Window Shopping
When David arose in the morning, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, 2 Samuel 24:11 NASB
Seer – Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear? Not everyone is so equipped. To hear what God is saying requires more than processing audio signals. Our equipment must be tuned to His frequencies and those oscillate with repentance and righteousness. The same is true about sight. To see is not merely processing photons. To see is hazah, “to see, to perceive.” A seer is a hozeh. What distinguishes hazah from ra’ah (the other verb for “to see”)? A hozeh sees through a window into God’s world. When he looks, he doesn’t see what is just presented to the normal eye. He sees what God sees. It is as if he stands at a window and looks into another world, a world invisible to the normal eye. This is the sense of the often quoted verse about people without a “vision.” What the verse really suggests is not that the people lack challenging goals but rather that they lack a hozeh, a seer. They have no ability to look through the window to see what God sees. Therefore, they are blind to reality. And no amount of leadership training or goal-setting will improve this. Without a hozeh, the people falter.
Not everyone is a seer. Furthermore, being a seer is not a personal career-path choice. God chooses a seer for reasons that usually escape us. Being a seer is a divine assignment, usually resulting in trials and death. Seer and prophet are the same. So are the results.
It is commonplace today to suggest that God closed His revelation of Himself with the death of the Apostles. The canon rests on this assumption. If we believed that God continues to choose seers, we might not have a fixed body of sacred literature. Progressive revelation might continue. Moses certainly suggested that there was no fixed canon following the Torah since he provided for tests of prophets to follow him. But at some point, both Christianity and Judaism closed the official door for further additions to the sacred texts. Why and how these decisions were made is a rather fascinating study revealing a lot more human intervention than we usually imagine. But this much is clear: hazah is crucial. We must be able to “see.” Apparently this kind of seeing requires a guide.
Perhaps when Yeshua suggested that the Comforter would follow Him, he was thinking about the role of the hozeh. Perhaps when Peter proclaimed that the Spirit was poured out on all flesh, he too was thinking of the hozeh. Perhaps when we read the words of Scripture, we need to “see” through the window instead of simply listening to the instructions. Perhaps there are those among us who really do “see” in this way. Perhaps we need a lot more seeing in our faith. When you listen to God’s words, when you read the words of those who came before you, are you seeing into His world? Or are you just making lists, settling arguments or building doctrines?
Topical Index: hozeh, seer, prophet, 2 Samuel 24:11
Skip,
Do you think that gifts of the Spirit, such as prophecy(1 Corinthians 14) are the same as a Seer or do you think the Seer has more to do with the office of the prophet? I would love to pick your brain on this subject.
Without investigating, my guess is that the reference in 1 Corinthians to prophecy falls under the Hebrew concept of the navi or hozeh, but since this is an operation of the Spirit, it is strictly temporal, provided for the Spirit’s purposes, not a permanent “office” in the church. Furthermore, the idea that prophecy is foretelling did not develop until after 300AD, so it is not a major element in the work of the navi or hozeh. Men of the Tanakh who were called to act as prophets seem to exhibit the same characteristics but how they were able to do what they did is a mystery.
“But at some point, both Christianity and Judaism closed the official door for further additions to the sacred texts. Why and how these decisions were made is a rather fascinating study revealing a lot more human intervention than we usually imagine.”
Skip, maybe I am interpreting this wrongly, but does this suggest that there may be further revelation? If so, could you elaborate? I have spent several years debating with Mormons about the “revelations” of Joseph Smith and teaching against the “revelations” of the Koran simply on the basis that these teachings contradict the character of Yeshua. If it is a possibility that God could/would reveal something else to a hozeh, how do we teach our people the difference in a world already saturated with self-proclaiming prophets?
Jimmy
First, we should note that the closing of the canon was first accomplished by Christian bishops and the emperor in about 350AD. The Jewish canon was closed in reaction to the perceived threat of Christianity. It was not closed when Yeshua lived. Also, we should note that many believers continued to hold several books as sacred that were eventually rejected by the canonization process.
Secondly, any canonization process is really a reflection of what is already in place in the believing community. On other words, canonization comes AFTERWARD. What believers consider sacred always is prior to the canon. What finds its way into the canon is a matter of confession, not evidence, since the believing community acknowledges more sacred material than eventually becomes canonical.
Finally, whatever is revealed in any believing community must be consistent and not self-contradictory. These two principles invalidate the claims of Mormons and Mohammed. The arguments are epistemological, not theological. For more about this, read McDonald The Biblical Canon or come to the class in November.
