A Case of Mistaken Identity
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.” Matthew 5:18 NASB
All is accomplished – When do the words of Torah pass away? When are God’s instructions for living no longer applicable to you? According to both Jews and Christians, the Torah became obsolete when Yeshua died on the cross. Yes, that’s right, even Jewish rabbis acknowledge that Yeshua’s death was the end of the Torah – as far as Christians are concerned. Jewish scholars and rabbis recognize that as early as Origen (between 200 and 250AD) and certainly by the time of Ambrose (340AD), Christianity embraced replacement theology. The Torah no longer applied. The “Law” was nailed to the cross with Jesus. This historical fact allows even scholars like Abraham Heschel to claim that “Jesus” overthrew Torah.
But it’s a case of mistaken identity. In all the material I have read from a Jewish perspective, one striking fact emerges. Jews are not responding to the actual claims of Yeshua. They are responding to what Christians have said about those claims. The same fact emerges about Paul. Over and over, Jewish believers reject Yeshua and Sha’ul because Christian theologians say that these men replaced Torah. Even when they cite verses like this one, they defer to the interpretations of Christian proponents. In other words, Jews react to Christian claims about Jesus and Paul, not to the actual words of Yeshua and Sha’ul. Since Christianity has been claiming that Torah doesn’t apply since the time of Origen, is it any wonder that Jews reject the claim that “Jesus is the Messiah”? No Jewish Messiah would ever, not in a million years, discard Torah. Therefore, as long as Christians continue to assert the abrogation of Torah, Jews will and must reject the Christian Jesus. All of the Christian efforts to “convert” Jews to Christianity are tantamount to an appeal to paganism. It is hopelessly deficient because the central issue separating Jews and Christians is not “Jesus.” It is Torah! As long as Christians continue to embrace the theologically unsupported idea of Torah “fulfillment” (abandonment), Jews will rightfully reject the Christian Jesus.
We who follow YHWH from an Hebraic perspective realize what a travesty this is. Two thousand years of unnecessary separation because a small group of Greek-educated, politically savvy men drew lines in the sand in order to make Christianity something other than Jewish. Two thousand years of animosity, violence, fragmentation. Two thousand years of bloodshed. Over what? Over the attempt of a few individuals to carve out their own religious uniqueness. Today even our English Bibles contain the unmistakable veneer of this deliberate division. When the NASB translates the Greek an panta genetai as “all is accomplished,” it incorporates a contradiction into this very sentence, a contradiction that would not exist if the translators had recognized that Yeshua was speaking Hebrew. What is the contradiction? How can “all is accomplished” be about the death on the cross when the first part of the verse makes it clear that Torah will be in effect until “heaven and earth pass away”? Did the cosmos suddenly collapse when Yeshua died at Golgotha? Not the last time I looked. So why would Yeshua say in one breath that the Torah will last until the end of the earth and in the next breath say that it will end when His life ends?
But if we recognize that Yeshua is speaking Hebrew, then there is no contradiction because in Hebrew the phrase doesn’t mean “all is accomplished;” it means “all is filled up.” The Torah will pass away when everything God has in store for His redemptive purposes is completely full. Not at the cross! At the final end. The cross is only the guarantee that everything else will happen. But it hasn’t been filled up yet. The glass isn’t filled to the brim. There is more to come – like the return of the King. Until then, Torah continues.
Only men who wanted to get rid of Torah would be brave enough to translate and interpret this verse with an inherent contradiction – which they can later explain away through paradigm-dependent theology. But if Yeshua didn’t say this, why in the world do Christians believe it? Does that make any sense at all? Hopefully not.
Of course, there is still one huge problem. Jews still think that we believe Torah doesn’t matter. So, how are you going to fix that?
Topical Index: Matthew 5:18, all is accomplished, an panta genetai, Torah, Jews
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.” Matthew 5:18 NASB
Who is speaking here? Who said this? Let us go to the Source. Not he said/she said, they said- these words were spoken by Who? -the LORD Yeshua (who is the ever Living) MaShiach, the Word of G-d Incarnate.
For truly “I” say unto you. For you have heard it said- “but I say unto you.” We (none of us) care about tradition, or family, or culture, or the opinions or the imaginations of man- what we thirst for, what we hunger for are the word(s) of G-d. And where are these words to be found? -Bound in a Book, a Book like unto no other- the Word of G-d, our Bible.
