Primal Dream (1)
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28 NASB
Know – Paul says that we know God is working in everything to bring about His purpose. That’s great for Paul, but what about you and me? Do you actually know that God is behind it all or do you simply affirm this faith proposition and then hope for the best? In order to respond to what seems to be a completely counterintuitive statement, we have to separate Paul’s terms from our assumptions. We can start with this verb, oida.
First we should notice that Paul does not use the common Greek verb for knowing from observable evidence. That verb is ginosko, and even though the verbs are “more or less synonymous,” there is a subtle difference. Paul is not asserting (primarily) that we can gather this conclusion by simply observing how the world works. In point of fact, if we simply look at the way of the world, we will probably arrive at Qohelet’s conclusion, that is, nothing much really matters. But Paul is not an inferential empiricist (someone who draws conclusions from observation like good ol’ Sherlock). Paul is seeped in rabbinic thinking. That means he draws his conclusions from deeper levels, from connections that are not so apparent. That’s why he uses oida. It describes knowing that results from an intuitive feeling about reality. In other words, Paul is pointing us toward paradigm issues. He wants us to think about how the world works from God’s point of view, not ours.
That’s why Paul can essentially assert that we are accountable for not taking this point of view. It isn’t simply a matter of not getting the “facts” right. No, this is about seeing something that isn’t obvious, namely, the implications of a supreme, sovereign God. A man who does not see that God is working through every actual event is culpable for this mistake. In opposition to the abstract knowledge of ginosko, oida demands action. Oida is about obedience. Paul is not simply asserting the theological truth that God is in charge. He is actually saying that because God is in charge, you and I are required to take a different view of the world. We are to see the world as a manifestation of God’s invisible hand driving creation toward its completion.
God began this process with Adam. He hasn’t stopped. He won’t stop until the Messiah lays all the kingdoms of the earth at His feet. Since we are part of this cosmic purpose, we are not allowed to treat events as if they were purposeless, hopeless or unintelligible. Oh, they might seem that way, but we are assured it isn’t. If you follow a supreme, sovereign God. Your primal scream—the injustice of it all—is converted to God’s primal dream—His fully manifest glory in the biggest of all pictures.
Topical Index: know, oida, ginosko, Romans 8:28
It seems to me the Rabbis and mankind in general are more interested Oida, or ginosko while the real point is that God is focused on Yada. How and what we know has a direct corilation in my mind to how we go about knowing it. The rabbis and most theologians seem to be highly intelectual. Since God is spirit it follows his knowing is less cognatetive and more wholistic? ” In him we live and move and have our being” sayes Paul, (as I recall)? Come on now who said “I think therfore I am”? Thats insanity in my book. We live because we breath, and feel, see, smell taste and yes fornicate and far to often we think about it all rather than just wholeheartidly enjoying it. That’s my two cents, after spending a few days ruminating on the idea of knowing, seriously it’s been stewin on my mind. Remember it was a tree of knowledge that effected everything. How we go about knowing is seriously important and for me these days intelectual considerations are the least of my concerns. I want to be fully engaged with life and I am finding my rational mind is more of a hindrance than an asset in the persuit. I just finished reading Rabbi Forhmans book “The beast that couches at the door” While it was profound in many senses it also underlined to me just why it was the gift of the Spirit that was the harbinger of the kingdom comeing at last , not the logos.
In the book “Tortured For Christ”, Richard Wurmbrand writes about torture so horrific that he and his comrades forget all that they believed; they even forget the name of Jesus; there is simply no “ginosko” knowledge left, but they still held on to what their brains could not remember, and it sustained them.
I think there is ‘knowing’ in the brain, and then there is the knowing of experience. We must store experience in a different place. I think those who are able to hold on no matter what can do so because they did not just think thoughts in their head; they actually have experienced what they believe in their lives. After all, Skip has taught that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was really a tree of experience. It is not the mysteries we seek to be initiated into; it is the actions we bare ourselves to, that our paradigms ultimately are built out of. I have wondered all my life what the house built on sand Yeshua was referring to was built on; I think I ‘know’ now. In my experience, the floods of life overwhelmed all that I held dear in my head and washed it away, but what I had experienced remained. Yeshua said that He was the Rock we are to build on, but I think the only way to build on Him is to actually experience Him. Brain knowledge to follow after.
P.S. the premier of the new movie put out by his organization (The Voice Of The Martyrs) of Richard Wurmbrand’s life, called “Tortured For Christ”, is coming soon to selected (probably mostly private) theaters near you on March 5th. You can also arrange to show this movie to your own groups. Go online to find out more!
Humm the tree of knowledge an expression of experiance? I thought it was an expression of judgment. Now you got me thinking agin darn it (links?),,,,
Skip says the Hebrew word we translate “know” really means “experience”.
