His true disciples. Then in verse 32 those believing will know the truth (hē alētheia—not the word for “commandment”/”teaching”/”instruction”, but the word provided in John 1:14, 17, compared with “the Law [nomos] that came through Moses” in 1:17) and the truth will set them free. If Yeshua’s “truth” or “word” is no different from Torah, wouldn’t the Pharisees already know that? In short, there must be some difference between “the truth” (“grace and truth” in John 1:14, 17) and the “Law of Moses” (1:17), aka Torah. I’m not suggesting a complete contrast, but there must be some difference.
Then their reply in 8:33 belies this TW regarding the Hebrew understanding that they’ve always been slaves, and were understood to be YHWH’s slaves: “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?” (NASB).
Jesus doesn’t respond in regards to any sort of understanding that ‘to be a Jew is to be a slave’ in the fashion of this TW (or recounting the Exodus, e.g.). Instead, Yeshua says that to sin is to be a slave—to sin. So, sinning is slavery. Messiah continues on stating that a slave has no place in the family, but a son belongs forever. This harkens back to the prologue, specifically 1:12-13, in which placing one’s belief in the name of the Word, aka Light (to whom John the Baptizer bears witness in 1:6-8), aka Word-made-flesh (to whom the Baptizer bears witness in 1:15) brings the right to become children of God. This implies that it’s belief in the name/Person of Messiah Yeshua that brings the individual out of ‘slavery to sin’ and into freedom.
Given that none of us will ever be without sin—which Robert Lafoy helpfully (at least to me) admitted in a previous thread—how is it that fast-held belief in the Messiah (aka ‘knowing the truth that sets you free’) makes an individual one who is no longer a ‘slave to sin’ but ‘free indeed’?
Hi Craig. I would think that Yeshua is talking about this world (this body, heart of stone, torah is still written on rolls, thus we still sin, then we are still slaves) in contrast of the world to come (new body, heart of flesh, torah written in our hearts by the power of God’s Holy Spirit, thus we no longer sin so we are no longer slaves and can walk straight in God’s ways and fully serve Him… Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:22-27)
Thanks for your reply. But, one of my points is that we do still sin in the here and now (thus, ‘slaves to sin’), even with God’s Holy Spirit. Just so that I’m clear, you are not stating that even with God’s Spirit we will no longer sin in this world, but we will have the ability to not sin only in the world to come, correct?
If that’s the case, what does it mean to ‘stand firm to the end’ in order to have eternal life? I’ve been told it means adhering to Torah. But, then no one can perfectly obey Torah, so we’re back to the beginning.
“For just as through the disobedience of one man {Adam}, many were made sinners {I didn’t do it… just walked into it at birth}, so also through the obedience of one man {Yeshua}, many will be set right forever {had nothing to do with it, either, just received it by faith with gratitude}. Now the Torah came in so that transgression might increase. But where sin increased, grace overflowed even more – so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to eternal life through Messiah Yeshua our Lord” (Romans 5:19 TLV with my comments {})…. Thank God for God:)
It’s correct. We still sin even having God’s Spirit in us… Actually what we have is a “deposit” in our hearts, just the way in biblical times a husband would give a deposit to the family of the bride while he is gone for a while to build a house for them to live once he gets back for his bride… (can you see Yeshua’s word to His disciples?)
The bride then is expected to be prepared for that day to come, maintaining faith in her husband to return to her… keeping herself holy for him, that is, apart from any other man…
Paul’s also explains this to us… (I am using this AMPC translation that explain this idea)
2 Corinthians 1:21-23Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
21 But it is God Who confirms and makes us steadfast and establishes us [in joint fellowship] with you in Christ, and has consecrated and anointed us [[a]enduing us with the gifts of the Holy Spirit];
22 [He has also appropriated and acknowledged us as His by] putting His seal upon us and giving us His [Holy] Spirit in our hearts as the security deposit and guarantee [of the fulfillment of His promise].
Alfred,
OK, glad I understood you. Yet you’ve yet to address Yeshua’s syllogistic argument in John 8:34-36. If one sins–and you’ve stated that all humans do–then one is a “slave to sin”. How does one go from “slave to sin” to a “son that remains forever”?
