Predestination

Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them. Psalm 139:16  NASB

Ordained– Does God know everything you will do before you are born, before you make a single choice?  Does He know all men’s choices from eternity past?  And if He does, and He is never mistaken, then in what sense can we claim that we have free will—or, for that matter, how could anyone, including God, ever hold us accountable for any of our actions if they are all predestined?

Questions like these have haunted theologians and philosophers for millennia.  It’s unlikely that any certain answer will be forthcoming.  All the possible solutions to these dilemmas have to make assumptions about God, the world, time, action, and culpability.  Does the Psalmist have his own set of presuppositions that lead him to assert what appears to be a view of total predestination?  Or is something else happening in the Hebrew text?

We can dismiss the issue about who is the subject of this statement fairly quickly, but perhaps not without some uncomfortable ramifications.  The Hebrew word translated “my unformed substance” is, unfortunately, a hapax legomenon, that is, a one-time word, appearing only in this verse.  In fact, the root, gālam, is also a once-off (2 Kings 2:8) as is the derivative, gĕlôm (Ezekiel 27:24).  Here it is gōlem.  Needless to say, hapax legomena are particularly difficult to translate.  So “embryo” is as good as any guess. Maybe.

But now the verse gets more difficult (is that really possible since we are guessing at the meaning of gōlem?).  The Hebrew is actually, “in Your book all of them written the days formed [when] none of them.”  Now you will notice that some crucial terms do not appear in the Hebrew text.  For example, the NASB reads, “the days that were ordained for me,” yet the expression “for me” does not appear in Hebrew.  The phrase in Hebrew is yikatevoo yamin yootzaroo velo echad bahem (roughly, “written the days formed when no none among them.”  The  translation makes the verse seem as if it is describing something God knows beforehand.  The translator uses the past tense (“were written,” “were ordained”).  But the verb tenses aren’t quite like this.  The first verb is a Ni’fal imperfect, usually designating an incomplete or reflexive passive voice.  In other words, the writing isn’t finished. It’s still going on.  That’s quite a bit different than the idea that it is all written in the book before you were born.

The second verb (“ordained”) also betrays theological bent.  The verb is a Pu’al perfect, that is, an intensive completed action.  We know the root, yāṣar, but it takes a theological assumption to translate it as “ordained.”  While the citation is lengthy, it’s worth reading about the larger scope of yāṣar.

The basic meaning of this root is “to form,” “to fashion.” While the word occurs in synonymous parallelism with bārāʾ “create” and ʿāśâ “make” in a number of passages, its primary emphasis is on the shaping or forming of the object involved.

As with many Hebrew words of theological significance, the root yāṣar may be used of human as well as divine agency. When used in its secular sense it occurs most frequently in the participial form meaning “potter,” i.e. one who fashions (clay). The word is used in this form frequently in the prophets where “the potter” provides an apt vehicle for the communication of the prophetic message (Isa 29:16; Jer 18:2, 4, 6; Zech 11:13).

The concept of “fashioning” is particularly clear in Isa 44:9–10, 12 where an idol is pictured as being shaped (yāṣar) by hammers (v. 12). See also Hab 2:18. The same concept is evident in the use of the word in Ps 94:20 where wicked rulers use the law to devise or frame means of wrongdoing.

When used of divine agency, the root refers most frequently to God’s creative activity. It describes the function of the divine Potter forming man and beasts from the dust of the earth (Gen 2:7–8, 19). It occurs in association with bārāʾ “create” and ʿāśâ “make” in passages that refer to the creation of the universe (Isa 45:18), the earth itself (Jer 33:2), and the natural phenomena (Amos 4:13; Ps 95:5). See also Ps 33:15; 74:17; 94:9; Jer 10:16; 51:19; Zech 12:1).

The word also occurs in the sense of God’s framing or devising something in his mind. It is used of his preordained purposes (II Kgs 19:25; Isa 37:26; 46:11; Ps 139:16) as well as his current plans (Jer 18:11).