YHWH can move imperfect people with imperfect reasoning, to preserve His Word. The Book of Enoch, as we have it, is not in tune with the rest of scripture. The Letter of Ignatius to the Ephesians is very inspirational and has a similar tone with the rest of scripture, but it contains the roots of the papacy if considered authoritive outside it’s time.
I’d be curious as to what specific literature comes to mind when some argue one way or the other.
Seeing/prophesying – i think way to much is made of both of these actions. i personally think/feel/experience these actions commonly & Paul exhorted us to do so – too much is made of these verbs of helpfulness – it is to help one another in the body of Christ & the world (He speaks through donkeys).
It happens in everyday conversation – it is part of being a son/daughter of the Most High. We all do it all the time – we just don’t recognize it – some do & some don’t. I think/feel that if the pressure is taken off of the title (it don’t make a hill of beans) & you just let God use your spirit/mind/lips – it flows in normal conversation as it does with lots of people. Don’t you ever feel like when you are in a conversation & you say the most profound things that come into your spirit up to & through your mind & out your mouth – that you know it is not you speaking/prophesying/seeing into the heart/situation of another. I truly don’t get the big deal made out of it – it is walking in the Spirit for sure…
Skip & others on here see/prophesy quite frequently if not daily… ♥
as my friend has on/in her signature “listen with your heart” & i say also speak with your heart – therefore prophesy… ♥
jan
i think the doest protest too much… The phrase has come to mean that one can “insist so passionately about something not being true that people suspect the opposite of what one is saying.”
I agree, Jan, that when we walk in the Spirit that we function as a spokesman for God as an hozeh.
well said, Robin – we are of one mind/spirit also – thank you for affirming me/my thoughts/writing…
jan
“Seeing/prophesying, I think way too much is made of both of these actions.”
“We all do it all the time – we just don’t recognize it – some do & some don’t.”
Hi Jan,
Hmmm, You sound a little bit like a materialist dialectician; on the one hand you negate the phenomenon of seeing/prophesying the spiritual in the material world, and on the other hand you affirm it 🙂
Listen to your Heart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktRsl2hAPhY
Michael, I don’t know where i “negate the phenomenon of seeing/prophesying the spiritual in the material world” – i don’t see where i did that above or how you arrived at your perception of such…
i don’t even know what a materialist dialectician is – will have to look it up… and after looking & reading a few definitions of such – i think it not a compliment & neither worthy of my time to research it further…
and i’m not sure what you perceive or consider to be the “material” world???
i think you misread the way i mean to say – “way to much is made of both of these” – i am not all negating them as though they don’t exist but the very fact that they do in fact exist & more normal than abnormal (as in their use in every day life in stead of something special that only happens once in a while).
“some do & some don’t.” – some practice it & recognize it & some don’t practice it or recognize it… i think that depends on our relationship (personal) with the Person Who gives/allows these prophecies/seeings to manifest in & through us…
if you can explain yourself further in what you were trying to say to me – i would appreciate it – i am a little simple when it comes to the scholarly/intellectual world – if i have any wisdom at all it comes from HIM & nothing from me unless i have read it somewhere & it downloaded into my hard drive & brought to memory… i am sure i am not as well read as you are & never will be but that does not negate my ability to understand or have wisdom from HIM in whatever or however He determines me (i may not even be making sense at this…)…
i’m sorry – i don’t feel very loved today & very empty & this didn’t help my feelings/mood about whatever is bothering me because i’m not sure i really know other than it makes me cry like now…
i did like the song though & i am listening to my heart & i’m not telling anyone goodbye but i do feel that is happening to me – just feel kinda numb today not sure why & sad & tearful & don’t know why but He will bring me through as He always does – He i can trust above all – even myself or my feelings – feelings are not faith – they are emotions that God gives us for a purpose & perhaps in time i will know what this day is/was about… 🙂
i don’t want to be perceived as a “materialist dialectician” because i’m pretty sure i’m not… ♥
jan
Hi Jan, sorry it has been a rough day and I hope the rest of the week will be better for you. I know what that can be like.
I enjoyed what you had to say and I agree with the whole intellect thing, I also have difficulty with this. I am no scholar, but I think those things can get in the way sometimes of hearing and seeing what YHVH is doing…:)
Don’t know you, but LOVE ya
“i think way to much is made of both of these actions.”
Hi Jan,
I’m sorry that my comments made you feel bad, that was not my intention.
Maybe I misinterpreted your comment above, I thought you were being playfully ironic.
And then intentionally contradicting yourself in subsequent comments.
I was not being serious or careful with my comments.
Regarding a “materialist dialectician,” I was just playing with words.
For me, the Hebrew mode of reasoniong is somewhat dialectical and “contradictory.”
And dynamic.
As opposed to the Greek mode of reasoning which is more analytical and “static.”