Hi Craig. Let’s get the big picture… at this moment, in this world, we still sin, so we are still somehow slaves… but in Yeshua, we will resurrect to a new life, a full life with a body that will not see corruption anymore, with a body that will live forever (jeremiah 31:31-34 and ezekiel 36:22-27) and torah will be fully written in our new hearts… it will be like being born again once and for all. Just then, we will be able to live in our real home… with our Father, so we will become a “son that remains forever”.
At our present time, we are all short of the glory of God, as it is written
“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23 NIV
The Master would tell us this in a masterful way:
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:11-32
We all are that son… at the present time… in this world… coming back to Father… to live forever with Him and Yeshua in the world to come!
OK, I see how you harmonized the passage: we’re all currently slaves to sin; in the future, at the eschaton, we’ll be sons/daughters, i.e. free indeed.
There’s one thing that doesn’t quite work for me. Ezekiel 36:26 indicates that a “heart of flesh” along with a new spirit will be given; yet, Paul states that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50-53).
That “heart of flesh” in Ezekiel 36:22 is not to be taken as a literal heart of flesh… it should be visualized against a “heart of stone”… in other words, we have in this world a heart as hard as a stone, we are stubborn to Torah… but in those days, we will have a “soft heart” for Torah, a willing to obey heart, a “heart of flesh”.
2 Corinthians 3:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Of course, the Spirit of the living God has begun to write… but we still have some “stony heart” in us… it is our responsability to clear out lines in our heart that we have written with our sins (repent from sin) so that the Lord can write new lines instead (torah commandments).
We have to keep on going even if we fail sometimes, knowing that what the Lord has started, He surely will finish and we will be perfect…
Philippians 1:6 Amplified Bible (AMP)
I am convinced and confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will [continue to] perfect and complete it until the day of Christ Jesus [the time of His return].
It seems to me that we are to receive both the heart made of flesh and the new spirit simultaneously in the way Ezekiel is worded. In other words, these should occur in the here and now–just like the deposit of the Spirit occurs in the here and now so should the heart made of flesh.
I like that, Craig.
Just musing, here…. (Thanks for the discussion of yesterday) We have been given POWER to obey by means of the Resurrection. Life – which is that power – starts now. Eternity is the Now Forever, and we get to start, well, now; even if we take a sleep intermission at some point!
The Law codified the forms of obedience, but the Spirit promised is the function of that obedience in us. Yeshua promised to live His life (perfect will of His Father) in us by means of that Spirit, but we have to continually choose to stay there. He lives His life in us by means of that foreseen Gift promised in Ezekiel, but that obedience had to be perfected by Yeshua before it could be given to us and our part is to choose that Life by choosing that obedience.
“Imputed righteousness” – that ultimate mystery – is His obedience worked out in us by means of His Spirit. This promise is for today. We appropriate it today. Today we must not harden our hearts against that Spirit. We have been given the power to obey perfectly ( full connection with all) right now. Today. We don’t HAVE TO SIN! We cannot obey in our own power, but, then, we were never expected to. I am the light bulb (and switch), yes, but He is the Light. Halleluah!
Amen and Amen!…and if we stumble and sin – “the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses {present continuous tense: keeps on keeping on, NOW and going forward} us from all sin (1 John 1:7).
Laurita,
I agree with the overall tenor of your response. We don’t have to sin. We have the choice to yield to the Spirit, or not to yield (a poor choice). Theoretically, then, we can be sinless for a time. However, since we are not perfect, we will inevitably, eventually sin. I don’t mean to state this from a glass-half-empty perspective (though I know that my personality bent–and bent it is!–can lean that direction), just as a slight tweak to what you’ve written here.
Having formally engaged with ‘Word of Faith’ adherents who make claims of being sinless, living a ‘Resurrection Life’ in the here and now (aka Manifest Sons of God doctrine), I always like to qualify what I write, however. While I certainly believe Scripture reveals inaugurated eschatology, I vehemently deny fully realized eschatology until the end of all things. I’m not saying you’ve crossed that line–and I don’t think that you did–but I just wanted to add that in for any other reader who may be in any way influenced by that sort of errant doctrine.