The root is used of God’s forming the nation of Israel in the sense of bringing it into existence. It is used in this way only by Isaiah and always connotes God’s activity in this regard (Isa 43:1, 7, 21; 44:2, 21, 24).

The participial form meaning “potter” is applied to God in Isa 64:7 where mankind is the work of his hand.

When applied to the objects of God’s creative work, the emphasis of the word is on the forming or structuring of these phenomena. The word speaks to the mode of creation of these phenomena only insofar as the act of shaping or forming an object may also imply the initiation of that object. In this way the root yāṣaris an appropriate surrogate for bārāʾbut not an exact synonym.[1]

Is “ordained” the proper translation here? Did you notice Mccomisky’s remark on Psalm 139:16?  The verb is used for “God’s preordained purposes.”  Does that include everything men will do?  It hardly seems reasonable to extend the idea of God’s purposes to cover every act of men.  In fact, the other citations in Mccomisky’s list are specifically about God’s action, not the acts of men.  Isn’t it possible that this poet who has already asked his readers to recall the chthonic mythology of Genesis is now remarking on God’s eternal plans, not ours.  If the prepositional phrase, “for me,” isn’t in the original text, then how could this verse be enlisted as a proof of God’s foreordination of all human choices?  Why couldn’t it simply be read that God knows what He plans to do before any human days are numbered? The translator’s addition of “for me” alters that entire direction of the text.  Should we not view the text as the worldview of a 10thcentury BCE poet rather than a post-Augustinian Reformed theologian?

Topical Index: yāṣar, formed, ordained, predestined, Psalm 139:16

[1]Mccomiskey, T. E. (1999). 898 יָצַר. In R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer, Jr. & B. K. Waltke (Eds.), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament(R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer, Jr. & B. K. Waltke, Ed.) (electronic ed.) (396). Chicago: Moody Press.

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Craig

I have a tendency for over-analyzing things; yet, I don’t have difficulty envisioning that knowing the future does not necessarily entail predestining the future. In other words, knowing the choices a given person will make does not infringe on that person’s free will. It’s just knowing those free-will choices in advance.

Craig

I don’t think that necessarily follows. God doesn’t impose his infallibility on humans. Ergo, our fallibility, the bad choices we make, do not infringe on God’s infallibility.

Robert lafoy

With all due respect, to know in advance what I will do is to eliminate all other possibilities that I may chose. Free will can’t be accomplished by eliminating choices. ?

Craig

I think you’re conflating the doctrine (assumption, if you like) of God’s omniscience, with humankind’s limited science [ADDED/EDIT:] into one doctrine. The two are separate. If I, per impossible, were to know exactly what I will do the rest of this morning, then I cannot change the course of those events. But, I don’t know what I will do, for I’m not omniscient. Yet, according to the understanding of omniscience, God does know what I will do. The fact that God–not I–knows exactly what I will do, does not impede my choice. God just knows what choices I will make in advance–I, on the other hand, do not.

Craig

Skip,

A while back you mentioned a particular philosopher relative to this issue; I found one of his works and read a bit of it, but, as I don’t recall the name, I cannot investigate further. Who was it, if you can remember our brief discussion? I’d like to find the work again.

Craig

Thanks! It was Pike. I found the article I was looking for: “Nelson Pike’s Contribution to the Philosophy of Religion”. In the work, the author (Garrett Pendergraft) engages Pike with Alvin Plantinga and others.

Craig

Skip,

Every position has its own a priori assumptions. IIRC, you don’t believe in an ‘eternal realm’, but only time as we know it. Is that correct?

My ‘working’ thoughts follow. From my perspective, the key to reconciling any difficulties is understanding that (a) we live in a temporal realm, confined by time; (b) God lives in the eternal realm, with no constraints to time as we know it; (c) the intersection of God’s eternality with our temporality allows for His knowledge of the future, while (among other things) our constraints to the temporal realm do not; and, (d) God’s foreknowledge (over against predestination) allows God certain powers/prerogatives that we cannot comprehend that yet still allows for free will.