If I apply a dialectical mode of thought to history and economics I could be called a dialectical materialist.
Nothing wrong with that IMO but you might not want to be called one 🙂
On the other hand a materialist dialectician is really nothing.
But I thought you were trying to be contradictory about the material world.
Again, my apologies!
We all love you 🙂
Mike
Michael,
“I thought you were being playfully ironic. And then intentionally contradicting yourself in subsequent comments.” [i might know how to be playful but not smart enough to intentionally contradict myself but HE might be through me – see, sometimes we/i don’t know what i am saying but someone else might understand it because it is from Him to them & not me – does that make sense to you???].
“I was not being serious or careful with my comments.” [i was not so much concerned with your comments but what you likened me to ““materialist dialectician,” & after reading what one of those was/are – then i was saddened – don’t want to be one of those for sure… ♥]
although, i do consider myself to be very analytical & contradictory & know very little about the material world other than i don’t like it & have never experienced very much of it…
i accept your apology & forgive you too & who is “we” – you have a frog in your pocket?!?!?! 🙂 ♥
jan
“I… know very little about the material world other than i don’t like it & have never experienced very much of it”
“who is “we” – you have a frog in your pocket?!?!?! ♥”
Hi Jan,
Well I think we probably have different definitions of “material world;” for me it is, for example, the coffee and baristas at Peets 🙂
Well aren’t we all one community mandated to love one another 🙂
I believe that the Seer/prophet has the one common element in who they are and that is that they continue to turn the Hearts back to the Father, to Torah and the commandments/Feasts. He/she will always try to bring the Truth of the Word. They also are not people who stick out in a crowd etc.
I have not connected “personal” prophesy with being a prophet, there doesn’t seem to be foundation for it.??
I agree Jan these things come naturally when we just walk……
Shalom
Thank you Janet, i appreciate your affirmation – we are of one mind/spirit in this… ♥ jan
We should be functioning as a prophetic people and functioning within our sphere of influence as salt and light. This does not necessarily mean or necessitate that we are called to the office of a prophet.
The prophets of the Tanakh were hated and persecuted by the leaders and false prophets of their day, and yet were still faithful in their call and mission from YHWH. The burden of the word of the Lord. YHWH’s burden became their burden as they began to see the world through His eyes.
I believe the body of Messiah should be carrying this burden from Yeshua, and yet there are those within His body who are called to the office of a prophet, for the sake of the rest of the body, to awaken us to see the world through the eyes of Yeshua. Of course, all of this is the work of the Ruach HaKodesh!
If we truly awaken to this reality, we will be hated and persecuted by the world and those who are still operating by the spirit of this world. May we leap for joy when this happens!
Brian, I so agree “We should be functioning as a prophetic people and functioning within our sphere of influence as salt and light.”
“If we truly awaken to this reality, we will be hated and persecuted by the world and those who are still operating by the spirit of this world. May we leap for joy when this happens!” Leaping for joy usually doesn’t happen in the midst of the persecution but afterward when you see the fruit that comes from you seeing/prophesying to those He sent you & when they grow & are set free & begin to see/prophesy themselves – go & make disciples in all the world… ♥
jan
“Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on the account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven, for so their fathers did to the prophets. Luke 6:22-23
And when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ. Acts 5:40-42
We do not rejoice or leap for joy for the suffering, but on account and for the sake of the One we are called to suffer on the behalf of. This first passage from Luke came to mind concerning the prophets, and that the disciples suffering would be a link and common ground that they shared with the prophets of the Tanakh. Because of the disciples faithfulness to the call and mission of Jesus and the resulting persecution, they would be able to call to mind the former prophets and their sufferings, and rejoice because they were considered worthy as the prophets were, to suffer dishonor for the sake of the name.
The prayer of Moses has been heard and answered (“that all may prophecy”-Numbers 11.29) by the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua our Meshiach. Through His death, burial and resurrection we too may prophecy. I will now give a ten second lesson on “how to prophecy” or maybe I’ll write a book: “Prophecy for Dummies.” First, who is a prophet? One who speaks that which G-d has given unto him/her. Watch for the pattern here.. And the word of the LORD came unto_____, and the word of the LORD came unto ______, etc. All prophets gave what was given unto them- the word or the instructions of Elohim. What has been given unto us? How did you come to know Christ? (you do know Him, -right?) I know Him- you know Him by the word of the LORD delivered by the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Breath) unto us by a prophet. Some who knew G-d’s book and told us, proclaimed unto us “that which he/she received of the LORD”- they ‘delivered’ (by speaking His words) unto us. We simply “pass on” what G-d gives to us. We speak His words from His book. We plant a “seed” into someone’s heart. We plant, the Holy Spirit gives His “amen,” and G-d gives the increase- the “seed” takes root (in fertile soil) and grows, in some- bearing fruit for the glory of G-d.
