Why Should I Believe?
For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” Luke 7:47 NASB
She loved much – What path did you follow in order to come into God’s presence? Before you answer, consider this: each one of us follows his own path. No path is more sacred than another. None is more important than another. Because we are all individually cared for by the Father, and our individual traumas, choices and consequences are different, no two paths are exactly the same. What matters is only that we follow, that we pursue God no matter what path we take to get there.
Of course, in our “one-size-fits-all” evangelical world, we are inclined to reject this idea. We bristle at the thought that “all roads lead to God.” That is not what I am saying. Since there is only One True God, the goal of any one of our various paths is to reach fellowship with Him, and He comes with only One Name. No, I’m not advocating worldwide ecumenism. What I am advocating is compassion. We may all be struggling to reach the goal of fellowship, but how we get there will be different for each of us. What is needed among the body is deeply felt compassion. I don’t have to be like you in order to be His servant.
You’ll agree, I’m sure. But let’s put this agreement to the test. In my experience, Western belief is far more about having the right statements than it is about having the right actions. I find that those of us who truly wrestle with the text, who try to come at it from non-conventional perspectives, encounter others who have assumed that easy idioms should replace spiritual struggle. When I ask serious questions about biblical history, I am confronted by the shibboleth of certainty, that is, “if you don’t believe the Joshua account then you deny all of Scripture” kind of thinking. If I wonder how Yeshua interacted with prostitutes, I encountered shocked morality if I actually speak with prostitutes. If I question the theological dogma of forgiveness on the cross, I am accused of “being Jewish.” I am sure you have experienced something similar.
But this doesn’t seem to be the pattern of scriptural characters. Frankovic provides an important insight: “A pattern seems to be emerging: first, an individual experiences the redemptive power of God, and then, he or she responds to that redemptive encounter. The normal response of an individual after he or she has been redeemed, saved, set free, healed and /or forgiven by God is, ‘Yes, please reign over me.’”[1]
Now we see the importance of compassion—compassion with each other believer. It appears that those who love much are the ones whose lives have been most devastated, who have felt the brunt of rejection more deeply than others. Or perhaps we all are really terribly wounded, and only a few of us are willing to look into those broken parts of our journey. It is so much easier to bury the hurt under religious proclamation.
But we wonder, don’t we, if we really can believe until we have tasted the dregs of our lives and been rescued? Oh, we can accept a series of theologically approved statements. Perhaps we did even as children. But is that really believing? What does “salvation” mean to someone who is not dying?
Topical Index: love much, religious belief, trauma, salvation, Luke 7:47
[1] Joseph Frankovic, The Kingdom of Heaven (HaKesher, Inc., 1998), pp. 17-18.
Oh! The is so beautifully timed! It’s not so insane that what you write about is EVERY human’s struggle! In this TW-I feel Love brings about connection and creates an even surface in which to begin. What does ANY of this life mean without love?! Some days it like drinking from a fire hose – there is so much fruit to eat after I gather …… other days, I desperately need this kind of love to even breathe and cannot eat any fruit. Such an interesting TW.
I desire this attitude to love deeply- at my very core!
May it be said of me…. that I loved….and may I show it to all the “me’s” I encounter each day….. AND you and you and you and you and…..
“The normal response of an individual after he or she has been redeemed, saved, set free, healed and /or forgiven by God is, ‘Yes, please reign over me.’”
Sorry, and really, really, really, no disrespect intended, but this statement actually makes me laugh. Not at you, Skip, or Frankovic, per se, but such a claim, given what I know of human nature, including my own. I’d agree that this OUGHT to be the normal response and It may be what some SAY, but even after miraculous help from God, this is still not the normal true response of any human, is it? Maybe “Yes, please keep helping me”, “Yes, please reign over others for me”, but not “Yes, please reign OVER ME”. No. I think the normal response is, “Please keep giving me evidence why I should believe and trust more, and I might keep growing in truly wanting You to reign over me”. After being redeemed, saved, set free, healed and/or forgiven by God, we may love more, but that is quite a different matter than being reigned over, I’d say.
“Yes, please reign OVER ME.” I’m still laughing…..