I’m no dispensationalist, etc. but I like what Lewis Sperry Chafer stated regarding the relationship of the eternal to the temporal realm:

…Whatever time may be and whatever its relation to eternity, it must be maintained that no cessation of eternity has occurred or will. God’s mode of existence remains unchanged. Time might be thought of as something superimposed upon eternity were it not that there is ground for question whether eternity consists of a succession of events, as is true of time. The consciousness of God is best conceived as being an all-inclusive comprehension at once, covering all that has been or will be. The attempt to bring time with its successions into a parallel with eternity is to misconceive the most essential characteristic of eternal things (Systematic Theology, 1948, 1976 Dallas Theological Seminary (1993), Kregel, Grand Rapids, MI, Vol. VII, pp 141-42. ).

To add to the above, following is a portion of something I’d written years ago for a different purpose, which complements the above: Revelation 13:8 indicates one of two things (the syntax of the Greek allows one of two interpretations): 1) Jesus was slain from the creation of the world, or 2) the writing of the names into the Book of Life occurred from the foundations of the world. To accept number 2 would seem to necessitate number 1, as it appears difficult to have a Book of Life unless there first had been a Life Giver. In any case, the point is that some events from our temporal perspective are depicted in Scripture as already past and/or already present in the eternal realm. Therefore, we cannot conceive of the temporal realm, with its chronological developments, as if it were a subset of the eternal.

Barry Rudd

Schrödinger’s cat?

Having the ability to choose between good and evil doesn’t mean that God cannot know what those choices are in advance. If you think about it from a B-theory of time, everything IS in the mind of God. It is as if our future decisions/actions have already happened. For us, it is like knowing what I did yesterday (it is immutable), but I had the freedom to make that choice.

If we consider God as outside of time (He’s its creator, not its victim). He would be able to see all time events as now. Looking at the past and the future as if they are now. When we think about the Cross, and that God will see it in a “now” sense magnifies the cost at Calvary.

Marsha S

Maybe you could make an audio series on this book and Crossword Puzzles, and make it available for purchase. I have read Crossword Puzzles, but I have not read God, Time and the Limits of Omniscience. It would be a helpful tool for lay people.

Marsha S

That would be great. I still haven’t finished Mark Nanos’ book on Galatians, but I have listened to him. It helps. I think he is working or maybe already finished some work that is written for the lay person. Roman’s I think.

Robert lafoy

Nope, not conflating the issue(s). Unfortunately, as Skip pointed out above, they’re intricately linked. It doesn’t really matter if God sees ahead of time or the “overall” period that we call time, the moment that it can be declared (Which would be because of knowing) what I will certainly do as a determined fact, free will goes out the door. All the doctrinal shuffling in the world doesn’t dismiss that fact. As a consideration, how is that part of being made in Gods image. Is it contrary to it, or the same?

Craig

We cannot transport God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of temporal future events into the present, as that would be anachronistic. From our perspective, these events have not ‘happened’. See my response to Skip at January 22, 2019 3:02 pm.

Forgive me, but I am not following you regarding our being made in God’s image. Could you explain?

robert lafoy

It can’t be anachronistic if God is omnipresent. 🙂 In regards to the image of God, unless the link between foreknowledge (as we’re discussing it) and predestination is recognized, it’s probably a fruitless discussion. I only gave it as a consideration. I would like to clarify though in regards to what may be a point of misunderstanding. Can and does God proclaim future events and interfere with free will? Absolutely, It’s called sovereignty. That doesn’t mean it’s a matter of knowing what will happen because of the ability to “see” the future, but rather a determining of His will. I know that’s a bit broad in statement as there are any number of considerations that can be applied to any situation. In general, God is not a tyrant and that is not His intention for us either.