So let us all “prophecy.” Should we, could we- say, “thus saith the LORD?” Can we, will we -proclaim (with great joy) ‘the word of G-d says’..” If we do- the “all will prophecy” for we do not speak our own words but rather- His.
Let us finish this with another prayer- straight from G-d’s Book. “Grant that Your bond-servants may continue to speak Your word with all confidence..” Amein! Now why would we want to speak His words? Because His words give life! (According to Yeshua-are we listening?)- the words He speaks unto us, (His words) are spirit (breath) and they are life. (John 6.63)
May I “prophecy” once again? (this is fun!). Jesus answered, “It is written: (three of my favorite words!) ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of G-d.” (John 6.63) Now who said that? Was it me? Did this originate with me? No. Brothers, sisters,- “listen to Him”- “whatever He says, -do it.”
Carl, i always learn from you & i am glad we are of one/mind spirit also… jan
I, too, am persuaded that there is such a thing as progressive revelation; that there are words, both written and spoken, that bear the Divine mark of authenticity and veracity in substantiating spiritual realities. To me that ability alone is the true test of a “word” and one I apply to determine for my own spiritual walk if the canonization of a “Sacred” writings was warranted or not (and they all were)!
I recall one such author in particular, who is not well know in the West, but whose words surged from the pages in torrential power to convict, reprove and instruct the spiritual reader. I always was convinced that I was reading an “inspired” word and not just an inspiring word.
To speak to the issue of prophets, prophecy and simply speaking spiritually, I believe that Scripture is clear that there is still the office of the prophet (I Cor 12:28 & Eph 4:11) who operate in the historical model of all the prophets of old, including Moshe, Yeshayahu, Yirmeyahu, Amos, et al whose very lives guided, chided, wooed and woed the chosen people of Israel and sometimes even their voices thundered or whispered: “Thus saith YHWH.”
And there are those, still to this day, who have the gift of prophesy whose main function is to edify, exhort and comfort the body of Messiah through their words given by the inspiration of the Ruach HaKodesh. ( I Cor 14:3)
Finally, there is our everyday speaking which, as believers, should be Spirit led and Spirit filled in all our intercourse with man. One need not have the mantel of prophet upon his or her shoulders, nor the gift of prophesy given by the Ruach HaKodesh to speak words that give life and not death. The difference, as I understand it, is in the origin or source of the words: our words come from our renewed spirit and are not “inspired” in the strict sense of the word, while the utterances of “Thus saith YHWH” are The Spirit speaking through the spirit and lips of a man or woman.
Skip, or anyone else who has any insight on this qestion.
Who were the “sons of the prophets?” It would almost seem (although PURELY speculation) as though there was a “school” of prophets, or at least they “hung out” together. Do you think that a number of people were chosen to be trained in “breaking down” the scriptures? (as odd as this sounds, I have reasons for this question)
Although insight (or perhaps alternate sight) is truly given as a gift, there are some who seem to be more “bent” in this direction than others. “Working” a gift always refines it. ie; There are some who have an instinct for buisness, and schooling sharpens that ability so that a “good” buisnessman becomes a “great” one.
Robert, I know that in the books of Samuel we read about the prophets in groups.
You’ll be reminded of King Saul that “was among the prophets” and prophesied as one of them at a stage.
Skip, thank you for explaining “the seer” to me. It caused me to start praying for myself that I might see through the same “window” as YHWH does; that I might see what He sees and see it the way He sees it.
Thank you, brother.
Besides the individuals called by God as prophets, there were several groups of “professional” prophets attached to the monarchy. If you think about it, you can understand why. If the will of God is the major factor in the history of men, then a king would want to have those around him who could determine the will of God. We actually have the same sort of thing today, except we call them czars and they serve the god of mammon. These are usually the people that God’s real prophets called “false prophets” because they told the king what he wanted to hear (sound familiar). Pharaoh had them too.
Sorry for the late response, it’s been busy!
Beautiful play on the letters in czars. It would seem that the result of the vision by the czaRs ended in being ruled over (rosh) whereas the vision of the czaH brought fruitfulness and/or abundance (hey), in the same way Sarai became Sara(H) They could RULE toward abundance if in line with God.