The instructions of YHWH are clear. This is the Torah. Every word of G-d is Torah and the Law of the LORD is perfect reviving the soul. Stop. (yes,.. Selah!- the pause that refreshes!) Stop and think about that!. The Law of the LORD. Stop.- Whose law? The Law of the LORD. The LORD. The LORD.
This, dear friends is His Book.These, dear family are His words. These words did not originate with me or you or anyone else on this green planet but were spoken by the ever present, Ruach Hakodesh, the Breath of G-d to the authors of the scripture. These are very ancient words, and yet they read like today’s newspaper. They are as fresh today as they were before the ink(?) on the papyrus was dry. These words were writtten so long ago and by so many different authors and over a period of time spanning centuries and yet these words are so cohesive, so coordinated, so life-giving and life sustaining- how can these things be? – And yet, there is still more…- always more!
“I will honor My word above My Name.” Who said that? G-d did. In His Book. To disregard God’s Word that is holy, pure and absolutely true is to defame G-d’s Name and character. It is to bring ruin upon our walk. So it becomes the main focus point in our daily walk with Christ.
Christ Himself said, “the words I speak unto you they are Breath and they are Life.j.. “Search the scriptures..”- it’s in there!
“Study to show yourselves approved unto G-d, a workman that does not need to be ashamed..” Who said that? G-d did. What are His instructions? What is the Torah of G-d? To study. Study what? Study the scriptures- every jot, every tittle- “every word of G-d is pure” How does anyone know this? “It is written..” (if I ever got a ‘tat’- this would be the one!- “it is written!”)
“These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10.11) lol! – (This is getting too easy folks!- where is my “Easy” button?) Who is “them?” and who is “us?”
“Them” is Abraham, Isaac and Joseph. Moses, David, Esther, Abigail. -Real people, y’all. And here is something amazing..- The very same G-d Abraham knew and loved is the very same ONE who is present with us, right here- right now.. and He has invited us into a personal one on one relationship with Him for the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
Shall we look into these things? We have been invited (His invitation) to do so. The veil of the temple was torn in two. If we ever grasp the significance of this- we also would become torn in two.
The incarnation of the Christ is “mind blowing”. That G-d, our Creator would humble Himself and become a man. (once again..) Selah. Consider this- think about it. Think long and hard- why would G-d want to become a man? – just like you- just like me,- only different! For this was the only “just” man ever to have lived! The carpenter’s son, the second Adam, son of G-d and G-d the crucified, buried, resurrected, now living, now interceding Annointed ONE. King of all kings and LORD of all lords- any questions?
Ignore tHis book at your peril. We (each) have a Textbook and we have a Teacher. According to “it is written” in the inspired book of John, chapter fourteen and verse twenty six- But when the Father sends the Advocate as My representative—that is, the Holy Breath—He will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.” No comment.- None. Read it. Read it again and again. Who spoke these words and to whom was He speaking? Who is your Teacher? Who is the Author of this Book of Instructions?
Looking for Torah? Start with Genesis 1.1 and proceed slowly. Do not forget to “shema” for “man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of G-d.” How does anyone know these things? Realize and recognize- “it is written.” These are my words, -may they be pleasing in the eyes of my Heavenly Boaz, the LORD Yeshua (who is the) Christ.
There is a cure for this “division.” G-d was in Christ- reconciling the world unto Himself. In the words of (the) Christ, “bring him to me..” This “him” is me! and this “him” is you!- We (all-both Jew and Greek) need a Savior (who is Christ the LORD).
Unity is found “in Christ.” “But if we walk in The Light as he is in The Light, we have communion with each other and the blood of Yeshua his Son purges us from all of our sins.” (1 John 1.7) “Thy word is a Lamp unto my feet..-and a Light unto my path.” We fellowship together “At G-d’s Table!” Each of us feasting on the riches of His grace..
Salvation (deliverance) is to the Jew first. Always has been- always will be. But it is also to the Greek. Salvation (deliverance) is offered to “whosoever will!” Salvation is inclusive. All may participate. The poor, the halt, the maimed, the blind, male, female, Jew- Barbarian- Christ died for all.
Does this include the Jew? Are the Jews included in tHis invitation? “whosoever will.” What about the plumber, the painter, the poet? -“whosoever will.”
