Rapture?

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB

Will not grieve– Why does Paul offer comfort to the believers in Thessalonica?  What causes them to be grieved?  The answer is in the text.  These people thought that their loved ones who died would miss out on the inauguration of the Kingdom.  In other words, they expected Yeshua to return and set up God’s Kingdom on earth in their own lifetimes.  But it didn’t happen.  Some of them died.  Anxiety grew.  What would happen to those who died before Yeshua returned?  Paul offers comfort.  “Don’t worry.  They will be raised up.  Yeshua will come for them.  Everyone who believes will be raptured.”

Or so we think. Two thousand years later, we still wait.  And we draw comfort from Paul’s words.  But we should notice something.  We should notice that both Paul and the community expected the end to occur beforevthey died.  We know better.  We know that they all died and Yeshua did not return.  We know that hundreds of generations have come and gone, and Yeshua has not returned.  We are informed.  They were not.  But we have reinterpreted the text so that it never applied to the audience it was written for.  We read it as if Paul, divinely inspired, spoke to all those who have died since.  We see Paul as some kind of fortune-teller, writing to give comfort to a group that he knew would all die before Yeshua returned.  In fact, we read Paul as if he were writing to us—and he knew it.  We universalize the text instead of hearing what he said to that particular audience.  We have forgotten that Paul intended one particular audience to be comforted because what he expected and what they expected hadn’t happened yet.  We read Paul as if he were a contemporary preacher instead of a radical end-times evangelist.

Paula Fredriksen points out that the earliest texts of the apostolic authors are decidedly apocalyptic.  They are about the end of the world.  These authors anticipated Yeshua’s imminent return and they wrote accordingly.  They wanted a public validation of Yeshua’s messianic status, and that validation would occur when he came again in power and glory to establish Israel as God’s great Kingdom on earth.  This apocalyptic fervor permeates their words, and it does something else, something we should have recognized in our examination of the culture, the time, and the audience in proper exegesis.  It sets the stage for the reinterpretation of passages from the Tanakh to portray them as messianic. In other words:

“Ancient scriptures then provided them with their interpretive building blocks to generate new, confirming traditions about Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and second coming.  All of these creative revisions were already in place when Paul wrote to Rome. . . Later church fathers will smooth out this messianic awkwardness, too:  Mary herself will also become descended from the house and lineage of David.”[1]

“These authors were unconstrained by any historical knowledge.  They were therefore free to allow the scriptures to generate the biographical ‘data’ of Jesus that they needed.  Their purpose in writing was not to preserve ‘memories’ or to relate a plausible history: It was to persuade their hearers about the messianic identity of their protagonist.  The gospels first of all are proclamations, not histories. The evangelists’ only constraint was biblical tradition itself.”[2]

“Eventually, as the years stretched on, evolving traditions would de-eschatologize the meaning of Jesus’ resurrection.  It shifted from being a time-indicator (‘Jesus is raised, therefore the Kingdom must be coming soon!’) to being a status-indicator (‘Jesus is raised, therefore he must be the messiah!’). . . In short, the expectation of Jesus’ second and public manifestation as messiah was dictated by the failed Parousia of his initial resurrection appearances.”[3]

You may find this quite disturbing.  I did.  But that doesn’t mean it is easily dismissed.  It can’t be theologically ignored because it doesn’t fit our current view of revised Church history.  Exegesis is still about what the original authors tried to communicate to the original audience within the historical and cultural environment of that audience.  And if the original message was, “The end of the world is coming,” then we are required to deal with that orientation, as painful as it might be.  Perhaps we’re at the edge of another paradigm revision. Perhaps not.  You will have to decide.

Topical Index: rapture, Fredriksen, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

[1]Paula Fredriksen,  When Christians Were Jews, p. 123.

[2]Ibid., p. 117.

[3]Ibid., p. 106.

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Jackie Avery

Are there cracks appearing in the NT?