Craig

It’s anachronistic to impose eternality upon temporality. God doesn’t live within time, nor is he bound to it, though we are. In the eternal realm He sees all: the past, the ever-fleeting present, and the future. He sees all the choices we will make beforehand—and, yes, He can and does intervene at times, as per His sovereignty—but this mustn’t entail that our actions are predestined and that we have no (or limited) free will. Philosophers use ‘possible worlds’ to flesh out im/possibilities. God holds all possibilities of the future in His Divine ‘hands’ in the eternal realm. He knows the choices I will make today, and He may even proactively intervene, but He does not guide me like an automaton.

Craig

Omnipresence, as it relates to the temporal realm, to creation, is necessarily limited to the ever-fleeting present. I like philosopher Thomas V. Morris’ working definition (brackets mine):

Perhaps the best understanding of the attribute of omnipresence is that of its being the property of being present everywhere in virtue of knowledge of [omniscience] and power over [omnipotence] any and every spatially located object [creation] (The Logic of God Incarnate, 1986, Cornell University Press, Ithaca, NY & London, UK, p 91).

Laurita Hayes

Righteousness is about staying connected no matter what. A righteous person can manage to do this no matter how ugly or chaotic things get around them. The intent of the heart is a powerful force that can shape reality as well as other intentions. If God intends to stay in contact with us, then He will, no matter what we do or don’t do. He says He never leaves us. That is His intention. However, that does not infringe in any way on whether or not we decide to leave Him.

All the real stuff is good: all the evil is merely negation or rejection of reality, then. God holds all the (real) playing cards (potentials). If we choose to not inhabit His universe, it’s not like we have an alternate one to set up shop in; we just X ourselves out of His. Evil is where we keep on pushing the ‘extinct’ button but grace is where God keeps on pushing ‘reset’.

God is going to get His way in the end because that is what He wants to do. We can still choose whether or not we get that way with Him. But even grace, in the end, will not get in the way of God’s respect for our choices. Judgment Day is not where God gets what He chooses: it’s where we get what we have already chosen, because that is what He wants, too.`Amazing grace AND justice!

robert lafoy

Golem voweled another way means to fold, (together) or to wrap up and gal-gal is to roll something (a wheel) so that, “my folded upness” He saw and He (Himself) determined the days given to me for my unfolding. Some “days” (biblically defined as starting in darkness and ending in light) are short and bright while others are toilsome and even disturbing as well as long, but the good news is that God Himself (not another) has gifted us the days of our unfolding and He fashions them according to His purposes in us. It’s about opportunity and yes, free will, as we can determine what we do in the circumstances of the days given. What I have to ask is what is the result of my response that makes another fold in the cloth of myself. There will be a “day”, maybe today or tomorrow, maybe in eternity, when I will be unfolded and shown as I am and all that “stuff” folded into me will come spilling out. Just remember that it’s not just about the “things” (good or bad) that we’ve done, but about what we do with those things, even the mistakes and failings can be used to teach humility and love.

Rich Pease

Skip, I so appreciate your scholarship.
I find myself resting on my life’s experience in
relationship with Him, and am currently enjoying
His perfect peace knowing how His sovereign grace
affects all matters.
His gift of free choice has been illuminating. He has
allowed me to navigate the landscape and experience
self-induced terrors and travail, exterior turmoil, interior
confusion and doubts . . . all leading me directly to Him
waiting to deliver His clear and precise direction.
Yeshua said: “The secret of the kingdom of God has been
given to you.” Mk 4:1 Whoa! A done deal! The bottom line:
you either RECEIVE what he’s already given or you walk away.

Laurita Hayes

Interesting discussion. I have noticed that ‘arguments’ (as dialectically opposed, anyway) have to share common premises. I think I see the common premise that has to be shared with the attempt to dialectically oppose eternity/temporality as a TIME-DEPENDENT problem is that, for the argument to be an argument at all, both sides have to agree on the mutual definition of “eternity” in terms of being “non-time”. In other words, time is necessarily the constant with eternity being the deviation.