Craig, I agree with you. The fruits reveal the truth. Thank you for balance.
We don’t have an excuse to sin, which is my point.
Perfection, heaven style, is different than what we have been taught. Skip is slowly unraveling me on this one.
We need more discussions!
Of course we have begun to have a heart of flesh here and now… otherwise we could not hear and obey HaShem at all… but we still have to keep on walking towards our Father wirh the guidance of His Spirit. It is our duty to be prepared when the time comes! The time when Yeshua returns! Shalom!
Alfredo, your explanations have been gracious and harmonious, too.
There are many mysteries when it comes to exactly HOW Salvation works, but we are going to run a greater risk of getting what has been revealed to us wrong, I think, if we try to focus on the FORMS, or, end results. We focus on past sins (forms, all), manifestation of the character of the Father (Messiah), trinity-vs-One (counting manifestations again), and “doctrines” because we are comfortable with working with the past (perfect). (We like the future just as good because we can put off the present til later.) We can count, slice and dice, and argue til the cows come home, too, when it comes to that past or future. The present? Pregnant with possibility, responsibility, Presence and function: not comfy at all!
YHVH is a God of the present; He has no discernible form because He is never found in the past, where all forms are found. He is pure Function – the ultimate Verb – and if we stay in a place where we can discern the forms – the past of His presence – we will never meet Him. It may be safer there, because there is no action possible there, only ways to manipulate our thoughts and beliefs (hmm, sounds like sermons and school), but we are not called by the God of the past. Living is only possible in the present, and He claims to only be the God of the living. In the present I find that only love is able to show me what to do, and only faith is able to show me how to choose.
Perfection: If I am currently choosing to let Him will through me (the ultimate slave to the choices of Another) then I am connected (love) to all. This is the only perfection we are called to. Let the past exegete itself, and let the dead bury themselves, too. Today is the only day I can choose to hear; today is the only place my heart is not calcified in that past. Today is the place I have to exercise the only responsibility I can fully take, which is to have Him will His perfect will in me. Halleluah!
Laurita. You wrote: “Perfection: If I am currently choosing to let Him will through me (the ultimate slave to the choices of Another) then I am connected (love) to all.” This statement raised a RED FLAG for me and waved it wildly before my eyes and then proceeded to beat me with it till I nearly died! Can you PLEASE clarify what you mean by the concept of letting another spirit “will” THROUGH me (He is a spirit after all- John 4:24, as are the angels Hebrews 1:14, as are demons Mat.12:45). My understanding is that it is WE, not He or any other spirit, who must will everything in our sphere. Yes, we are to will His will, but having been given the glorious gift of free will He will not allow anyone to violate it WITHOUT permission, even Himself. To grant another being – even THE Holy Spirit or Jesus -permission to will for us, in us or through us violates this law and is an open invitation for a deceiving spirit to enter disguised as Jesus or the Holy Spirit and take up residence in order to deceive, control and ultimately destroy our mind, body, soul. I know… it happened to me. So this, for me, is not a matter of semantics or a subtle difference. I trust you and know that your belief system does not allow for any passivity of spirit or welcome spiritism in any of its foul manifestations. So I must ask you, if you (not Him) are willing to clarify, reword or rework this idea of will…His, mine, yours, theirs and ours. Thanks. In love, Michael
Michael, think about it. We were created with HIGHLY permeable spirits. In fact, our spirit was made to “serve”, or, manifest another spirit. This explains the ability to be demonically possessed, but it also shows how it was possible for Yeshua to say that it was not His will, but the Father’s will THROUGH Him.
Yes, our will is sovereign, but what must we do with that sovereignty? Guess the will of God and guess how to do it? Hardly. How?
Love is a spiritual current, but we are spiritual transformer stations, not generating plants. Our will exists to choose His will, but, I ask you, do you know His will at any given moment of your day? If He does not will it THROUGH you, how is it going to happen?