Mark Randall

No. The issue isn’t the text. The text is solid. A big difference between “theories” and textual criticism.

Laurita Hayes

The apostles ALMOST, in their lifetimes, single-handedly brought about that promised return. I think they could speak like that because they lived like that. They knew without a doubt that the return hinged upon their actions, and they knew that they were acting correctly: that they were evangelizing the whole world with the gospel “which was preached to every creature which is under heaven” Col. 1:23. They knew that they were doing their part in that promised return. No generation since (with a possible exception of the spontaneous, momentary wildfire of 1844) has lived like that. Therefore, no generation since then has talked like that. What if we began to live and talk like that? Could we pull it off? That return that is clearly hinged on us? We are not passive recipients of fate: we are active creators. The second half of the Bible was not written in stone, but by and in our choices. We are the other half of the divine dance, after all.

Steve Lyzenga

70 AD was not the ‘end of the world’… but it was ‘end of the age’ (temple and associations).
And whereas some Jews missed Yeshua’s 1st coming in ~ 30 AD because they were expecting a physical King and Kingdom…
Most Christians missed his 2nd coming in ~ 70 AD because they are still expecting a physical King and Kingdom.
All OT and NT prophecies were fulfilled in the seven years leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem, to include the rapture.
It took years of research, but my Paradigm Revision now aligns with the the original audience’s understanding.
And best of all, Yeshua and Paul and Peter and James and John were not false prophets…. everything took place exactly as they said it would.

MICHAEL STANLEY

Steve, this is the 2nd day in a row you mention that “Most Christians missed his 2nd coming” and adding the teaser today “in ~ 70 AD because they are still expecting a physical King and Kingdom.” Yesterday I thought maybe you made a typing error, but clearly you doubled down on it today, so I’ll bite.
Would you care to clarify your claim? I certainty wasn’t there in 70 AD, nor in my 40+ years of Biblical study have I ever been made aware that Yeshua returned at that time. Did He come in a physical body or as a glorified Spirit ? Was it just for a day trip to witness His beloved city and people, including some of His own disciples, to be destroyed? And why didn’t He communicate these facts to the writers of the estimated 8-12 NT books yet to be written after 70 AD? It sounds to me as if you are trying to justify a replacement theology theory after the fact using the destruction of the Temple as a convenient book-end. But I’m sure you have an exegetical explanation and I would hope you would share some of it in greater detail. Curious minds want to know. Are there other important dates that He popped in for an official visit without our knowing that might make our understanding of church history more palatable? And most importantly have you deciphered a predetermined cataclysmic event yet to come marking His next return? I’m sure you would want Christians to be ready this time and not miss Him…again.

Steve Lyzenga

Hi MIchael, great questions, and no doubt there are 100’s more on the heels. I would welcome an ongoing discussion, but since the topic is so vast, i would prefer to do so telephonically. If you’re up for that, please let me know and i’ll send you my #.

Steve Lyzenga

Lol… this topic may require a whole vineyard…!

Jackie Avery

Agree totally!!

Seeker

Sorry to hear the rest of us will be left in the dark, Steve. But then again some end time prophets predict the natural earth has just over 400 years left before the final battle will end… Or is it commence?

Jeanette

I think Michael asked good questions and it would only be fair to respond since you said what you said. If you don’t, I would say you are afraid to respond because you don’t expect your opinion or theory to be accepted. Am I assuming too much?

Jeanette

Steve, I read your explanation later but I really don’t get what you are saying. It doesn’t seem to make sense to me. Could you summarize your beliefs in a few sentences?

Kay

Steve, I am seeing this, too! A few months ago,, for the first time, I tried reading Matthew 23-25 continuously as one account, and boy, was that a paradigm shifter for me! It helped me to understand better when I learned that the Greek word “parousia” does not mean a literal physical return or coming back, but simply means “presence”. Another thing to remember is that, being the agent/mashiach/anointed/chosen one of the Most High, Yahusha/Jesus’ presence IS the Father’s presence. After all, they are echad/one in mind and purpose, not in being (just as Adam and Eve were echad in the garden).