Perhaps sorrow would be a more appropriate response than laughter.
Sorrow that human nature is like that. For sure! Sorrow someone makes such high claims of human nature? Perhaps. But I will choose to agree to disagree with you about that. I think THAT is humorous. Maybe sadly humorous, but humorous just the same. However, PLEASE, perhaps we can stick with DISCUSSING IDEAS, instead of personal critiques and judgments, like what is the true normal human response of having been redeemed, saved, set free, healed and/or forgiven by God. Is it “Yes, please reign over me”?
Hi Jerry and Lisa,
Just an observation here…you two often frame your posts with a series of questions/demands, usually directed at a specific individual’s previous post.
Sometimes, it’s difficult to know if you are genuinely searching for the answers to those questions or if you’re just looking to entrap someone, anticipating an answer you will disagree with, and can then justify going into attack mode.
It might be more helpful if you would share your own personal thoughts to the questions you so often pose. Then, try inviting (rather than demanding) others to respond.
When disagreements arise, hopefully friendly and respectful dialogs will ensue. Perhaps one or both of you come from educational backgrounds?…your posts often give the appearance of a teacher grilling his/her students for the “right” answers. But, this is not a class room, posts are not graded, and people are often hesitant to respond if they feel they will be pounced on for what you consider a “wrong answer.” Hope this is helpful.
Sorry you’re having personal problems with these communications, again. Considerations will be given to your input. However, personal thoughts, opinions, and feelings about an idea have been shared. Others are invited to respond or not. The questions are sincere. There is no demand being made. There is also allowance, permission, and encouragement to not read or reply, as well, if that is best, and to just “let it be”. Here to discuss ideas, which may include opinions and feelings, but hopefully nothing personal, as that is the intent and effort being made. Requesting to refrain from communicating all the continued personal observations, personal analysis, personal critiques, to stop trying to moderate the conversation on a personal level, and to stay focused on sharing of ideas about the topic at hand. Hope this is helpful.
At the risk of butting in to someone else’s business, which I don’t think I am, may I ask why you chose to address your response this way? I know you have a choice in how you elect to conduct yourself, but it all has consequences. If you’re truly here to learn and share, one would think that you would frame your responses in a manner that would entice good and valuable conversing of ideas. If people here are “taking it personal” and that seems to be the problem, does it really matter? You will still lose your voice eventually because your opinions won’t be considered. I always assume that people who respond negatively do so because they are trained to it and don’t realize what they are doing. Unfortunately I’m mostly proven wrong in the hope that they desire to change.
I have just posted what is essentially the same thing. Thanks Robert. Your approach is admirable.
As I mentioned before, this blog is not a place where you are free to say whatever you want with regard to another person’s view. Civility, compassion and discretion are required. If you can’t do that, it’s time to find another site. Do you understand? Sharing feelings that impugn someone else who is a blog commentator is not “necessary.”
True that!
To answer your question, I think you have to ask the question “what is salvation?”
Salvation, according to the typical model we got taught by conventional Christianity, anyway, is something that got done when we weren’t looking (kinda like grace is something that happens only when we aren’t obeying the Law? Um, did I just say something stupid?). However, I think true salvation is reconnection of the fracture between us and all else (which only happens in real time). Salvaging is a present tense operation. The consequence of that reconnection is that we have access to love again. It is love that gives us the response to itself. It is love that loves itself. Faith is a gift; love is a gift; gratitude is a gift, and fidelity and humility – they are all gifts that come in with the love tide. When we practice the humility required to accept the gifts (which is repentance of not accepting them), they get done through us. These are not things we ‘give’ to God; they are actions (the verbs of God) we acquiesce to be done through us.
It is up to us to do nothing else but choose to repent and obey; the rest gets done THROUGH us, for that is what love is, and when we let it flow, we are automatically – already – in submission to the Source of that love. Salvation by works teaches that we have to do the work but I think salvation in actuality returns us to the condition where God is free to work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. I know I tried for decades to manufacture the above stuff (works) and got exactly nowhere. Most of us, I dare say, are still in the works place most of the time.