I think I have also noticed that for dialectics (arguments) to work, both sides also have to agree to leave something behind; some essential truth mutually ignored. What would that truth be here? Wouldn’t it be that both sides have to leave space out of the equation for time to be ‘linear’; but also, because eternity is defined in terms of time (has to share common premises with time); eternity, too, is linear – in other words, its ‘present’ has a past and a future, too(just like time does)? But, I want to ask, what about space?

Try putting space back together with time, as well as, instead of defining eternity in terms (conditions) of time, try defining time in terms of conditional (or, limited) eternity and run through this argument again. If time, from the perspective of eternity, is defined as a: non-eternal (in other words, the linearity of time as past/present/future is NOT NECESSARILY HOW eternity works); and b: cannot be separated from space/matter (as 4th dimensional science has shown us) then we can quickly suspect that past/future stuff is also a space/matter dependent reality, which, starting from an eternal perspective, are not necessarily conditions/constraints (or, not necessarily INSIDE creation) that can be imposed back upon God.

Eternity, if viewed outside the ‘need’ to impose space/matter/past/future (fourth dimension constraints ALL), then becomes itself, so to speak, again, and the Dweller in that all-encompassing present outside of time-linearity/space/matter (which has NO past/future, either), is ‘free’ again (no created limitations; or, areas that the Creator scooted over to allow the other to exist) to be His all-encompassing Self, too.

I think this leaves us still not knowing what eternity is, but at least we can know (from the perspective within creation that we have) what it must be not, anyway – but only if, along the way, we can keep from falling for any dialectical (classical Socratic) attempt to pursue that knowledge. At least from my perspective, anyway.

Craig

I may not have expressed my position well enough, or fully. I view eternity as atemporal, over against omnitemporal. Thus, my discussions of ‘time’ as regards eternity is a matter of convention. YHWH simply IS. As regards creation, time is a necessary aspect of it; and, anytime we speak of God interacting with creation we must necessarily use temporal language. But God is not affected by time.

As regards space, I don’t think YHWH is a spatial Entity. Thus, omnipresence is yet another concession to the temporal realm.

I think if you’ll read my last four comments through the above framework, you’ll see my position more clearly. And that’s not to say it’s fully fleshed out.

Laurita Hayes

Then, Craig, at that point, aren’t you running the risk of arguing apples and oranges: in other words, you perhaps have a necessarily different definition of the terms than Skip does even though you both are employing similar words? In that case, neither of you are likely to get anywhere. Would it perhaps be more profitable for both of you to drop back and define (for the rest of us) the terms you are using first?

Craig

My comment @ January 22, 2019 3:02 pm was an attempt in that vein.

Laurita Hayes

But if you really believed what you said then – with all due respect to both of you – why are you still trying to argue? More to the point: with what are you trying to argue if both of you are truly employing different terms; i.e. definitions of terms?

Craig

If you look closely at the comments, they were in response. My comment at January 22, 2019 3:02 pm was in response to Skip. He didn’t respond further, and I stated nothing further.

Robert Lafoy responded to a different comment, and I responded to him, at one point directing him to my January 22, 2019 3:02 pm comment to help explain my position. Since he responded to that comment, I responded again. My final comment was an attempt to explain omnipresence, as that seemed to be an issue in our understanding each other. With no further comment after that, I made no further comment–that is, until I saw yours.

Laurita Hayes

Craig, that’s fair enough, and I apologize if any ships crossed in the night. I actually find myself agreeing with you (mostly) on conclusions, anyway; I guess the problem becomes upon which foundation do we build those conclusions on? Skip is starting from a different paradigm than you are, I can see that. The conclusions are limited for everyone with the premising paradigms they employ, but they will necessarily be different; therefore, everything subsequent is just shutting barn doors on barns the cows already have left from. It would be more helpful for me to just have people define their premising paradigm and leave it at that, for everything after is going to be obvious. Good discussion, though, for me and thank you both for helping me see my own paradigm better!

Daniel Kraemer

Laurita, after trying to absorb some brain spinning discussions by Pike et al, here is my attempt at definitions, for what their worth.