Bob Dylan sings “you gotta serve somebody”, and Skip says that there are two spiritual kingdoms under which we can choose for our spirits to serve. We are going to, by design, be manifesting either one or the other through us at any given time.
I searched the world over for decades for the mythical holy grail of the elusive chalice called “my own way”. I did not find it. It does not exist. That was my honest conclusion.
I believe the flesh, because it does not want responsibility, falls passively for anything that promises to take responsibility. This is the basis for demonic possession. The kingdom of heaven calls for active participation (responsibility), but at no time do we get to just pick up our feet and say “whee!”.
Like our Example showed us, our will exists so that we can choose His continually. My sovereignty was granted so that I can grant His in loving choice. At no time am I to conclude that the bit in my mouth is for me to take in my teeth and just run with it. If I do, I have no defense against the dark kingdom which inspired such a notion.
Laurita, The red flag is still red and has not turned white. I can’t recall any other time where I have spent so much time and energy on composing a response to any other topic or to anyone else. In fact, Arnella is becoming jealous of the hours I am “spending with Laurita”! But it IS as important an issue as I have ever considered. So bear with me. You stated and asked: “Yes, our will is sovereign, but what must we do with that sovereignty? Guess the will of God and guess how to do it? Hardly. How?” . How indeed. You go on to explain how: THROUGH God ( I assume you mean the Holy Spirit, being Trinitarian) and yet, as we are learning from Skip, it is primarily through TORAH and not by mystical revelations, personal visions, dreams or through feelings and leadings, readings and seedings that we know the will of God.
The truth must be re-emphasized that God never “wills” instead of man, and whatever a man does, he alone bears responsibility for his actions. I think where we disagree is where you state that “our spirit was made to “serve”, or, manifest another spirit” and you go on to say “If He does not will it THROUGH you, how is it going to happen?” But think about it…if this is the case whenever there is a sin, failure or even a change of mind, course or direction it must be HIS fault since it is now HE that is the one doing the willing through you. May it NEVER be. Yeshua learned obedience THROUGH the things he suffered…NOT by becoming a medium to channel the Spirit of God and so it is (and isn’t) with us. It must be our spirits that consciously and continually choose His will (not Him in us willing) or we are in danger of not only forfeiting our free will, (heaven forbid) but opening ourselves up to deceving spirits who are more than happy for us to become their passive mediums in order to channel their toxic revelations, visions, dreams, feelings, leadings, readings and seedings through our spirit and mind. Then we (wrongly) think, believe and act as if it were God acting in us by willing THROUGH us. Now we fall into idolatry and wonder why darkness covers our landscape. Again, I know this through personal experience. You asked how do we know His will? We know His will through Torah, conscience, inspired teachers, our Ezer Kenegdo, the community, prayer and yes, even an inner witness. YHWH then leaves US to freely choose His will…or not. Finally, I highly recommend the book by Jessie Penn Lewis: “War Against the Saints”. It is considered by many to be the definitive book on the cause of demonic obsession, oppression and possession. A free pdf version can be downloaded at
www dot apostasynow dot com.
(Note: This edition and specific publishing company are the only one I recommend, as there are counterfeits even in this realm. I am not endorsing or recommending the web sites own book entitled “The Great Dream”; though there are some “good” things contained therein.)
Michael, this is an absolutely HUGE topic and, considering the enormous grief we have all suffered from not understanding it, I don’t understand why people are not jumping up and down and being willing to try to look at this again.
YES! You are right, and I know you must have suffered a whole lot of experience to get where you are. Red flags purchased full price Me too!
You are right also about going about choosing to follow the revealed will of YHVH, and how to figure out what to choose. This is not about “forfeiting our free will”. He never asks us to.
BUT, I cannot help but conclude that we are victims of a mass dialectic that has separated things that should have stayed together, leaving us vulnerable to demonic forces as well as substitute holy spirit phenomena because of it. To think that we ONLY have what we have been told we have, to understand and choose from is keeping us from seeing the truth that would keep us free from temptation as well as oppression.
The vocabulary has been hijacked here, too! We need a new way to talk about this most vital of subjects.