Salvation is an ongoing phenomenon on our part, even though it is finished on His, but our part of accepting that saving connection each and every minute IS submission. God can only be met in the present.
Yes- I pray for that often, actually I intensely long and desire for my righteous King to come rule over me. No laughter there.
Ah, but aren’t those “other” responses the same thing? If I come to you to get what I didn’t have before, (help, the empowerment of rule, evidence for trust) haven’t I submitted myself to your authority? It’s not a matter of reigning over me as much as it’s a matter of who’s reigning and the purpose of it. The attempt to remove oneself from religion is a good example. There is one who coined the phrase, “religion is the opiate of the masses”…..and then set about attempting to make us drug free. Trouble is, religion is at the core of who we are and the only thing that was proven is that we can’t escape religion, we can only swap it for another. I find an interesting correlation in that governments that desire to eliminate God under the pretenses of the well being of the people have outstretched the destruction by far of those they so eagerly point out. In the same way, the individual atheist in the attempt to remove themselves from God becomes the most religious of all. The average atheist holds to their convictions with a fervor that would make the most staunch of evangelicals blush with envy. It’s the same with reigning, you may have a choice at the moment, or not, of who rules over you but when you’re delivered from one you only step into another. YHVH or Egypt. Being governed is also at the core of our being, if you don’t believe that, watch the news.
Laugh all you want, but my experience was otherwise. What I found was that if a person doesn’t want God to reign over him/her, then that person isn’t going to keep on getting redemption, salvation, freedom, healing, etc. You have to acknowledge God’s lordship in order to continue receiving the benefits. I don’t do it perfectly, but I know that a desire for God’s reign is necessary for me to keep receiving the good things. I think a lot of people are told that all they have to do to live the good life is “believe.” This, of course, leads to a false hope.
Hi Thomas. My laughter was not as you suppose (and I believe you’re not alone in misunderstanding). I totally agree with your statement and have my entire life of faith. But that’s the easy part, isn’t it? To believe and say these things, even like, “Reign over me”. However, I wish I could have communicated more clearly or that you (and maybe others too) would have maybe re-read and more clearly understand my original comment. What I said I found humorous was, not the idea of God reigning over us (that to me is ridiculous, but you don’t know me), but, the statement that man’s “normal response” is, “Yes, please reign over me.” That is what I found humorous. Sorry if that offends anyone. I’m laughing at an idea which to me is clearly absurd and I would have thought agreed to by any believer in what the scriptures clearly reveal about the true “normal” nature of man.
Think of Messiah’s parable of the 10 healed lepers wherein only one returned even to give thanks, not to speak of asking Him to reign over them. I think that is closer to what is normal and this other statement is an overly elevated view of the true nature of man, to think that it is the “normal (true and sincere) response” of mankind to want anyone to reign over us, even including God who redeems, saves, sets free, heals and/or forgives.
I think it is easy to say the words or sing it in a song, “Reign over me”, but to truly and sincerely desire to be reigned over and to submit in obedience to His reigning over us? The claim that that is normal is, to me, ridiculously and humorously not true. If that were so, wouldn’t there be a whole lot more obedience going on around here by the myriads and myriads of people, including even those of us here on this thread, who have had such experiences with God? No. It is not normal and we all ought to be humble enough to admit that this is the truth about what we are actually like and to find this statement of what is normal, at least somewhat humorous.
Does anyone here want to claim that it is the normal response of mankind when so blessed by God, to genuinely and sincerely want even God to reign over us and that such a “normal response” is clearly and consistently shown to be the true nature of man by obedience to His commandments. As I said, it ought to be, but it isn’t. That is sorrowful, but the claim of that as normal, is humorous, to me.
We may progress in wanting God to reign over us. But the truth is we continue to resist Him and want Him to continually give us more and more reasons for us to believe and trust Him before we will obey Him. Now that is a sorrowful situation and that’s what make this other claim of what is normal, to me, humorous and worthy of being joked about so that the truth would be clearly put forth. “Let God be true even if every man is a liar.”