And let them have dominion over the………
Amen, brother Skip! How “blessed” David was to have his “Nathan.” Someone to confront him and through the power of the Ruach HaKodesh to convict him. The “arrow” Nathan turned loose on David struck him to the core. That “dagger” was buried past the hilt. Praise G-d for the convicting power of the Ruach HaKodesh. How we need these “Nathans” today, to lead us, guide us, guard us and gladden us. Had we never been convicted of our sin- where would be the need for repentance? And of course, had there been no repentance- there would have been no restoration of relationship.
How we (all) need the convicting power of the Holy Breath in our land, in our communities,in our families and in our daily lives- today..
AMEN, Carl – we all need “Nathans” in our lives – so totally agree with you on this one… ♥
jan
Michael, there is no “reply” to click on my last response or yours & i did not mark my response to your reply as not to appear – so what is going on with that?!?!!? Where is the geek when you need him??? 🙂
“Well aren’t we all one community mandated to love one another…”
Yes, if you are speaking of this community here at God’s Table – but i’m not sure i believe in the “world” as a community loving one another – i don’t believe that exists. i think God loves the world but not the sin of the sinful community – i believe there are sheep & goats existing together – wheat & tares till the Great Day of Separation…
we may be mandated but we don’t mandate very well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate
jan
btw: more of a realist this morning than a dreamer…
seems as if after a certain number of replies/responses to comments the “reply” option no longer appears & i don’t ever get the notifications of all my comments when someone replies (even though the “Notify me of follow-up comments via e-mail” is checked – works sometimes & sometimes it doesn’t – more the doesn’t – geek man what is up with this glitch???
“there is no “reply” to click on my last response or yours”
” i’m not sure i believe in the “world” as a community loving one another – i don’t believe that exists.”
Hi Jan,
I think you could have replied to the following comment of mine and it would work:
“Michael
August 10, 2011 at 2:12 am”
Regarding “the “world” as a community loving one another,” I agree it doesn’t exist, but I think we are supposed to try to create it 🙂
Mike, at least the “reply” option is back – working properly instead of disappearing… ♥ maybe geek overheard… 🙂
create or mandate?!?!?!
are you a “peetnik?” i’m sitting here listening to it rain gently & see lightening through the window & hear faint thunder – it is such a blessing from God to get rain in this dry & thirsty land…
jan
create or mandate?!?!?!
I think both
Most days I walk my dog and get a cup of coffee at Peet’s
I’m sitting here with my son, who is awake in the next room (can’t sleep)
He plays too much computer, but now he is reading The Old man and the Sea (6:00 am)
Mike,
mighty fine diversion: He plays too much computer, but…”now he is reading The Old man and the Sea (6:00 am)”
AND – we have had more rain all through the night – it is so glorious & the temp is way down from in the three digit numbers – i shot some photos of fungi that has popped up in the weeds/grass of my yard – wish i lad time lapse so i could see them grow so quickly – they look like little umbrellas – so cute – will post a link here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/flygirljc/sets/72157627298829991/ be sure to click on the photos to enlarge them & see the detail of the raindrops on the grass – first time i have captured that & just with an old cell phone / LGVU – (imagine that)… ♥
jan
all are welcome to behold God’s glory in His creation (photos)… ♥
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathom
Beautiful little photos of Feng Shui Fungi
Makes me think of the small but “deadly” man of war jellyfish
That I’ve encountered in the Mexican ocean along the beaches of Mazatlan
BTW while reading The Old Man, my son asked me twice what a “fathom” was
And when I looked it up I found the derivation of the Vitruvian Man by Leonardo da Vinci !!!
I wasn’t quite sure if a fathom were one yard or two 🙂
Mike, i will study the fathom & the Vitruvian Man – funny that i am watching Luxury Yachts on the Travel Channel – so gorgeous & so expensive – i could not even imagine – but is fun to look at them & dream…
i have stepped on jelly fish in the gulf in Corpus Christi while walking/jogging on the beach – not like the “man-o-war” for sure but they do sting even a dogs paw… ♥
i have never been on the shores/beaches of Mexico – only Texas, Alabama, Louisiana & Florida (the gulf shores) – was in San Fran but never got on the beach – was across the street from the beach but not on it & in the bay area close to the water & the beaver de havilland on the water but not in it or on it – the water – was a very restricted trip that i did not get to enjoy at all – maybe some day i will get to go back & enjoy the beaches in Northern CA… 🙂
thanks for responding & exchanging information/learning – love to learn new things also…
jan
remember our conversation about imagination | lunacy, madness, out of control – seems your favorite author was a tad bit lunatic himself (i would say that there was a generational curse in the family and/or mental illness – with God’s authority given us we have the power to break those curses through prayer (by fasting because some only come out/let go that way)…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway
His sister Ursula and his brother Leicester also committed suicide.[156] Added to Hemingway’s physical ailments was the additional problem that he had been a heavy drinker for most of his life.[114] Writing in “Ernest Hemingway: A Psychological Autopsy of a Suicide”, Christopher Martin evaluates the causes of the suicide: “Careful reading of Hemingway’s major biographies and his personal and public writings reveals evidence suggesting the presence of the following conditions during his lifetime: bipolar disorder, alcohol dependence, traumatic brain injury, and probable borderline and narcissistic personality traits”.[157] Martin claims suicide was inevitable because Hemingway “suffered from an enormous burden of psychiatric comorbidities and risk factors for suicide”, although without a clinical evaluation of the patient, Martin concedes a diagnosis is difficult.[157]
it also seems to me that a lot of really talented people are found to be in the same way above & so glad that it does not stain their creativity or the works that have come out of them (the gifts & callings are irrevocable) – they were put there in the being & the enemy comes along & steals part of their lives away but if God is sovereign like we believe Him to be – he allowed such or did does He allow us the choice to destroy ourselves because we don’t follow Him & Torah/Bible…
thinks to ponder in our hearts… ♥
“seems your favorite author was a tad bit lunatic himself”
Hi Jan,
Well Hemingway was not my favorite author, and when I was in college (70’s) he was way too macho to be appreciated by the scholars and for my taste at that time.