I think of us as sovereign islands in a sea that can choose which continent on either side ‘gets’ us at any given point, or at any given place on our island. Each inch of our islands are going to be subject to one or the other big land mass at any time. We are all mixed subjects. Yes. Neither side has entire islands, BUT, at any given point, I can have either a complete (perfect) love connection, or suffer fracture. My choice. I am composed of moments, not mass.
C.S. Lewis writes in The Screwtape Letters about the subject who dies in the war, but who surrendered his life in his last moments, and the dark side lost him forever. We are poised on the edge of the present. What we choose in that present IS who we are. But that choice also reveals which kingdom is being served. The instant I choose, somebody is going to claim me, based on that choice. How does it claim me? By EMPOWERING that choice. I can choose to murder, but I can not do it unless I have the power to. I can also choose to love, but I can not do that unless I am empowered to, either. The kingdom(s) take over the instant I decide which one I get powered by. In myself, I lack the power to do good or evil. Kingdoms are about power. I am not a kingdom: I am a fiefdom, at best. We lost this understanding somewhere back there in the humanism myths, I am afraid.
Hopefully Arnella can have you back, now.
YES! Thanks for all the attention!It isn’t about being right. It IS about the truth being honed in order to be honored. Our team won! And Arnella cheers the demon’s tears. I agree about the dialectical and the hijacked terms. That’s another battle for another day and most likely for another player. Thanks for allowing me to sharpen my rusty iron. Now it’s time to put away my flags and mop the floor to make up for my inattentive ways towards my wife! Shalom my friend and mentoress. In Him, Michael
I’m only jumping in here to say that I was glad to read a plug for Jessie Penn Lewis’ War on the Saints.
Sorry Laurita. I have read several times what you wrote and still don’t get what are you trying to tell me on “forms”, past, present and future. I’m not used to the kind of terminology that you have used.
By the way, reading subsequent messages in your exchange of ideas with Michael Stanley has not helped me at all either.
That is because I am only partway through it myself. Sorry!
Science has proven that any time we can perceive something, it has solidified (or, formed) and the choices that caused it to be are past; they can not be unchosen or rechosen. Everything we can see in reality is in the past tense, whether it be actions in history (even split second history); matter; or thoughts that have been thought. It is too late to be in on the formation of them. This includes all sensory (flesh) perceptions. Even what we see or hear is split seconds in the past, for it takes that long for our retinas and ear nerves to transmit the data. Dr. Caroline Leaf, a world-renowned brain researcher, has proven that thought itself can only be chosen BEFORE it is thought. By the time we think it, it has built an actual structure (form again) in our brains. We literally can only perceive the past, where nothing can be changed. Those choices and happenstances are here to stay. We are always late to the Present Party in the flesh. This is why we get frustrated and feel so impotent.
Because we are used to to these mortal limitations (stuck in the forms that compose the past), it can be hard to detect where we are tempted to ‘fill in the gaps’ with what we think we know, which is how I understand our brains are created to work. When I find something that does not make total sense, I catch myself wanting to color it in with an approximation, for example. When it comes to the things of God, I think we can be very apt to do it. But there are so many gaps! We have not been given but the bare bones necessary to get us saved. So much is off the page, no matter what we do or think. So much to be taken on faith, which the flesh hates to do.
So over the centuries; from the very beginning, in fact, I can see that folks have been filling in the gaps where faith (an action taken in the true present) should be. with forms that can only be found in the past. especially when they come to the places where God has to be taken on faith. Skip totally turned me on to this in his book God, Time, And The Limits Of Omniscience. There he lists, like, most of the attributes (Greek ‘perfect’ forms, all) we think we know about God (not the ones He has said about Himself, of course) and proceeds to show that they limit God in the process of trying to unlimit Him. This is one viciously difficult piece of gum to chew! Still chewing!
The present – the true present – however, is fluid. This is where choice can operate. There are no forms of anything in the present; the present is only verbs, or the actions of choice, that result in forms (solidified choices).
Hope you are now as muddled as i currently am, because I feel very lonely! Skip totally has upset my apple cart!