Similar usage for “and Adam knew his wife”. I don’t think making babies is a cognitive thought process.
What, you never heard the phrase “pregnant with thought”?
And also “to see”
Thank you, Shelley!
I have thought a good deal about the difference between what the world (particularly what the Western world) means when we use the word “knowledge”, and what the Bible means. I think Greek dualism may be present in our usage of the word, because to us it primarily means facts we can memorize in our heads, vs. a connection to real life experiences. I can memorize perfect nonsense, but still label it “knowledge” – and store it that way, too – but I am beginning to think true knowledge has to be tied to reality; it has to actually match reality and work in reality. A whole lot of what we call “head knowledge” is, to be perfectly honest, irrelevant to useful function in the real world. It originates out of arrogance, greed, wishful thinking or superstition and we would be better off if we never memorized it. I don’t think that kind of ‘knowledge’ is what the word “yada” means.
Our intuition, emotion and even perception arise out of our paradigm, which is built upon our past choices. To the extent those choices match well with reality (connection, or, love) the paradigm works well; but to the extent we have a history of poor choices to inform us our intuition, emotions, and perceptions are going to be messed up. (I think some people may have theirs completely messed up!) This is knowledge that is NOT based in the “fear of the Lord”, so therefore does not result in function, or, dealing with reality on its own terms.
In that context, you could have a person who experienced falseness (lets call it what it is; a lack of love) of some sort, or who has had a poor history of wrong teaching that resulted in intuitive reactions, perceptions and FEARS coming out of all that, that leaves them unable to interact with reality on its own terms. We call this condition mental or emotional illness; this essential fracture of a (NONFUNCTIONAL) knowledge base from the reality we have to use it in.
All true wisdom is based upon the “fear of the Lord”; this is knowledge that matches His creation. False knowledge, or, “science falsely so called”, is going to be based upon a fear (experience-primed reaction) of some sort of illusion, or, lie. Some people have experienced nothing but lies, it seems, and the result is a messed up head which results in even more stress. I don’t think truth EVER stressed anybody (except those who were disagreeing with it, of course: well, that would be all of us at least some of the time!).
Thank you so much for helping me to think more. I think your comments are thoughtful and I appreciate them, too. May you have a blessed day!
Greek, ginosko is know by experience, Oida is know by intuition; yet Hebrew yada, according to Brown Driver Briggs, seems to be both intuition or perception AND experience?
“The reason some of us have not entered into the EXPERIANCE of sanctification is that we have not realized the meaning of sanctification from God’s perspective”. Oswald Chambers (Feb 8 morning) “Abraham surrendered himself entirely to the supernatural God . Have you got hold of a supernatural God? NOT DO YOU KNOW what God is going to do. You cannot KNOW , but you have faith in Him and therfore He can do what He likes”. (O.C. Evening) hummm…..
I’m in the boat.
If Yeshua is prompted to stop a storm, He does.
If He wishes to stay sleeping, He will.
It’s His boat. He keeps it afloat. He keeps it on course.
And I’m with Him hook, line and sinker!
exquisite simplicity revealing profundity…
Hi Rich. I LOVE this. I posted this on my FB … giving you credit of course. I thought it would be a wonderful ‘thought’ to start someone’s day! Thank you.
And In the End…
For the glory of God. Amen! Once again, (this time with feeling!), “The way we may know our future is by remembering our past.” History (specifically our history with God or better yet, God’s history with all His children) is not “random,” but rather “instructive.” It is with 20/20 hindsight that we may “predict” our future.
Fr’instance, we know, (according to the word of God), God NEVER changes!! Not only is God “good” — He is ALWAYS good! (forever and ever – amen!). There are so many “stories” – all with a very happy ending! – that we too may very well conclude: God’s got this! (Whatever “this” may be!)
Romans 8:28 does however contain a caveat! (Ahh yes, – read the fine print!). ~ And we know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, to the ones who are called according to His purposes! We love those first lines, but do we see this is a “conditional” promise? Yes, commandment number one is displayed in full view here for all to see: “You shall love the LORD your God with ALL your heart-soul-mind-strength and love your neighbor as yourself.” And IF this is true, then… “all things are in the process (remembering it is a process!) and will conclude (the end of a thing is better than the beginning!) or “end” well!.
Friend, “it is written!” (I didn’t say it —God did!)
~ Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace! ~ (Psalm 37:37)
Is this why believers claim we are living in the sixth day… Some even say the twelfth hour.
And we have the privilege to see God at work… If we permit. Not by chose but by submission. A tough choice for me still working towards my retirement goal…
Well keep on working because our retirement is coming for sure
“And we KNOW…..”.