Blame me, if you’d like, for not communicating clearly enough what I meant, unless anyone would like to be as humble as I have been judged to not be, and acknowledge that they were too quick in their conclusions, jumping on the band wagon of crying “foul”, of what I was really trying to convey, and that their conclusions were erroneous. Otherwise, each of us may believe what we will and I will be happy to submit to the Master as the final Judge.
It just seems you simply don’t get it, here. I don’t know you, your history or what’s really going on in your life but, being in a community is first and foremost about the relationships. We serve a God that is first and foremost about relationships. Granted this is a blog but nonetheless is comprised of people that seek community and relationship. Some of which have been here a very long time.
While it’s certainly very hard to determine the tone or intention of someone’s comments, it really isn’t too tough to “feel” those tones and intentions. Especially if it happens over and over.
Honestly, I think you most likely have some good input to give to this community but, it just simply isn’t coming through in your comments. If it’s seriously your intention to stay around, interact with others here, be a contributor rather than a separator, then please, think about what you’ve said, how you respond or how you make statements, as if your the one reading them for the first time without knowing the person writing them. Then think about them and decide if what your writing is truly what you wanted to say. I’m just sayin…
There were several times in my life when my “salvation” or what I deemed salvation” were definitely a laughable time when I look back. Mostly they were times when my bargaining power was at full play. Those times were definitely not out of my own desperation for life but desperation to escape something uncomfortable that I wanted to be differant. Not me different just my situation…….so when I look back on those times being completely honest I can understand what your post appears to be saying.
When I truly red a place of brokenness that’s when I truly loved much and cried for Him to reign over me!!!!!!
Actually am I there right now? Probably not in all honesty. Mostly because everything is pretty calm in my personal life at this present time. Which make me sorta nervous and question of i want things calm or if I’d rather have some chaos so I remain desperate for Him.
Make sense?
Definitely makes sense! Sounds very self-honest and truthful. “Mostly they were times when my bargaining power was at full play.” Quite funny, in a somewhat sad sort of way, but funny, nonetheless. Even in what we think is our best moment of humbling ourselves before YHVH and asking Him to reign over us, whether out of desperation or some other pious intent, if we are truly honest with ourselves, we should admit, we are “normally” not, by nature, as trusting, fearing, loving, sincere, grateful, “holy”, humble, surrendered, and obedient as we like to think, no matter how sincere and stirred in our affections we are about how good YHVH is and has been to us. We only must wait a few minutes or hours or maybe a day or two, and we will be reminded by the Ruach ha-Kodesh, how easily inclined we are to not be like YHVH, if we have even received the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
Even in our public or private prayers, there are two kinds of sorrow, according to the Scriptures. There’s a godly sorrow that leads to repentance and eternal life, and there’s a sorrow of the world that leads to death. Even in our earnest prayers with tears and weeping, if we have ever even had tears or wept before Him, we think and say we “repent” and ask YHVH to reign over us, but is it pure? Or are we crying because our sin has been found out, the consequences of our sin are painful or disappointing, we now cannot continue in the sin which we have loved, we are making pretense that we are truly sorrowful but are truly not and are merely seeking pity or trying to manipulate YHVH and/or others, we are sinfully unbelieving and thinking and feeling we are hopeless and are ensnared in a stronghold of sin which we believe we cannot escape because we are deceived and choose to keep believing a lie of temptation or condemnation? And the list of the types of worldly sorrow, at best mixed with some godly sorrow, is no doubt longer than this one. I’ve got at least a short story book full of them that stand out in my memory, despite my earnest intent and YHVH’s merciful, faithful, and unmerited favor to receive my weak offerings of godly sorrow and repentance and to grant me forgiveness and help anyways.
“Our best works are shot through with sin and contain something for which we need to be forgiven.” [J.I. Packer]
Nevertheless, let us at least keep saying, “Yes, please reign over me.” You never know, there might be some grain of true faith, sincerity, and surrendered trust, and maybe He will be merciful and grant us true repentance, and receive our offering anyways. What else can we do but try our best and trust Him to do the rest?
In Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis writes “The idea that “being in love” is the only reason for remaining married really leaves no room for marriage as a contract or promise at all. If love is the whole thing, then the promise can add nothing; and if it adds nothing, then it should not be made. The curious thing is that lovers themselves, while they remain really in love, know this better than those who talk about love. As Chesterton pointed out, those who are in love have a natural inclination to bind themselves by promises. Love songs all over the world are full of vows of eternal constancy. The Christian law is not forcing upon the passion of love something which is foreign to that passion’s own nature: it is demanding that lovers should take seriously something which their passion of itself impels them to do.”
Love is surrender; love is vulnerability to another; love seeks the happiness of another at cost to the self. Love is the ultimate trust issue. Skip has been going over and over this.
We all have trust issues; we all feel unsafe. We feel that way because we believe things that are not so; or (more likely) we don’t have enough information to believe things that are so. Where do we get this new and vital information that we lack? At the end of the line; at the end of our own ‘way’; at the end of our ‘own’ resources, hope, belief systems, or health. The capacity to turn around and create the space to embrace what does work is created by the devastation of all that didn’t. This is why Yeshua said He came to save the lost; there is nothing that can be done for those who aren’t there yet.
It takes honesty to admit that the service of self is only travesty and tyranny, but that honesty is cheap enough for anyone who is suffering enough to admit they have nothing left to lose. It is easy to put trust in the reign of Another when the reign of self collapses. Only the lost can be found; only the sick can be healed; and only the dying can be reborn. The rest of us aren’t even to the starting line.
True, deeper pain senses deeper relief.
The degree of our realization of any pain caused by sinful deceptions
and errors, can be the degree of gratitude we experience from recognizing
God’s forgiveness. And we are all different in our realizations.
But I personally believe those who have experienced life’s deepest wounds,
are in position to experience the highest levels of joy and thankfulness from
knowing God’s faithful and loving forgiveness.
And, yes, that gratitude is usually a key foundation of one’s belief. It was for me.
This is a great post Skip. One of your greatest for it is lead from the heart not the head. It reveals a deep heart commitment to the God who is love. Yet that God and his truest expression of himself, His Messiah Yeshua, is also TRUTH. Yet TRUTH is love and loves with profound compassion. Somehow without compromising one iota of his TRUTH. It is we who are convoluted, self justifying, self serving, vain and conceited. You said Skip”. It is so much easier to bury the hurt under religious proclamation.” This form of justification and hiding leads to much of the pain and hurt inflicted by the religious on others. I have seen much suffering at this cross. My beloved wife Kathryn (the great) shares “More evil has been done from selfishness than wickedness”. Yes that too is truth. Those who abuse become abusers and blame their victims the why their perpetrators did. The compassion and acceptance you suggest above is the way to end the pain chain of religious isolation, persecutions, judgments and abuses. All this to say the God of compassion is real, his love is real and we who are his learn more daily of both his reality and his compassion. Yet His truth, His reality IS, and it will remain how it IS no matter what others choose to believe about it. We will see Him one day face to face as He IS and we then will know and glorious will be that knowing. In the mean time we learn. Blessings and Shalom to my precious brethren it is an honor to share this journey and the reality of it together…
I so enjoy the comments of Skip’s TW. Most times I have to search words so I understand what was said. BUT, the LOVE of those who post here is VERY real! MY understanding (just to share). My salvation, was and is, I was given the chance to redeem my soul from being erased by accepting the love of the one who created me.The sins I committed can not be erased, but I have been given the opportunity to learn how to love by how I have been loved and am being loved by the One who loves. It has been a long journey and I am NOT the best at learning, but He is patient! Learning to LOVE Him and our brothers and sister is the Salvation, “Repenting” Returning to the One who loves us is the Salvation, Without Him we are NOT. Shalom Aleichem!
Skip- I love this. (What does “salvation” mean to someone who is not dying?) Thanks for the reminder! I personally needed it this morning.
Personally, I don’t long for the Father to rule over me. As a matter of fact that phrasing makes me shudder inwardly, the reasoning behind which is most likely my culture. It’s a terminology thing. But I DO long to know my God, to hear His voice, and obey by faith. In the end, it’s the same thing as His ruling over me.