Does Paul answer your question in Romans 6:15-23?
David F.,
Yes, for me, though others appear to interpret it a bit differently from the way I do.
Craig, Skip does a good job of being provocative, that’s for sure! He also does a good job of causing us to put our apologia on a more sure foundation. If nothing else, we become more articulate with ourselves and each other. You, too! This is all good.
He who defines the terms, wins. ALL the terms have been hijacked by all sides. We start there.
Define “freedom”. Define “slavery”.
Back to the beginning again.
Then we can talk.
If Yeshua is the true Messiah, and therefore the final authority for interpreting the Torah as God’s instructions for living, then his halacah is the way we are to interpret the text from Moses. This was the debate with the other schools at the time (the Pharisees’ schools). It is not a question of Yeshua’s “law” vs. Moses’ law. It is a question about who will be the interpreter of THE LAW for its daily application. If I follow the interpretation of the Torah according to the Messiah, then I will have freedom, that is, I will know how to live today. That has nothing to do with replacing the Torah with the teachings of Yeshua. He even says he did not come to replace the Torah but to properly interpret it.
Skip, I did not state that Jesus came to replace Torah. And Matthew 5:17 reads “…not came to destroy but to fulfill” (ouk ēlthon katalysai alla plērōsai). The verb pleroō can mean fill, fulfill, complete; but “properly interpret” is an interpretation, not a translation. I’ll accept “complete” with no issues, and one can interpret the text from there.
In rereading my comment here, it seems to convey a tone I did not intend. Sorry ’bout that. While I stand by the gist of it, I’d prefer that it were worded a bit differently.
Craig, John 1:17 is an interesting verse with an interesting context. It literally states, and excuse me getting technical with the translation, “For the Torah through Moses was given [passive voice]; the grace and the truth in/to/through Yeshua Messiah came [or came about] [active/middle voice]. God, no one has ever seen yet, the one-and-only God, the one being in the bosom of the Father, this one he has made known.” v. 17-18. The text seems to make a progression from v. 17 to v. 18. It doesn’t tell us WHEN or even necessarily HOW grace and truth came. It only tells THAT grace and truth came in/to/through the Messiah. Here is the question. Did grace and truth come through Torah? Of course. Torah is replete with examples of grace and truth. In fact, they are EVERYWHERE. So what is John attempting to communicate? Is he saying that Yeshua was present when grace and truth were given through Torah to Moses? Maybe. That is a real possibility, considering that verse 18 carries the theme of revelation to its fullest expression by the Father making Yeshua known. Could it be that John is saying that the fullest expression of God’s revelation of grace and truth came through Messiah at his incarnation? That is also a good possibility. However, this does NOT denigrate Torah. It only gives us a personal yet divine example of what truth looks like with skin on. There are no Greek conjunctions in verse 17 between “the law through Moses” and “grace and truth through Jesus.” I don’t believe we should put any there. The phrases are complementary, not contrary to one another. Shalom.
Paul,
I think you may want to carefully re-read my response. I’m well aware of what the Greek text says, and, yes, there’s no conjunction between the first part and the second part of John 1:17. My comment is, in part, a sort of a continuation from yesterday’s TW, “Getting It Right” (and I haven’t had a chance to respond to your comment there just yet–though you need to re-read Acts 15 carefully). I didn’t say the two halves were contrary (that would require the Greek word alla), I said there’s some difference.
Let’s not try to refute a straw-man version of what I actually wrote.
Craig, Paul and Alfredo
Thank you for these discussions. It shows me the staying in Jerusalem and going from house to house in humbleness breaking bread part of Apostle Paul’s doctrine.
Nothing literal but a way of doing. Keep discussing till the will of YHVH is understood so that the Son Yeshua can be manifested in our lives. And it is this manifestation that sets free not a person or word spoken eons ago.
Hi Jerry and Lisa,
This is a response to your yesterday’s comment about Hanukkah (in case you don’t happen to go back to 12/5 posts.) I hope it’s helpful…
Since Hanukkah (The Feast of Dedication) occurred in the inter testamental times, it is not mentioned in the Torah. But it IS found in the New Testament and Yeshua celebrated it. In John 10:22-23 we read, “Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And, Yeshua walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.”