Kay

If I may suggest to anyone interested, please check out Don K. Preston. He has both a blogsite and a YT channel. I find his studies most helpful in this area. Although many of his beliefs still align with traditional Christianity, his Eschatology takes into account much, if not all, of the Tanakh.

I appreciate and am thankful for teachers who do not “interpret” Scriptures, but rather help me “understand” (to stand under) it. And Skip, you’re one of them…most of the time. ?

Kay

Steve, I am seeing this, too! A few months ago,, for the first time, I tried reading Matthew 23-25 continuously as one account, and boy, was that a paradigm shifter for me! It helped me to understand better when I learned that the Greek word “parousia” does not mean a literal physical return or coming back, but simply means “presence”. Another thing to remember is that, being the agent/mashiach/anointed/chosen one of the Most High, Yahusha/Jesus’ presence IS the Father’s presence. After all, they are echad/one in mind and purpose, not in being (just as Adam and Eve were echad in the garden).

If I may suggest to anyone interested, please check out Don K. Preston. He has both a blogsite and a YT channel. I find his studies most helpful in this area. Although many of his beliefs still align with traditional Christianity, his Eschatology takes into account much, if not all, of the Tanakh.

I appreciate and am thankful for teachers who do not “interpret” Scriptures, but rather help me “understand” (to stand under) it. And Skip, you’re one of them…most of the time. ?

David Williams

It is an easy research to find when and how Rapture Theology entered mainstream Christian thought. When: around 1830. How: grew out of a millenarian movement championed by J.N. Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. N.T. Wright has written extensively on the nonsense of the Rapture. Suggested reading would be N.T. Wright’s “Surprised by Hope pages 118-136. Wright also has YouTube videos about the Rapture as does his website. There will be a Second Coming, but not anything like what is taught in mainstream evangelical teachings. Regretfully, America’s lust for end-times writings, does nothing but line the pockets and estates of the “Left Behind’ fiction writers and the plethora of other fear-mongering writers lining their pockets through Church presentations and book signing tables out side the sanctuaries of many evangelical churches. More regretfully, many purchasing this nonsense are the elderly, who can least afford this blather. They set at home waiting to be snatched up by some ‘spaceman’ Yeshua and left floating somewhere in the space-time continuum. Better to dig in and study what the word and concept “parousia” meant in the context of the first century and its Jewish and Roman culture. Shalom

David Williams

Could not agree more. I am currently on my second read of your book “Cross Word Puzzles” and Wrights’s “The Day the Revolution Began”, which addresses the same subject. Both books overlap beautifully. Thanks again for your hard work and courage and studied insights. The world needs to here more of your work. Shalom