Yes. That is seriously GREAT! We can KNOW! We can know, with assurance and conviction! AND we can know many life-giving things AND in several different ways. But THIS kind of knowing, this OIDA knowing, this is a FAITH thing, a SPIRIT AND TRUTH thing, a “substance and assurance of things hoped for” and an “evidence and conviction of things not seen” kind of knowing. It is not only the result of knowing as in MERE “head knowledge”, or “ginosko” knowing, or from observable evidence, according the methods of “an inferential empiricist”, as one “draws conclusions from observation like good ol’ Sherlock”. That’s true!
It IS a knowing as a result of “conclusions from deeper levels, from connections that are not so apparent.” And yes, it is NECESSARY for for us to “know” in this sort of way.
But I would differ with the following description of OIDA in a significant sense:
“It describes knowing that results from an INTUITIVE FEELING about reality.”
I would agree that “feeling” may be both contributory and an outcome of this kind of knowing, but this kind of knowing is not primarily derived from “intuitive feeling”, especially in the sense of EMOTIONAL “feeling”. Emotional feeling may occur, but it is more essentially a SPIRITUAL “feeling”. And I think using the word “feeling” itself may be somewhat misleading. I think it is better described as a SPIRITUAL INNER KNOWING, a spiritual DISCERNMENT, or a spiritual REVELATION. If we think of OIDA as a “knowing that results from an intuitive FEELING about reality”, our inclination may very well be to think of it as an EMOTIONAL thing, as a so-called “discernment” that is derived from our emotional feelings, and this is where many, especially the immature, the weak, the carnal “believers”, and even the natural minded “believers”, even some scholars and intellectuals, get it wrong. It’s bad enough to believe that our “knowing”, trusting, and faith, can rely on CIRCUMSTANCES. But to then think that it can rely upon our feelings, as in emotions, or even our minds, is likely to be equally a problem.
No, we must not live by leaning on our own understanding, our own thoughts, feelings, emotions, or circumstances alone, but by the “LIVING word”, by faith and the Ruach ha-Kodesh, by knowing through spiritual discernment, spiritual revelation, by “every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God”, and it must be consistent with the logos, the written Word of YHVH. Flesh and blood must not be what we rely upon for revelation of the truth, but our heavenly Father, His Word, His Ruach ha-Kodesh, and, upon the testimony and witness of Messiah, and Messiah in us, the hope of glory.
This kind of “knowing” is knowing as Peter knew.
“Yeshua said to him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, because FLESH AND BLOOD DID NOT REVEAL THIS TO YOU, but My Father who is in heaven!'” [Mat 16:17]
This does not mean that other types of knowing are necessarily NOT involved in this type of OIDA knowing. It’s just that other types of knowing are NOT ENOUGH, in and of themselves, when it comes to the demands of the kind of faith that is needed to KNOW Messiah and to persevere in following and obeying Him, and to be more than over-comers in this dark, sin-saturated and -ruled world, full of lies, deception, and every evil thing, of which we are an integral part.
There are other ways of knowing things that contribute to our “knowing” in THIS way, this OIDA way of knowing, and we should be open to, asking for, and even seeking, though not ultimately or solely dependent upon these other ways. These ways of “knowing” include, but are not limited to, knowing as in “ginosko”. For it is even “ginosko” knowing whereby we “know” Him in a way that we can then “know” that we have eternal life (John 17, 1John 5). And even His logos, written Word, helps us to know in this OIDA way, though not apart from the Ruach ha-Kodesh and faith. And what about “horaō” – “Properly to stare at, that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: – behold, perceive, see, take heed.
Consider knowing in part through this other way, “horaō”, as explained in the testimony of Yochanan:
“What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen (“horaō”) with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of life—the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.” [1Jn 1:1-2]
Many of us have had these kinds of experiences. Sometimes they are natural and sometimes they are supernatural. Nevertheless, they do not add to our OIDA knowledge unless they are, in a sense, SPIRIT BREATHED, spiritually discerned, revealed.
So maybe it is through many ways of knowing, like tributaries, that actually contribute to OIDA knowing, this deeper, more powerful level of knowing, like then becoming a river feeding into the deep expanse of the sea.
“They feast on the abundance of your House, and you give them drink from the river of your delights.” [Psa_36:8]
Then think of Ezekiel’s vision of the river flowing from that House (the temple of God and consider the implications of all these various ways of knowing leading to OIDA knowledge, and PAZAZZ!
LIFE ABUNDANT FOREVER MORE!
“Then he said to me, ‘These waters go out toward the eastern region. They go down to the Arabah and enter the sea. When they arrive at the sea, the waters of the sea will flow and will become fresh. It will be that every living creature that swarms will live wherever the rivers go. There will be a very great multitude of fish, because this water goes there and makes the salt water fresh. So everything will be healed and live wherever the river goes.’” [Eze 47:8-9]
Now another very serious matter here concerning this promise of being able to “KNOW” in the OIDA way of knowing, that all things are working together for our good, is that it has a conditional nature…..