The veil of the temple was torn in two and yes, torn from top to bottom. Who ripped this veil and why? G-d did it but what does this say to you Mr. Jew? G-d did it but what does this mean to the Gentiles? It says “whosoever will may come”. We (all) now may enjoy equal access to the very throne of G-d. “Come unto me” are the words of our Master. “Enter in.”
I am not the high priest, but I do have a High Priest- ONE who intercedes on my behalf. What is His Name? I’m glad you asked.. Let me share some good news..The Gospel (good news) of Christ.
I am not a prophet, but I have a Prophet. May I share the Good News of tHis name with you?
I am not a king, but I know a King. May I share the Good News of tHis name with you?
I also have (and enjoy!) a Redeemer, a Savior, a Comforter and an eternal Friend. May I share the Good News of tHis Name with you?
I know HIm and yet I do not know Him fully for all has not yet been accomplished. Right now, I only know Him partially, but then “face to face.” I’ve never seen Him and yet I love Him.- Why is this true? and why is this glorious reality becoming incarnated into my life? I am going through “the change..”
G-d is transforming me. I am in the process of a metamorphosis, and am being conformed into the image of the Son, and yes, I have felt the associated “growing pains!” lol!
Do I have all the answers? No, I do not. Don’t look to me- look to Him! He is the ONE!.
Is the gospel (the good news) of Christ, Jewish? The Lamb of G-d crucified on Passover? Are you kidding me? I believe the word for this is “oy!” Behold the Lamb! This is the central them of the entire Book! -Is this Jewish?- “oy!” Over and over and over (and over!)- so Jewish. Even I am a Jew! I am the adopted one-I am the one adopted into the covenant promises of Abraham!- not the Jew! Twice-born Jews are not “converted”- they are “completed!” Just as I have been and am becoming “completed” in Christ!
“Shema.” (I’m really becoming fond of this incredible word!) “If any man be “in Christ.” (1 Corinthians 5.17)
Shall we start up a list of who might be “any man?” I’m going to make a superhero cape with the words “any man” inscribed upon it..- Our new superhero: “any-man!” lol!
Any man. Any woman. Any child. “Whosoever will” may come! “Come unto me- “all”. From every kindred, every tribe, on this terrestrial ball.. “Whosoever will” is both inclusive and exclusive for this also includes the “whosoever wonts!” I will not come to Christ. I will not receive Him as my Savior and LORD. I will not have this Man to reign over me. Christ makes me uncomfortable. Christ bothers me. – Talk to the hand G-d for the heart ain’t listening. I’m comfortable in my sin and in my chosen lifestyle. I have my possessions, my pride, my position, my prestige, my power, my powers of persuasion, my pleasures- why do I need a Savior? Yes, why indeed do we need a Savior?- Or do we?
Choose you this day whom you will serve, but choose wisely for every choice is followed by consequence. Good choices result in good consequences and vice versa-according to the Law of the Harvest-and according to the words of our Master-we will reap what we sow. We cannot sow our wild oats, and then pray for crop failure!
“Serve the LORD with gladness! -come before His presence with singing!” Know this. The LORD- He is G-d! It is He who has made us and not we ourselves..- What do you have that you have not been given? What has He given unto us? (only) -all things that pertain unto life and godliness. (“oy!”) lol! – Oy? or Joy!”
We live by the Book. The Law of the LORD – the Torah of G-d- the Instructions of our Master Teacher. “Rejoice in the LORD always- and again I say (repetition is a good thing!- amen?) Rejoice!- Why?
What reasons do we have to rejoice? lol!- (No “pity parties please!”)
“Beloved, *now are we the children of G-d, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.” is this Oy?-or Joy?
“Of course, there is still one huge problem. Jews still think that we believe Torah doesn’t matter. So, how are you going to fix that?”
There’s a common phrase going around that goes something like this; JUST DO IT!! 🙂
This is interesting, I was just reading this passage the other day and I realized that the word parachomai (pass away) isn’t about leaving or going but rather about remaining attached in the coming or going (movement). Kinda like a para-chute. the chute has a funtion that is accomplished only if it is ATTACHED (para) 🙂 !!