Time
If time is considered a dimension, like length, width, and depth, then it must be subject to measurement, and thus it MUST have a beginning and an end in order to give it dimensions. Time also has motion and direction, always flowing forward. And just as it must have a beginning, so too, it must have an end and be moving in that direction. Note: Time is NOT a subsection of eternity.

“Eternity” or better phrased, Timelessness
In contrast, eternity is not a measurable dimension, like length, width, and depth. As it has no beginning and no end, it is impossible to measure it because, from where does one start to measure? Measuring requires a reference point, but without a beginning and an end, there is not even a middle. And as there is no place to fix any points, how can there even be a “now” in eternity, when it is impossible to define that point?

Neither can there be motion or direction in eternity. They require points of reference. If there is no fixed beginning and an end somewhere, how can there be speed and direction? How can something move directionless toward nowhere? Motion is from A to B, but if there never was an A, and B does not exist, how does the motion make any progress, and how is the rate measured?

Conclusion
As our life experiences beginnings, endings, motion and direction, we must be living within “time” and not “eternity”, whereas God, if He exists within “eternity”, or I would rather say, “outside of time” then He is outside of our dimensions and not limited by; past, future, direction and speed boundaries, and so His omnipresents is a matter of fact, in such a dimensionless state.

(From there we can argue omniscience.)

Laurita Hayes

Thanks for synthesizing Pike for me, Daniel. I like it!

Seeker

Daniel Kraemer
Your post got me thinking. Time as we know it could not imply time as God intended.
The bible says there’s a time for everything. God created lights to be signs/periods day, night, seasons years. Much later in is revealed that God placed a limitation on the natural experience of these periods.
The biblical authors started referring to these signs as times.
So time in biblical terms seems not to be what God introduced into the creation but more how authors reflected on certain periods.
What is interesting is that we started viewing the time as important and not the sign God provided through the lights.
So yes God is timeless. This creation is for a purpose not a period. We are the ones changing the purpose into time periods… Live today as if it were our last, one day we will not regret this choice. But put things aside for periods or clusters of days and we will no longer live a life as God intended for we easily tend to then nurture and build a life we think we are entitled to.
Back to timelessness that is God’s reality. We his creation are periodic necessities to progress towards the purpose now we also hope for the timelessness…

Seeker

Good and difficult challenge Skip. General definitions refer to it without beginning or end. I never thought of the use of this word until you asked an important question.

As you have reiterated so many times that languages and meanings of words all depend on the culture and circumstances in which it was used… Time is per se a word providing limitations or temporal durations. God does not need these unless he is a creation of or something man cooked up. I believe God accommodates our limitations and for that reason we experience his hand in our existence as circumventing measures. It does not mean he changes or adapts it just implies he is tayloring our thoughts and contributions towards his purpose. And maybe that would have explained God’s reality better. Purposeful not time bound.

It is our experiences of God that makes us consider we understand him and his purpose but as Laurita so often reminds us, we are merely just scratching on the tip of his knowledge and the more we adapt to our understandings the closer we draw to his purpose…

Michael once responded on a blog concerning the clothing or being endowed with the full measure of Christ as in Ephesians as our purpose in life or with godly activities. This is a timeless event. We perceive it occurs when we start understanding dogmas or doctrines concerning how we can manipulate God to bless our existence. When in fact those endowed or anointed in the scripture explain that God has already done that prior to their conception. What he does by changing our thoughts and actions is redeem us unto his purpose… Salvation or eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood. When or how we actually partake in this we have no real idea. We trust we do it by following doctrines or rites which others believed worked.

Well I think it is these dogmas that created the illusion that we are serving God’s purpose. Your most stunning blog for me was on the anger and destructive side of God. It opened my eyes into letting go of rites and gatherings to serve God into accepting my perceived religion was false. We only serve God when guided by his purpose and that is limited by our restrictions we consider God may have on our lives…

David understood this and knew that God leaves us to live as we like but periodically we will feel and experience his all purposeful presence. Unbound unlimited with no time constraint that is the God I believe David was writing about.