We must be…..”those who love God, who are called according to His purpose.” Otherwise, this may be the explanation for why we sometimes do not have OIDA knowledge, the faith, the confident assurance and conviction, the substance and evidence of things hoped for and not seen, that all things ARE working together for our good.
“A man who does see that God is working through every actual event is culpable for this mistake”. I would add that to see (and say) what God does not see (or say) is also a mistake for which he will be held personally accountable. Think of the plethora of phony prophecies and false teachings that wrongly predicted and promised the imminent return of the Messiah. And it continues today unabated, unabashedly and unscripturally. Even the respected Apostle
Paul, I’m convinced, was himself convinced that the end times were near and Yeshua’s coming was at the proverbial door. But he, the chosen Rabbi to the Gentile world, was flat out wrong and not just by a few years, but by almost two millennium and counting (and I am smugly satisfied and comforted that even the 2nd greatest Rabbi got things wrong at least once). Thus as I am closer to my 7th decade than my sixth, I am beginning to think that the end may be closer for me than for us and that’s OK “because God is in charge” and I do “take a different view of the world” today than I did many yesterdays ago when I was searching the clouds daily for His parousia. I now “see the world as a manifestation of God’s invisible hand driving creation toward its completion.” It’s end, while assured, seems further away today than all my yesterdays combined. In spite of that, I can still confidently say: “Come quickly, Master Yeshua” for me, for us or for all…today, tomorrow or in another millennium or two or ten.
One reader asked, “Don’t you mean ‘a man who does NOT see’?” Yes, that’s what it should have been. I don’t think this changes your remarks, but I wanted to make the correction to what I wrote (and I have corrected the TW).
Michael, don’t be so quick to assume that Paul was not aware of the timing of that Return. Paul was a prophet and had many visions. Read 2 Thessalonians carefully. It is written in code, because it contains a reminder of what has to happen before that Return that speaks directly against the current Roman empire ( not wise to say directly) because it projects the fall of that empire (“falling away”) and the “man of sin be revealed” first. This language was commonly taken to mean the rise of the Papacy (both then and later, too) which, of course, could not happen until the pagan empire fell. There are writings that have not been destroyed that tell us folks, both then and later, understood this quite well. Paul was reminding them of what he had told them orally when he said he “was yet with you”(2:5). He did not dare repeat that explicit info in writing, but spoke of it in code.
He then goes on to give the most succinct description of the false religious power to come that would oppress the followers, that we have. He writes of this “man of sin” as “opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”(2:4). I say, if it walks like a duck, quacks as a duck, and looks like a duck, it’s going to be a duck. Paul said that fruit had to fully ripen on its tree (“be revealed”) before the Return. I believe we have yet to see the final ripening, but, I agree with you, it has to be close.
I have read all but one (longest 🙂 comments. A disclaimer, I am not struggling with this emotionally as much as I was just a few weeks ago, but that doesn’t mean some of the questions don’t still exist.
“Know”? I have “known” all of my life. Loved and believed all my life. But then recently I ask myself, do I really? So does the Buddhist, Hindus, Muslim, atheist, believers in aliens. How do I “KNOW” my belief is in the True God? The Bible is True? I Believe it, but do I “Know” it?
Is that a fair question?
Very fair. And important. It seems that there are stages in life where we discover we aren’t as confident as we once were. We see the vast array of human religious expression and we begin to ask, “Can they ALL be wrong?” We discover devotion in others who are not like us, perhaps even greater devotion than we have. We wonder how there can be a God who excludes all these others, particularly when so many have never had the awareness that we have had, not of our own effort but simply because we were born into the culture. Then the questions start coming, and we feel set adrift, having to rebuild the faith we once thought was so secure.
I often file this kind of concern away in the comment of Yeshua “I have other sheep not of this fold” (John 10:16)believing he sees the heart and many might know him by another name, experience him in another culture and perceive him through other paradigms. I do not need to know for those of his other folds. I need to know him for myself. Hes the Sheppard of all his flocks.
” the pious man….. is ever alert to see behind the appearance of things a trace of the divine and thus his attitude towards life is one of expectant reverence.
Because of this attitude of reverence, he is at peace with life, in spite of its conflicts.
Every experience opens the door onto a temple of new light, although the vestibule may be dark and dismal.
The pious man… accepts life’s ordeals and its meed of anguish, because he recognizes these as belonging to the totality of life.
The pious man will never overestimate the seeming weight of momentary happenings…. we never know the ultimate meaning of things and so a sharp distinction between what we deem good or bad in experience is unfair…… Heschel
“…an intuitive feeling about reality…”
“…a manifestation of God’s invisible hand…”
What you describe is an epiphany – eye-opening insight!