Anyway, thank you for this word today. I sometimes have a hard time not being angry over this particular issue in the sense that I want to transfer that anger to the person instead of the issue. God is teaching me patience and compassion through the realization that they are only doing what they are taught (in ignorance) and it takes love, mercy and compassion (the same stuff that was extended to me) to overcome it. The deception runs deep!! Truly the adversary poses as a minister of light.
robert,
i have seen you type/insert this same paragraph before: “Anyway, thank you for this word today. I sometimes have a hard time not being angry over this particular issue in the sense that I want to transfer that anger to the person instead of the issue. God is teaching me patience and compassion through the realization that they are only doing what they are taught (in ignorance) and it takes love, mercy and compassion (the same stuff that was extended to me) to overcome it. The deception runs deep!! Truly the adversary poses as a minister of light.” THAT LAST SENTENCE BOTHERS ME… ??? jan
How so?
Truly the adversary poses as a minister of light.” THAT LAST SENTENCE BOTHERS ME… ??? jan
Reply
robert lafoy
October 31, 2011 at 8:51 am
How so?
it just seems out of place – like came out of nowhere – does it belong there because it confuses me – i don’t understand where it is coming from or why it was typed/inserted there – can you or will you explain why you typed it or what prompted the thought to type it – it just seems odd so i thought i would question it/you in your reason 4 it…
i have tried to understand what/why you inserted that last sentence – are you saying that there is a wolf in sheep’s clothing – that you are being deceived or is someone appearing as a light but you think it is the adversary – just wondering & curios about what you meant…
jan
I visited the church of a family member last year. The program contained a skit portraying the pregnant Mary’s thoughts about the burden of keeping the Law year year after year.The premise here pointed to the Christian teaching for the imminent birth of the One who would soon do away with the Law. Having once been conditioned and indoctrinated with this very teaching, I would have been shoutin’ happy over this concept, however, now it saddens me to see this taught and then see how loosely we pursue and hold onto YHWH and all He has to teach us.
The bright light here, however, is Yeshua the Christ, our Deliverer; ALL of Who He is, the FULLNESS of YHWH with us and the Spirit’s ability to lead us into ALL truth.
Excellent exposition on a key verse Skip.
In the past few years, even Messianic Jewish (MJ) leaders have veered towards what is called a “Two Torah” position. This does not imply an oral Torah and written Torah perspective as discussed in the Judaic community but a Torah for the Jew and a Torah for the Gentile. It seems that some MJ leaders and more MJ believers are moving towards the belief that everything was fulfilled in Yeshua so they don’t need to eat kosher, observe the Shabbat, keep the biblical festivals etc. They may still do it, to keep the unity within the congregations and communities of faith they oversee or are a part of… but in their hearts, they’ve moved away from feeling they need to be Torah-observant.
As you mentioned in your discussion of Matthew 5:18, much of it is because of the continual intellectual rhetoric they hear from mainstream Christianity on the issue. A common statement I will hear is: “If your identity is in Jesus now, then why do you need to observe the Law? (which in their mind does not have the Hebraic connotation of “teachings”). My answer to them is, “What made up Yeshua’s identity? Christmas, Easter, Sunday, systematic theology and the common church liturgy of today?” I don’t think so.
In the same light, I share with them that Yeshua did not observe or live according to certain patterns and rhythms of life because they were Jewish, but because they had to do with the Kingdom way of life He established that would allow them to be in the world but not a part of it. There is a distinction between the two.
At the end of the day, I believe what II Timothy 2:19 (Amplified) says, “But the firm foundation [laid by] God stands, sure and unshaken, bearing this seal [inscription]: The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let every one who names [himself by] the name of the Lord give up all iniquity and stand aloof from it.”
In the end, “by their fruits you will know them…” in times of bliss or adversity. A person’s identity in the true Yeshua will reveal itself on a daily basis and convict either unbelieving Jew or Gentile when the time is right.
I just finished celebrating the 8-day Sukkot or Feast of Tabernacles festival with a group of 100 plus believers in Phoenix, AZ that came from around the world. Most of them have been observing it for over 20-30 years as I have. They’re not all more righteous than any one else. In fact, many of them have their odd dispositions, idiosyncrasies etc. but they understand what the joy of the Lord is when it comes to dwelling in unity and harmony. Like those who kept the Feast in Jerusalem this year, all nations flowed to the Holy City and “lived out” what will soon come to be in the world to come. It’s one thing to study it. It’s another thing to “live it out.” That is what Yeshua came to reveal.