Sorry more than a definition but again you got me thinking and scratching more myths off my understanding. Thank you for the challenge.

Seeker

Skip you wrote “If in fact God “accommodates” His true being to our human language…” I think I could have expressed myself wrong. As you adapted your ways and manners towards the upbringing of your children as they gained more knowledge and skills so does God most likely adapt in the way he deals with everyone. I am not saying saved because you believe I am saying saved through growing in faith or deeds that reveals God is guiding us.

I agree that nowhere we are left to decide and do as we please and then proceed to remain as we were. We are saved by our faith not our belief. Faith is hearing, understanding and doing not jumping from one to another gathering and only worshipping during the gathering. Do the apostolic scripts not teach that we can only show our love to God by demonstrating our love towards others?

No God does not have a human form. God is not ethnic or gender specific those are evolutionary survival realities where the mud creation adapted to survive in the region of choice. Scripture is clear it is natural talent, emotions, support and comforting that shows our creation unto his image. Everything we learnt on is survival strategies.

In the dark no. God is light, the day of the lord is light, when he reveals his will unto those he anoints they need not first research this or that. They will understand the fullness of measure of the gift anointed with. You are for example linguistic, I am legal. Luarita maybe teaching inclined. This is not a God given talent but an acceptance of a path for survival. You are for example humble and caring and Laurita maybe humble and supporting while I am say forgiving. These are God’s natural talents he has endowed us with. As Paul explained when we press forward in these talents a more clear and greater talent is anointed or given. Not from birth but as we progress in the spiritual talent Galatians 5, James 3. Or just plainly as Yeshua explained let your light shine. Implying let your godly spiritual gift be revealed. Not your natural talent.

That is the accommodating I am referring to. If this makes some sense.

To relate to what you and Daniel discussed. Just a thought God being timeless does not say he is formless. We are dust (visible form) period. God is spirit (invisible form). For the two to relate the temporal dust must take on the form of the spiritual not vice versa…. Like 1 Cor. 15. Adding onto the temporal form not taking away from. And we rather promote repentance or taking away instead of conditioning or improving to be aligned with… Two different principles and for this reason flesh will never understand spiritual as flesh grows into spirit not spirit takes over flesh… Something like Faith is growing into not submitting unto God’s will and purpose.

Laurita Hayes

That is helpful, Skip, but with all due respect, I don’t think my only other option of thinking is to accept that God is ‘outside’ of time if He is not ‘in’ it (which I believe is still attempting to argue from within the dialectic that accepts “time” as the basic term, with “eternity” being a (sub)condition of that time): I am perfectly ok with time being a subset ‘inside’ of Him, instead. Eternity, then, would not be timeLESSness: it would be ‘full-timeness’ (time filled with the fullness, or, all-dimensional-ness , of God’s presence), would it not?

If you could try stepping outside your own argument for just a minute, perhaps the truth you were trying to reach in your book could come a little closer (even though we cannot know it very well right now, of course)? I do know that when we try to limit God, we only end up limiting ourselves, instead. Thank you for sponsoring this great discussion!

Daniel Kraemer

In fact, I wasn’t trying to capture Pike’s argument, the argument was my own attempt at defining, “time”, and, “eternity”, in terms that were short yet meaningful and understandable, at least to me. As Laurita often says, we cannot sensibly debate anything unless we first agree on definitions. I just mentioned Pike as an example of reasoning that is way beyond what I can comprehend.

But on considering Skip’s response, perhaps he is correct in suggesting there is no such thing as “timelessness”. But whether he is correct or not, it is easy to go astray with our understanding of Scripture when we force words into Scripture that are never found there. So it is with, “timelessness”, and even, “eternity” which is only found one (suspicious) time in the entire KJV Old Testament. For if God never uses either word, maybe there is a good reason and we shouldn’t either.

Instead, maybe I should stick with the Scripture, (1Cor 8:6 that I argued with on Jan 7, TW), and believe that instead of God being outside of time, “time” came “out of” God. (All things are “out of” God). That way, I don’t have to define timelessness, or, eternity, trying to use language that Skip says is inadequate to do the job.