Steve Lyzenga

Yep, David’s modern history of the ‘rapture’ theory is true, to include how much $ it’s made since the Late Great Planet Earth.
But much older history – like way back in the early Trinitarian days – someone came up with the concept of a futuristic 2nd coming… as if it didn’t take place already. They did so by inserting a GAP (now up to 2000 years) between Revelation 3 and 4 [if you’re a Futurist] or between Revelation 20 and 21 [If you’re a Historist].
If you’re an original Preterist, you consider a 2000 year gap in the Bible outlandish [i.e., it’s a Hebrew book written to the Hebrew people… not us!]. And as a preterist, you understand that Yeshua came the 1st time as a Lamb in 30 AD (+ or -) and came back a 2nd time in 70 AD (+ or -) as a Lion, to bring judgement against Jerusalem, and the no-longer-needed Temple system (not one stone left upon another).
Yeshua came in the clouds – just as Yehovah came in the clouds in the OT – symbolizing national judgement against those who didn’t accept his 1st coming. He came just as Matthew 24 described, to include ‘within this generation’ (v.34), which subsequently now doesn’t have to be the most embarrassing verse in the Bible according to CS Lewis. And if you study preterism [which doesn’t have to equate with Replacement Theology, as it definitely doesn’t for me] there’s a ton of evidence as to how Matt 24 and Revelation (and all other appropo NT prophecies) were fulfilled during the seven years leading up to destruction of Jerusalem.
Where the Church gets hung up is on the “we have to take it literal”… even though we HR-ers know the importance of taking the Bible according to its type of literature. Most of Revelation is Hebrew allegorical and apocalyptic… and why shouldn’t it: Yehovah is speaking to John in his ‘native code’ language while stranded on Patmos – at the same time Nero was taking out Peter and Paul (so no, John did not write Revelation in the 90’s!). And He did so in a similar way that he spoke apocalyptically to Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.
Only in this case, John is letting the seven regional churches know what’s ready to transpire over the next seven years [i.e., 3.5 years of Messianic persecution followed by 3.5 years of non-messianic Jewish persecution]. In doing so, he is simply reminding them of what Yeshua taught them 30+ years prior. Wouldn’t you want a courtesy head’s up if you were still alive 30+ years later {“some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom”}. In fact, the messianics are being reminded by John to beat feet when they see Jerusalem surrounded – which is historically exactly what they did: to Petra and elsewhere when General Cestius surrounded Jerusalem, before getting called away to another mission (prior to Vespasian and Titus).
The Rapture back then…? Sure. When Yeshua was resurrected, there was a first fruits resurrection for those in Hades (the strange passage in Matthew). Then when he returned in the clouds 40 years later (metaphorical, like used of Yehovah in the OT), the rest of the dead in Hades were resurrected to their judgement, and after that, ‘we who are still left”. Did anyone notice…? Between many Christians being persecuted and killed by Nero, the rest being in hiding, and the ‘twinkling of an eye”, probably not. Although Josephus does talk about strange things taking place in the skies during this time.
And what about our rapture…? It will take place when you die. No more hades after Yeshua’s first-born-amongst-the-dead resurrection.
And what about the new heaven and new earth…? Compare notes with how it is used in the Tanak.
And what about the consummation of the cosmos…? No clue. We’re not told.
Of course, this is just a smidgen of synopsis of the preterist position. For those who want to dig deeper, i can certainly point you to reams of online material.

Seeker

Thank you for the additional information Steve. Is this literal years or 7 X 3.5 or 360 X 3.5… As a prophetic script it could be any where in these or other scriptural understandings of God’s time versus ours, so maybe even 1 000 X 365 X 3.5 days

Kay

“And what about the new heaven and new earth…? Compare notes with how it is used in the Tanak.”

Josephus also referred to the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place as “heaven and earth” respectively. So “heaven and earth” (meaning the Temple) did pass away in 70AD. But Yah’s word still remains.

The most glaring proof in support of preterism is the absence of the physical Temple and the Levitical priesthood. Yah said He does not dwell in houses made by human hands

Acts 7…“47But it was Solomon who built the house for Him. 48However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands.

This is what Paul is talking about when he says that the body of believers is the dwelling place of God…
1 Cor. 3:16-17
“Do you not know that you are a ***temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you***? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the ***temple of God*** is holy, and that is ***what you are.***”

2 Cor. 6:14-18
“Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For ***we are the temple of the living God***; just as God said, “I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.”

Ephesians 2:19-22
“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a ***holy temple in the Lord,”***

Yah’s people is His inheritance…His dwelling place…made with unhewn stones…not by human hands.
Tabernacle/Temple (type)
Body of Messiah (anti-type)

Our inheritance is the “Promised Land”…our dwelling place…Yah’s kingdom
Physical land of Israel (type)
Yah’s spiritual kingdom (anti-type)

YHWH’s original plan is to dwell in His people. That’s why over and over again, He says Israel is His inheritance. The Golden Calf incident changed all that…temporarily. A long time, but not forever. And this was also why there was “torah that was added because of transgressions.” (Gal. 3:19)

I’ve heard somewhere that the book of Exodus is possibly out of order. Same with the book of Ezekiel. If this is true, then it’s possible that our understanding (or lack of it) is askewed. I’m open to this possibility.