To finish, on the Last Great Day of the Feast (Oct.20) after the last service ended, we finished in joyous song and prayer and then all met at a beautiful Persian restaurant for lunch. I happened to be waiting in the women’s restroom and found myself standing alongside two ladies in their 60s. They asked me quizzically, “What huge group is out there in the middle of the day? There seem to be old people, children, parents…” I said, “Oh…we’re a religious group that’s celebrating a festival together.” They said, “What kind is it?” My friend standing next to me in line said, “Christian.” Then I told the two ladies, “We’re observing Sukkot or the Feast of Tabernacles.” At that moment their eyes lit up and they both said almost simultaneously…”OH! We’re Jewish. You all keep Sukkot?” At that moment, MY eyes lit up when I heard they were Jewish. I said, “Yes! We’ve been observing it for years.” They asked what denomination we were and we said, “Non-denominational.”
Unfortunately or fortunately (depending how you look at it), a stall opened up and our conversation ended but nevertheless, I’m sure the conversation we had perked their curiosity. It made me reflect on how there will be a time when Jew and Gentile will be ONE in Yeshua and all nations will flow to Jerusalem to keep the Feast which represents a time when Heaven will come down to Earth and all the world will be in Shalom (the fullness, wholeness and completeness of God’s Divine Order). Yeah!
Oh…I forgot to mention, that in the meantime, major discussions, arguments, dialogue and debates will occur between religious scholars and believers on the issue concerning what it means to be Torah-keeping or Torah observant. http://www.therefinersfire.org/dr_michael_brown.htm but I think the most important thing is to handle these issues like Yeshua did. That’s why He says to come to Him for wisdom every day. In this way, one will know what to say for the “hope that lies within you” and when to keep silent. Every action and reaction will glorify God and His Kingdom purposes.
“He says to come to Him”
Hi Christina,
Is He (Yeshua) God or a “man-god” or a “mediator” in your view?
Some Jews might believe that Yeshua was a “manifestation” of God
But I don’t think an observant Jew would believe Yeshua is God
Around the corner from my condo there is an industrial park next to a creek
It is a nice park with big redwood trees and lawns and warehouse-like buildings
Some of the warehouse-like buildings have been taken over by various religious groups
There is a Korean Christian congregation and a number of Indian congregations
A while back one of groups put up a lighted poster with “Om-Sai” on it
One evening Max and I were walking by the building when two young Indian men came out
Because I work with a guy named Sai and HOmbre is my all-time favorite movie
I called out to the two young men, asking them what the meaning of Sai was
They got two big white smiles on their faces and said with great joy
“Sai was a man-god; you know, like Jesus”
And I replied back with great amusement:
“Oh, I did not know that, that’s good to know!” 🙂
“The Torah no longer applied. The “Law” was nailed to the cross with Jesus. ”
Skip, great post, great challenge at the end. Maybe there are some other factors to put in the mix.
When later Enlightenment philosophers attempted to abolish Christian morality, you have to ask if “Christianity” had already abolished Torah, why would their be a need to begin to describe the Medieval period as the “dark ages.” The only thing “dark” in this period for them, was the fact that medieval society was an attempt to put into place God’s Law – Torah. That’s why, for example, Alfred the Great took Exodus chapters 20 through 23 and wrote them into the laws of England. The church’s stand against usury which lasted close to 1,500 years is another evidence that Torah was not universally abandoned.
If it were, we are left with the task of explaining why Western culture out stripped every other culture in terms of political freedom, trial by jury (peers), expanding knowledge which led to technological advancement, and economic growth. This cannot be explained by the the suggestion that men were following HaSatan, and that he caused these phenomena. He is the Destroyer, the anti-Messiah, because it is the Messiah and his followers are the Builders. This is why it is a true saying, that “culture is religion externalized.”
Now I’m not saying that Western Culture as we see it today is “Christian” culture, but Christian morality certainly influenced it by their application of God’s law – Torah – influenced it enough to make it “different” – so different, that people want to leave their homeland and live in it. And that part that did influence was the application of God’s law – Torah. All the good we see in our culture – property rights, limited government, anti-divorce, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual – pro family, pro living at peace with my neighbor, pro helping those in need – is an application of Torah, and it is this that makes “the West” such a great target for immigration. And that, of course, means the American “West” which was built on the back of the Puritan “experiment”: applying God’s law to the whole of society.