I might have to concede Skip/Pike’s second point as well but then offer another take on it. Pike/Skip says, we cannot know a timeless being, and, a timeless being cannot create. We cannot have a God Who is “outside” of time and Who is also involved with His creation.

But for me, the solution immediately presents itself in the form of the God/Word relationship. There are seven New Testament verses that state that God is invisible and/or inaudible, and permanently so. For instance,

Young’s literal 1Ti 6:16, who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.

Suddenly, this “light unapproachable” makes more sense. The Father really is beyond our perceptions. But this is the reason for the “Word”. He is the Someone we can relate to and He is the One within temporal space and therefore capable of being our Creator.

I’m sure this can be argued “forever” (sorry) but I am really beginning to like where all of this is taking me.

Craig

Though the Wikipedia article here needs some serious work (en dot Wikipedia dot org/wiki/God_and_eternity [–I presume the “Craig” referenced there is William Lane Craig]), it does assert that either the atemporal view (“timelessness” in some sense) or the omnitemporal view (sometimes called sempiternity) can be derived from Scripture.

With the above assumptions, is it possible that God is essentially atemporal (outside the creation He made, time included as part of that creation) yet contingently [omni]temporal, only when He interacts with creation?

Laurita Hayes

If God is a thing: a noun: then He must needs have a substrate of space/time to exist in. This whole argument is agreeing that God is a noun that either a: somehow ‘exists’ outside time, or in it. If God is a verb, or, function, then He requires neither, however. Actions require neither time nor space.

robert lafoy

Agreed Laurita, the declarations of God concerning Himself seem to have more to do with His power (verb) to accomplish, even up to describing His “presence” as a spirit which is not a physical entity but rather a moving force. (gen. 1) It’s interesting to me that God doesn’t seem to deem it necessary to explain His “appearances or activities” in this creation of time and space, (btw,we haven’t got a clue what either one of those things “are”) or how He accomplishes, only that He does. I know that sounds a bit simplistic, but the problem I find with these “theological” impositions is that they tend to lead us toward an ineffectual knowledge. Heads filled with knowledge, but hands unable (not unwilling) to help.

Laurita Hayes

Now we are singing in tune! 1Cor, 8:1 “…knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.”

I have noticed that we are not called to “know” (experience) God – indeed, how can we, dimension-limited as we are, experience what is beyond all creation? Instead, we are called to BE known of God.

How can we experience (which is our only way to know) God? The verse spells out that the only way to know Him is by affording Him the experience of ourselves (“come into my heart, Lord Jesus”). I will take His knowledge of me over my supposed knowledge of Him any day! Halleluah! May I know nothing except Christ, and Him crucified, is my prayer with Paul. Amen.

Craig

Fair enough. You’ve obviously put forth a lot of time and effort into your book, and I can understand frustration into attempting to distill it in a (relatively) few words. I can see that even omnitemporal and atemporal are subject to varying construals, and, hence, must be sufficiently nuanced–and I can envision that I could nuance them into an argument for discussion while still leaving out something integral. That said, I think any ‘equivocation’ in these discussions here are accidental (cognitive dissonance)–not that you’ve intimated otherwise. I won’t try to speak for Augustine, et al.

Laurita Hayes

How can we talk about time without talking about space? Is it because we may be just a little too trained in the Greek assertion that things of the mind can be separated from things of the body; thus leaving us thinking (not thinking?) that we can sort “time” into a mental construct, neatly leaving space (a physical reality) behind? If we could please try putting the two (back) together and then discuss, I am suggesting that we might get further. Try “time/space” in all the places above (and below) where the word “time” is mentioned, and then try again?

George Kraemer

This has been a most entertaining and rewarding TW. Aren’t they all? Sometimes I think I need to just remind myself, “I am who I am” and leave it at that. I am (pre?)-determined to do that someday, when I have some time and space to do so.

Maybe.