Also…The first Jewish menorah was the one with 7 branches that was lit by Kohanim (priests) at the Holy Temple during Biblical times in Jerusalem. On the Chanukah menorah, eight of the arms are for the candles which represent the 8 miracle days, and the ninth arm is for the candle used to light the others.
Many Messianics view that ninth (tallest) candle as the Light of Yeshua, from which all the other candles are lit.
Hanukkah can be a wonderful way for believers to share their understanding of the Jewish Messiah with their non believing Jewish friends.
We did see your reply and posted the following there:
Hello. It’s Jerry AND Lisa. Yes, we have already known these things. As we understand it, “Chanukah”, or the “festival of dedication”, was likely made an ordinance by man and we know it was not established by a word of instruction/commandment/law from YHWH. It has become a religious, nationalistic tradition of man in “the Jewish way of living”, and “Messianics” would likely say they keep it “under Messiah”. We personally doubt that Messiah would participate in the traditions of Chanukah, at least as they have come to be “observed”, or Purim, especially (Can you imagine Him wearing a silly costume, shouting “Booo!” when the name of Haman is read in the book of Ester, and getting drunk on Morgan David? Isn’t that the Jewish way of living, even “under Messiah” by “Messianics”?).
But “the Jewish way of living”, even with the caveat of “under Messiah” is a muddy concept and phrase, which is confusing and misleading. How about we stick with, maybe, the Hebraic-, Torah-, Messiah-, or Apostolic-way of living, or “the way of the Prophets” concept and phrase. The “Jewish way of living” though? That’ll have you going and saying prayers and bowing before the “western wall” at the “temple mount”, at first, and then eventually submitting to their Levitical high priest after the order of Aaron and paying homage to “G-d”, “Hashem”, through their sacrificing of animals for the atonement of your sins in their new (probably ecumenical temple – where eventually the abomination of desolation will likely occur), and denying Messiah Yeshua as your Great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Why are those in “the Jewish way of living” acknowledging the “western wall” as though it is the remains of the temple, when Messiah said, “not one stone would be left upon another”? How could it be the western wall? And it’s not the temple mount! But it’s where “the Jews”, at least those of the “Temple Institute” and many Messianics, and even many “Jew-honoring” Christians, want to build their next temple and make their sacrifices under their Aaronic high priest (whoever they determine qualifies, in part by DNA testing) with the services of their Levitical priesthood. Still a nation WITH priests, instead of a nation OF priests. John the Immerser was the last of that line, who Messiah said would be least in the kingdom, because he was after the order of Aaron and not Melchizedek.
Actually (possibly being only slightly dramatic), We think if Messiah were present today at a Chanukah event, He would likely tip over the nine-branch, “Jewish menorah”, like He did the table of the money changers in the temple when He was present there at that time. Nine branches? Eight for the eight days of miracle oil and one for Messiah? How do the Jews explain the ninth branch? Not as representing the Messiah, but Messianics are going to spiritualize it like Christians do the evergreen treen? It’s our understanding that the miracle is likely just a rabbinic myth. Sorry to dishonor anybody’s sacred cow here, but where’s the proof. It’s not even in Scripture. And let’s not get started about an egg on the Pesach plate. At best, we think, Chanukah may have been an “acceptable” holiday (not a “holy” day) and a tradition of man, at first, though that is a far cry from being equal to Torah and His moedim. And Messiah’s presence there in the temple was neither a stamp of approval nor a pronounced repudiation of it. He didn’t speak in favor of it, but He did bring correction by emphasizing His preeminence over it. In fact, He rebuked the Judean leaders there at the time celebrating Chanukah, saying, “You are not my sheep.” They kept Chanukah, but they didn’t believe in or obey Him as Messiah. Do you really think He cares about people keeping Chanukah if they don’t believe in Him or obey Him? I don’t. He cares about being known and obeyed as Messiah. And He said, “Obedience is more to be desired than sacrifice.” And He doesn’t need our clever ideas of how to make Him known to Jews, I.e. via a nine-branch menorah or a Christmas tree or an Easter bunny and eggs.