Seeker

Is this what Ezekiel prophesied in chapter 43:7?
And Yeshau reiterated in John 14:23

Kay

Possibly. I haven’t read and studied Ezekiel as much as i want to. I’m planning to print out a copy of it in the correct order. Have you noticed that the sequencing (dates and events) seems out of sorts?

Seeker

Kay, sorry but I am not a scholar. But yes I was told that the complete scripture has been written to suit a purpose of some logic.

Kay

I’m not a scholar, too! Like you, I’m also a seeker! So I guess we’re classmates! Hooray! I really like your name. 🙂

Seeker

Email address is protegeipc@gmail.com if you wish to contact later…

gail

Question about sequencing: why do you think the sequencing needs to be in a particular order, what indicated it is ‘out of sorts’? Do you mean it is not in chronological order?

Kay

Hi, Gail. Here are some notes that I took from a teaching re the book of Ezekiel. I tried studying this a few years ago and haven’t revisited it yet. Nothing is etched on stone. Chrinological order is important to help us better understand what happened (and possibly why).

Ezekiel: a collection of 13 scrolls
– Zerubabel built Temple with the help of Yahusha the High Priest (ch. 3)
– purpose: to bring the people to t’shuva

Ch. 1:2 (written in the 3rd person. Date not written by
Ezekiel, but by a scribe)
– No month mentioned; 5th of the chodesh in the 5th year of King Yehoyakin’s exile

*Scroll #1: ch 8:1-19:14
– 6th year, 6th month, 5th day
– talks about the present state of Yisrael, the Temple abominations, etc.

*Scroll #2: ch 20:1-23:49
– 7th year, 5th month, 10th day
– showing Yisrael how rebellious they have been

*Scroll #3: ch 24:1-25:17
– 9th year, 10th month, 10th day
– proclamation against the surrounding territories

*Scroll #4: ch 29:1-16
– 10th year, 10th month, 12th day
– proclamation against Egypt

(Note: 17-year gap between v. 16 & 17)

*Scroll #5: ch 26:1-28:26
– 11th year, 1st of the chodesh (no specified month)
– proclamation against Tyre and its kings

*Scroll #6: ch 30:20-26
– 11th year, 1st month, 7th day
– proclamation against pharaoh

*Scroll #7: ch 31:1-18
– 11th year, 3rd month, 1st day
– Egypt is cut down like a tree

*Scroll #8: ch 32:17-33:20
– 12th year, 15th of the chodesh (no month specified)
– Egypt is assigned to the pit

*Scroll #9: ch 32:1-16
– 12th year, 12th month, 1st day
– lamentation for Egypt
(Note: the fall of Egypt came sometime before the fall of Jerusalem)

*Scroll #10: ch 33:21-39:29
– 12th year, 10th month, 5th day
– fall of Jerusalem
– prophetic aspects of Ezekiel’s scrolls closes/ends here
(Note: LXX says 10th year, 12th month, 5th day)

*Scroll #11: ch 40:1-48:35
– 25th year, 10th month, 14th day
– after a 13-year silence
– 43:10 purpose: to shame Yisrael into repentance
– a CONDITIONAL offer of national restoration contingent upon both houses making t’shuva
– Yisrael did not accept (chose to continue to rebel)

*Scroll #12: ch 29-17-30:19
– 27th year, 1st month, 1st day
– Babylon will plunder Egypt

*Scroll #13: ch 1:1, ch 2-7:27
– 30th year, 4th month, 5th day

More notes:
– Ezekiel’s visions lasted 25 years
– the closing chapters, including the temple visions, PREDATE the opening chapters by 5 years.

gail

I’m looking at your first couple sentences and got stuck. How central to your belief (2nd coming happened in 70AD) is it for the “temple system” to be “no-longer-needed”? In other words, assuming that the Temple system (Aaronic Priesthood/Levitical system” is only now ON HOLD due to the destruction in 70AD and NOT because it is no longer needed, what does this do to your theory? thanks.