But I liked him a lot when I was a sophomore in high school and so I bought the Old Man and the Sea for my son who is in the 8th grade.
At this point in my life I see a simple beauty in Hemingway’s writing and am attracted to his vision of Man and Nature and to the nobility of some of his characters.
Of course Hemingway’s Old Man and the Sea cannot be compared with Herman Melville’s Moby Dick or Jonah’s story of the Whale.
But Hemingway was well aware of his own limitations and even with all his faults lived relatively “heroic” life IMO.
Mike,
again, there is no option to “reply” to your comment… 🙁
” in college (70′s) he was way too macho to be appreciated by the scholars and for my taste at that time.” who did you like (what authors) at that time in your life???
i’m not sure just what you mean by “too macho” to be appreciated by the scholars & yourself (for your taste at that time) – so what has changed since then & now in regard to his machoness (is that a word)???
i never even thought about Hemingway’s “machoness” – never even thought of him in that way – being macho – in your perception, how was he macho??? To me – he seems to be a man’s man (maybe that is macho to you at that time but not now)… the macho thing just threw me…
SO – who is your favorite author – then & now??? being macho & narcissistic (heroic) -he/hemingway may not have been at all aware of his own limitations – he may not have thought he had any limitations (imagine that)…
it will interesting to know the perception your young son has about hemingway after reading his/this book…
just pickin’ your brain…
jan
“SO – who is your favorite author – then & now???
Hmmm a most difficult question; then it was probably Melville and Dostoevski, but now I rarely have time to read fiction.
A few years ago, I went through a very difficult period and read two books, both of which were extremely powerful and brilliantly written IMO:
– Never Let Me Go (2005) is a dystopian science fiction novel by Japanese-born British author Kazuo Ishiguro. It was shortlisted for the 2005 Booker Prize
– The Road (2006) is a novel by American writer Cormac McCarthy. It is a post-apocalyptic tale of a journey taken by a father and his young son over a period of several months…The novel was awarded the 2007 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction
Niether of the movies appealed much to me.
Regarding Hemingway’s machismo, its counterpart around that time could be found in the masculinity of John Wayne and the femininity and flirtatiousness of Marilyn Monroe.
Bob Dylan music and movies directed by Jean Luc Godard, which appealed to me, were a sort of leftist intellectualized reaction to the popular culture of that time.
Now I enjoy watching Salt, where the heroine (Angelina Jolie) is a female version of the manly Matt Damon in the Bourne Identity.
No more androgynous ideal (The Scarlet Letter), it is all a very “masculine” world now, or so it seems to me 🙂
Mike, thanks for your response(s) & letting me pick your brain…
I have not read Melville or Dostoevsky but i have heard of them before today – never been a fiction reader myself – not even the classics but do read non-fiction always…
i like this about Dostoevsky:
His tombstone reads; Verily, Verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. (Excerpt from John 12:24, which is also the epigraph of his final novel, The Brothers Karamazov.)