Christianity has done a similar thing with Christmas trees and Christmas as Judaism has done with Chanukah and the menorah, though the Christmas tree was not originally used in the temple as the menorah was, and then perverted. It did it the other way around. But it’s like changing the sabbath from the 7th day to Sunday. Man cannot make something “holy” that YHWH has not made “holy”. Neither a nine-branch menorah or an evergreen tree or a day of the week…..or a PIG, for that matter. You can’t pray over bacon and expect it to make the pig from which it came, “clean”. Only YHWH determines what is “holy”, including objects, animals, people, and times and seasons. Man doesn’t. So why should we elevate man-made holidays and traditions to be as though they are as important as the Sabbath, the Feast Days, the Torah, and above all, Messiah? Trying to use something of man as a “wonderful way for believers to share their understanding of the Jewish Messiah” smacks of humanism to us. It’s almost like saying that using Santa Claus is a wonderful way to share about Yeshua. We don’t think so.
And, I responded on the Dec. 5th TW (Getting it Right)
Wow great discussion, getting to the very heart of the matter. Paul called himself(he also defined it as the highest calling ) “a bond slave of Christ”. This then is a defenition of alignment with the Kingdom of YHVH rather than the kingdom of this present world ‘s systemn that is in rebellion to YHVH? I think so. Regarding correct interpretations. If we want to be “getting it right” (that is to get our perspective and interpretation of the scriptures correct ) Art Katz suggests that we must engage with and be “in” the same spirit as the author who pend the scriptures we are interpreting. That according to his book “The Spite of Truth” is the Rauch ha Kodesh. That same Spirit that Messiah came “full of”. Otherwise he further suggests we need an exaustive interpretive grid written out clearly and definitely definining every possible situation or condition. Is this not like the Mishna or Talmud of the writing of the “Church fathers”? The pressing personal question is are we actually aware when we are in that Spirit vs the spirit of human reason, intelectual or spiritual pride or some other lesser spirits. Hummm…
Ps Thanks so very much for finding the edit button, my vanity or pride of presentation is gratified. Perhaps the implications on my reputation purposed by my speed demon will be thwarted !
This comment is aside from the thread at hand but nevertheless in Today’s Word, Skip repeats a common misconception that the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, “for at least two hundred years”. (Worse yet, the movie, The Ten Commandments, several times states they were slaves for 400 years.) But Biblical math figures they were only in Egypt a total of 215 years and they could not have been slaves for any more than 144 years maximum, and more likely, it was somewhere around 112 years.
It has long been known that using only a few Bible verses and simple arithmetic comes to this conclusion despite the fact that translations from the Hebrew Masoretic (which are most translations) of Exodus 12:40 say the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years.
A little study and math will find that Moses’ grandfather moved to Egypt with Jacob and that there was only 64 years between the death of Joseph and the birth of Moses.
The issue boils down to this, the Septuagint (and other sources) state in Exodus 12:40 that Israel was in Egypt AND CANAAN for 430 years, whereas the Masoretic, which was written over a thousand years later, had somehow dropped the words, “and Canaan”. This difference explains and harmonizes everything and is documented extremely well, simply and convincingly in a fast moving 12-minute video you will certainly enjoy found at
www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=0MO9X_TGGqo
Daniel
Thank you for this insightful information.
The reference to the 144 Years seems to explain the 144 000 souls that are saved in Revelation. Not saying this is true or a fact. It just makes sense to me as way only 144000 is mentioned as saved with the mark of the lamb on their forehead while a great multitude of uncountable somewhere else is implied to be saved.
This will also then explain why around 1000 years seem to be the time passed since the entrance into Canaan and the birth of the Messiah. Mathematical calculations to understand the manifestation of setting free. Not a word spoken but thousands of misunderstood words until eventually the light hits us between the ears and blinds us… And we can say the same as apostle Paul, Who are you Lord… Then the tasking as a called servant begins – One truly free from sin.
Thanks for the correction