Steve Lyzenga

HI Gail. The preterist position is that the temple is no longer needed. Only does a futurist position – with a 2000 year gap – say it ON HOLD awaiting a Third Temple. Yeshua, who completed the need for a Temple, prophesied the second Temple would be destroyed ‘in this generation’… and it was. Not sure why we would need a Third…?

Steve Lyzenga

I returned here to forward this thread to a friend. And now offer my apologies for not realizing the ongoing discussion. I don’t post much, so I didn’t think about it much.

Preterism is a hornets nest if you never heard of this position. But after 30 years of studying eschatology, it’s the only position that fits the original culture and context. For instance, Revelation WAS understood by John’s audience in their day, i.e., we are not the intended audience 2000 years later!

It appears Kay is getting it. And I agree Don Preston is a good source (one of many). Albeit, I often don’t agree with the pteterist Christian theology, especially anti-Torah-ism. But as I mentioned previously, I can separate their theology and eschatology. In fact, for me preterism goes hand and glove with HR. There just isn’t many of us out there.

Anyway, since this is such a large topic, and it’s so hard to cover textually back and forth, I’m game for a phone call with anyone who wants to explore further.
Feel free to email me at mt2414@gmail.com.

gail

quick question: what’s been happening in these last 2000 years? What is still to come?

Steve Lyzenga

The last 2000 years the Kingdom of God has been spreading.
No clue what’s to come. Maybe there’s a final consummation, maybe not.
No doubt, it’s kind of unnerving for those who believe the Bible has a 2000 year gap, but it’s up to the Creator how things end… if they do.

Rich Pease

Steve, help me understand your info on the specifics
of Jesus’ second coming in 70 AD.
Thanks.

Steve Lyzenga

Hi Rich. That’s a tall order on a blog… albeit i wrote a longer paragraph above trying to summarize what is impossible to summarize in a paragraph. But feel free to send your email to my email and i’ll send you a bunch of resources. If you’ve never studied the preterist position, it will be worth our time… if nothing else, to know this position exists and has been around for a long time – much longer than the futurist 2000 year gap theory.

Kay

Rich, here’s a link to a long series on the Olivet discourse by Don K preston:
(Link removed by Mark. Please don’t place outside URL’s on the blog. Thanks)

Another excellent teacher is William Bell.
(LInk Removed)

Rich Pease

Thanks, Kay.

Kay

“Albeit, I often don’t agree with the pteterist Christian theology, especially anti-Torah-ism. But as I mentioned previously, I can separate their theology and eschatology.”

I agree and I like how you put it, Steve.

For me, the key is Exodus 19-24:8. This is prior to the Golden Calf incident. Abba’s original plan for Israel, after bringing them out of Egypt was to make them His “kingdom of priests”, NOT a kingdom WITH priests, IF they diligently obey His voice (19:5-6).

The original torah for His children was the 10 dabarim (10 words/commandments) in Exodus 20. Ch 21-23 are mishpatim (right-rulings). Perhaps these were specific instructions on how to rule rightly for specific situations based on the 10 Dabarim.

Ch 23:14-18 (compare with Lev. 23)…
It’s interesting to note that only three festivals (chag) are mentioned here.
V. 15 Festival of Matzot
V. 16 Festival of the Harvest (qatsiyr, not shavuot)
V. 16 Festival of the Ingathering (asiph, not sukkot)

These are only observations of mine. Lately I’ve been paying more attention to details in Scripture. I think every word is significant. The devil…or should I say, the truth is in the details.