so there were movies made from the two books you write/type about above??? you must think i’m not of this world but another because i don’t know much of what you know intellectually… ♥
“Regarding Hemingway’s machismo, its counterpart around that time could be found in the masculinity of John Wayne and the femininity and flirtatiousness of Marilyn Monroe.” you mean ‘bravado” or over doing it – a little too much – kinda fake?!?!?! maybe not even authentic – but i do like the fiery Irish red head that made many movies with John Wayne – Maureen O’Hara – her i did like as well as Katherine Hepburn & Audrey Hepburn…
i really liked “Salt” but i liked “The Tourist” even better – not so harsh & a who-done-it movie – sort of very classy to me…
AND THIS…
“No more androgynous ideal (The Scarlet Letter), it is all a very “masculine” world now, or so it seems to me” i don’t really understand or catch your thought on this one in regard to the Scarlet Letter (although i know someone that may be in that same predicament) – and being a woman, i don’t see it as a very masculine world at all – see women doing so much more these days that only men used to do – now maybe you are really a “woman” instead of a “man” & you might still see this world as still very “masculine.” Again, we are back to who-is-it instead of who-done-it – reveal thyself… 🙂
sometimes you talk/type way over my head & i may sound really uneducated with my responses but i am trying really hard to understand what is in your head that comes out your fingers or how good your glass of wine is… 🙂
jan ♥
“Dostoevsky:
His tombstone reads; Verily, Verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.”
“so there were movies made from the two books you write/type about above???”
“Regarding Hemingway’s machismo kinda fake?!?!?! ”
Hi Jan,
That is a great quote and The Brothers Karamazov had a big impact on me in my senior year (1973).
I don’t think movies can do justice to those novels though.
Hemingway’s machismo was not fake, it was just out of style when I was in college.
I grew up with John Wayne and Maureen O’Hara in the 50’s and the 60’s were a Jewish revolution for me.
From an alienated post war Amerika to a new age where Freud and Marx were the order of the day.
The androgynous ideal was a symbol of wholeness and fullfilment; originating in Genesis 1:27, and found at end of great romantic tragedies such as Shakespeare’s Antony and Cleopatra.
In my view, Hawthorne’s Scarlet Letter was an allegory of the Androgynous soul.
In any case, that was how I saw the world until I moved to San Francisco in 1980 and started to work on computer programs.
Now the academic world of literature seems rather remote to me, but that experience comes in handy when watching movies or reading the Bible 🙂
I’M GOING TO RESPOND IN CAPS TO DENOTE THE/MY ANSWER OR COMMENT:
Michael
August 14, 2011 at 2:40 am
“Dostoevsky:
His tombstone reads; Verily, Verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.”
“so there were movies made from the two books you write/type about above???”
“Regarding Hemingway’s machismo kinda fake?!?!?! ”
Hi Jan,
That is a great quote and The Brothers Karamazov had a big impact on me in my senior year (1973). NEVER READ THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV – WILL WICKI IT… 🙂
I don’t think movies can do justice to those novels though. OKAY – SOMETIMES THEY DON’T…
Hemingway’s machismo was not fake, it was just out of style when I was in college. I HAVE NEVER KNOWN “MACHISMO/MACHONESS” TO BE OUT OF STYLE BUT THEN I WAS NEVER ONE TO LET MY PEERS INFLUENCE ME MUCH..
I grew up with John Wayne and Maureen O’Hara in the 50′s and the 60′s were a Jewish revolution for me. ???? NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HERE… 🙂
From an alienated post war Amerika to a new age where Freud and Marx were the order of the day. NOT LIKE THAT FREUD & MARX WERE THE ORDER OF ANY DAY… 🙁
The androgynous ideal was a symbol of wholeness and fullfilment; originating in Genesis 1:27, and found at end of great romantic tragedies such as Shakespeare’s Antony and Cleopatra. I GOOGLED “ANDROGYNOUS IDEAL” & FOUND A FEW THINGS THAT DIDN’T INDICATE THE SYMBOL OF WHOLENESS & FULFILLMENT BUT I DO THINK THAT MEN & WOMEN HAVE PARTS OF THEM IN EACH OTHER/CHARACTERISTICS/TRAITS, ETC – LIKE A WOMAN CAN HAVE MASCULINE TRAITS & A MAN CAN HAVE FEMININE TRAITS (i think i have too much testosterone)…
In my view, Hawthorne’s Scarlet Letter was an allegory of the Androgynous soul. THE SCARLET LETTER – HAD BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE I THOUGHT OF THAT NOVEL/BOOK & READ THE SYNOPSIS ON WIKIPEDIA & HAD NOT REMEMBERED IT ALL – KINDA SAD TO ME… 🙁 WAS THERE TRULY WHOLENESS & FULFILLMENT IN THAT NOVEL OR JUST IN THE ANDROGYNOUS IDEAL/SOUL (i’m still not sure i am understanding that one)???
In any case, that was how I saw the world until I moved to San Francisco in 1980 and started to work on computer programs. SO HOW DID MOVING TO SAN FRAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE???