I’m seriously considering the possibility that the instructions (torot) for the tabernacle and the Levitical priesthood were given to Moshe AFTER the Golden Calf incident, not before. Thus, ch 25-31:11 could be in the wrong place/order. Why do I think this? Well, when were Aaron and his sons supposedly chosen to be YHWH’s priests and why? Weren’t they chosen because they sided with Moshe AFTER the GCI, and they killed the others who didn’t? This correct ordering lines up pretty well with the original intent of Yah in ch 19:6.

Another set of details that are significant to investigate is the things that are found inside or beside/outside the Ark of the Covenant. Whatever is inside the Ark is the one originally intended by Abba for His children…His priests. The ones outside are meant to be witness against them.
Deut. 31:26
“Take this Book of the Torah, and you shall place it ***beside*** the ark of the covenant of יהוה your Elohim, and it shall be there as a witness against you,”
Gal. 3:19
“Why, then, the Torah? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made.”

(Please read the entire Galatians 3 for context.)

Also note that Aaron’s staff that budded and the jar of manna were placed OUTSIDE of the Ark. Hmmm…

Something changed after the golden calf incident. The main one is the (temporary) move from a kingdom OF priests to a kingdom WITH priests. But it is always in Abba’s plan to restore everything back to His original plan. This is what Peter is saying in 1 Peter 2:9…
“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a set-apart nation, a people for a possession, that you should proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvellous light,”

This was what Yahusha hamashiach was ushering in (the messianic age = age of the anointed) as the age of his time (temple and Levitical priesthood age) was coming to an end. This is what I understand to be the resurrection/restoration of His people (and eventually all mankind) back in covenant with the Father…to be restored all the way back to the Edenic relationship/kingdom. Not just the kingdom with priests…but all the way back to the beginning of the book. To restore what was broken or lost…to resurrect what had died. Which boils down to man’s (Adam) direct and close relationship with Abba Yah. What gospel (wonderful news) this is for us, His children! HalleluYah!

Richard Bridgan

These are some keen insights, Kay. Thank you for sharing them here. It’s set me on some additional consideration and study!

Laurita Hayes

Right on, Kay! I agree: it’s a dance: after the Golden Calf incident, everything jogged left. Keep on thinking and sharing.

Steve Lyzenga

Thanks Kay, that’s some good stuff and much to chew on. It would be neat someday to get it all figured out!

Something i’ve considered regarding EX 19-20 is that even before the GCI, YHVH called all of the Israelites to the mountain, but EX 20:18-21 implies that they backed off and didn’t accept their personal role of a Kingdom OF priests, and were willing to have Moses, followed by Aaron, etc, become their Kingdom WITH priests.

Side note: It’s my understanding that every RELIGION – to include modern Christianity – has three things in common: 1) a temple, 2) a priest, and 3) a sacrifice. I agree that it was never YHVH’s intention for His family to operate in this paradigm. But ultimately, He will let us have what we want, i.e., a priest [Moses/Aaron], a temple [building], and a sacrifice [Golden Calf].

So after enough is enough with the the unnecessary shadow system, Yehoshua, the long awaited Messiah, comes along and we are offered the alternative, may i say original, intention of of His Father: we His children are His temple, His priesthood, and His living sacrifice. And to seal the deal, Yehoshua returns around 70 AD to tear apart the old system [not one stone upon another]. Revelation calls it the ‘new heaven and new earth’ [metaphor for new system of governing].

It’s only too bad that the early church threw off it’s Hebraic roots and re-instituted the next iteration of man-made RELIGION, to include a temple, priest, and sacrifice.

MICHAEL STANLEY

Steve, So in the Sermon on the Mount when Yeshua said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” … so in 70 AD either heaven and earth also passed away without our knowing it or Yeshua misspoke. Which is it? And if, as you say, the ‘new heavens and new earth’ in Revelations is a “metaphor for new system of governing” and not a literal new heavens and earth, where exactly is the New Jersusalem and the Kingdom supposed to be located and operate from? If it is not physical, why do we need a physical resurrection, and for that matter, why did Yeshua need a “new” body? Why, why, why? For me, your theology has too many contradictions, too many suppositions and too many fatal flaws to be investigated further. Besides I have my own crazy conspiracy theories to champion, such as the connection between demons, Nephilim and UFO’s. So…out of curiosity, do any Preterist theories have Jesus coming back in (or as) a UFO when He secretly destroyed the Temple in 70 AD?