Now the academic world of literature seems rather remote to me, but that experience comes in handy when watching movies or reading the Bible…RELATIONAL FOR SURE…
just more questions for sure but i think you are an interesting person & i do like to pick your brain – hope you don’t mind the asking/picking…
jan
oh, btw: when you use IMO – it brings to mind the series “The Good Wife” (ezer kenegdo) & there was one judge when they would be presenting a case in court that always “demanded/mandated” that you end your pleas/questions/statements with “in my opinion!” the two attorneys would always roll their eyes at one another (like how petty but mandated by the judge over the court)… 🙂
–Now the academic world of literature seems rather remote to me, but that experience comes in handy when watching movies or reading the Bible —
good morning all- I’ve been reading someone else’s mail this morning.. “interesting comments..”
I have this to say about that…- Are we (it seems) sometimes.. more interested in the artificial over the authentic? My HDTV (I don’t have one, btw) reveals a controlled environment in which life is represented. Everything is scripted, emotionally satisfying (sometimes) and of coursed..- entertaining. I call it (sometimes)- the angel (messenger) of light- Presented to you (and to me) “in living color.” A set-top box “preaching” (proclaiming) a message of sorts into our homes (and minds)- twenty-four seven in amazing clarity and detail. – Why,- it’s almost as good as “looking out my back door..” Except for one thing..- it is all “artificial.” Like artificial sweetener (yuck!)- or worse yet- artificial butter- (which is one molecule away from being plastic.)
Here is our choice. (Isn’t it wonderful we get to choose?) True (authentic) or false (artificial). May I ask this question (of all readers..)- Is the word of G-d true? Is it Genuine? Authentic? Real? Do these ancient words “apply” to mank ind today? (purposeful spelling of mankind for humor’s sake). Do we spend more time in front of (excuse me if I offend) -the “boob-tube”- than we do reading, meditating, studying- the words that give life? Do the word of G-d and the T.V. guide share equal importance in our lives? Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.” (Zechariah 4.6)
What does this verse -this portion of scripture, this word from the Word-this teaching- have to do with the price of tea in China? Who was this Zerubbabel? Does it matter-who he was? What is the meaning of his name? – Why should we care? Do we have a “mandate” to study the scriptures? – Do we?
Yeshua said, -the words I speak unto you- they are spirit and they are life..- Where then-can I find the words this man spoke? Are they written in a book somewhere? Is He an Author also? The Author (and Completer/Perfecter) of our faith? Where does “faith” come from and is “faith” important to G-d? “Without faith it is impossible to please G-d.” – Why would anyone want to please G-d? I did not say “appease”, I said please. “Faith” puts a smile on the face of G-d. Faith is pleasing to Him.
“The just shall live by faith.” -For we walk by faith, not by sight.. Oh? – do we? – what’s on t.v.? Where does “faith” come from? -The only way we can get a tan is to expose ourselves to the light. Nothing grows without light. But there are some among us who prefer the dark. Who is the Light of the world- and how may we get to know Him? (Light is that which reveals..) “If you abide in me and my words abide in you..”- Who said that? when and why?
We each are gifted with twenty four hours in the day.. Love is sometimes spelled t-i-m-e. I would love to spend time with Someone I love today.. but first- I must give my heart away..-it does not belong to me, -it belongs to Another.
Thanks Carl for your comments & reading our/the mail – i appreciate your involvement – two or more heads are better than one & i like discussion – helps me think straight & hear others take on things – i can’t speak for Mike but hopefully he doesn’t care either…
IN REGARD TO THIS: “–Now the academic world of literature seems rather remote to me, but that experience comes in handy when watching movies or reading the Bible –” i am glad that Mike has this info downloaded in his memory banks & shares it here – otherwise i may have never known it – not that i need to know – don’t know how important it is to know it but it helps me understand certain things better – it is relational for sure & to be honest with you – i’m glad that “the academic world of literature seems rather remote” to Mike – perhaps there has been a shift in his mindset of what is important & what isn’t but he is a wealth of classical literature walking… perhaps Mikes purpose in life has sifted to the right now instead of being “leftist intellectualized.”
Carl, i know this discourse may not be edifying or of importance to you but it is a part of Mike & he is our brother here – perhaps these things must be shared here to come out & be replaced with more important things now – i count it as learning about a brother & sisters here & you Carl seem perfect to me in His will & you share that with us too & you have also shared your state of being before Christ but your strength is what carries a lot of us here also – your knowledge of the Word of God is astounding to me.
t-i-m-e – when i looked at that – i saw “ti(e) me” to the Word or em it – what does em it mean???
we are all on the journey at different places on the road & i like to hear where others have been & where they are going… ♥
jan