Kay

Hi, Mr. Stanley. I hope I’m not acting presumptuously here by trying to help out.

I had similar questions as you when I first came across preterism. Josephus’s writings helped me to connect some dots and remove conflicts by better understanding the words of the messiah re “the heavens and the earth.” The Israelites, and later on the Jews of Yahusha’s time, never thought of the wolrd coming to an end. They understood “the heavens and the earth” as symbolic of the tabernacle/temple.

Josephus First, Book III, chap.6, section 4:
“Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God.” Of the veil at the holy of holies, he said, “This veil was very ornamental, and embroidered with all sorts of flowers which the earth produces; and there were interwoven into it all sorts of variety that might be an ornament, excepting the forms of animals”

Josephus War 5.1.4 19-20
“The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction. But I must restrain myself from these passions by the rules of History, since this is not a proper time for domestic lamentation, but for historical narrations.”

May you find this helpful as I had. It is always good to ask questions. I have so many. And this is how I learn. I pray that this somehow blesses you, as you have blessed me so much in the past. I look forward to being blessed by you in the days to come. ?

Steve Lyzenga

Hi Michael. Good questions of course.
Kay hits some great points regarding Josephus and NHNE. In addition, here’s an article on it:
https://revelationrevolution.org/the-destruction-of-heaven-and-earth-and-the-new-heaven-and-earth-explained/ (there’s also an article on the New Jerusalem).
As far as ‘one jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the law, ’till all be fulfilled’… my understanding is that many jots and tittles changed in 70 AD – in fact, the entire sacrificial system collapsed, just as Yeshua prophesied.
And he came on the clouds (ancient UFO lol) to bring judgement, the same way YHVH came on the clouds to bring judgment in the OT.
Yeshua also told his disciples he wasn’t implementing a physical Kingdom – instead, the KoG is in your midst or in our hearts. Why do futurist Christians continue to expect he was going to change his mind and now implement a physical KoG…? Because of metaphors and allegories….?
Regarding contradictions, after years of study, preterism is the only ‘end times’ view where the contradictions melt away for me.

MICHAEL STANLEY

Hmmm. I read the article and have to admit it made sense. I will research this “strange” doctrine further. I have to remember that just because I have a POV and an opinion it doesn’t mean it is correct or that it can’t be changed by new information and the addition of facts. Thanks for your patience and meekness. I apologize if I offended you in any (or every) way. Forgive my ignorance, insistence and intransigence.

Kay

Mr. Stanley, I didn’t expect to be blessed (once again) by you this soon! Your teachable attitude is light to us all! May your tribe increase! Yah bless you!

You exceed my expectation, Sir!

MICHAEL STANLEY

Kay, Toda raba. I try to manage at least one positive trait for every 7 faults. I’m working toward the eventual reversing this ratio so my strong suits don’t always fold under pressure, but after 68 years I’m running short on time and long on struggles.

Steve Lyzenga

Lol… for all of us reading TW and studying HR, offense is the name of the game!
And now throw preterism in the mix to up the ante…!!
No apologies necessary 😉

Steve Lyzenga

Kay, down to the last day here, but hopefully you’ll get this in time. Regarding your thoughts in this post, have you watched this video from Ps 119 ministries: https://youtu.be/18lIl4PZFqU

It appears that it may be touching on your line of reasoning, albeit, taking the opposite position.
But, neither here nor there on right or wrong at this point, I’m more interested if this is the direction you were headed, i.e., the book of convent vs the book of the law…?
Please feel free to email me at
mt2414 @ gmail.com