There are Christian churches today that still hold to and teach Torah. No, they do not believe the ceremonial laws are to be kept as they were in the Old Testament. They insist on “good works”, defined as “Only those which proceed from a true faith, (a) are performed according to the law of God, (b) and to his glory; (c) and not such as are founded on our imaginations, or the institutions of men.”
Good works defined by the Law of God? That doesn’t sound like an abandonment of Torah, but a confirmation of it. Or consider this explanation of “Do not Steal”: “The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, theft, robbery, man-stealing, and receiving any thing that is stolen; fraudulent dealing, false weights and measures, removing landmarks, injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man, or in matters of trust;
oppression, extortion, usury, bribery, vexatious lawsuits, . . . and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbour what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves; envying at the prosperity of others; . . . etc”. This is just one attempt at summarizing Torah.
What is true is that this understanding of Christianity, never universal from the beginning, was later abandoned by the radical Anabaptist movement, which gained its real momentum under the Pietistic movement and they abandoned the law of God – Torah – for the inward leading of the Spirit – mysticism. Too much of contemporary Christianity has abandoned the faith of the fathers which was strong enough to create Christendom, provide a legal and political and therefore economic framework which was once the envy of the world, and a lifestyle that is the aspiration of most people.
Christianity is not the problem. Sin is the problem Man’s desire to be his own God (Gen. 3:5) is the problem, and any Christian teaching that diverts us away from Torah. Fortunately, not every Christian movement has been against Torah, and we live today in their shadow. The question for us is can we cast an even larger shadow of God’s Torah?
Or, as Skip asked so well, “So, how are you going to fix that?”
” Jews still think that we believe Torah doesn’t matter. So, how are you going to fix that?”
While the answer to the above question may appear to be obvious- that we who are grafted in should honor and keep Torah (not as a way to earn salvation, but evidence that we have received hesed and a new spirit in Messiach). But just as we Gentiles have inherited a Greek world view in which we view the world differently than the Semitic mind set, so the Jew has a culturally biased view. Often it is one that includes enmity against we Goy-and in most cases rightfully so, given the diaspora, pograms, persecutions, the Holocaust and our rejection of Torah as Yah’s standard. So yes, while our lives have not historically borne Torah fruit and that is a stumbling block to observant Jews we may need consider there are more than these “reverse” cultural bias factors at play here. There are obvious spiritual considerations involved as well; the factors of timing that YHWH has regarding the regathering of the lost tribes to the land and unification of the two peoples (yet in the future), and the continual work of ha-satan to keep all men in darkness and away from the knowledge of YHWH and His plans and purposes.
While some of us gentile believers are learning ( thanks Skip) to acknowledge our blind spots and ask Yah to give us light, it is legitimate to acknowledge that the Jews have their cultural blind spots as well. One aspect of that which may apply to us in this community is to realize we must not blindly follow the rabbis teachings simply because they are Jewish. Let us be careful and diligent not to esteem the opinions of men too highly.
“Jews have their cultural blind spots as well”
Hi Michael,
I think it is fair to say Jews have cultural blind spots, but when we read folks like Abraham Joshua Heschel or Rabbi Gorelik two things come to mind
On the one hand, I’m not sure there are many non-Jews who can discuss the Bible end to end with the same level of intellectual and spiritual understanding of Yeshua’s culture
On the other I am a fairly critical person, but I have never heard Rabbi Gorelik say anything that was indicative of a cultural blind spot or bias; he is a very smart common-sensical kind of guy
And my sense is that Skip is pretty much in agreement with the two Jewish Rabbis above, and Skip does not have any cultural blind spots 🙂
Michael,
No offense, but do you live in a cave or are you just new to the whole scholastic Hebraic and Judaic Studies movement which began at least a generation ago in universities and seminaries and has now even trickled down to the level of the lowest believer? Indeed there are now a multitude of scholars, both men and women-my wife being one of them, who as “non-Jews who can discuss the Bible end to end with the same level of intellectual and spiritual understanding of Yeshua’s culture”. But you act as if that is somehow the summum bonum of our study and our spiritual walk in Yeshua. It is not. While we can gain insights into the culture, origins, history, traditions and even the thought processes of YHWH’s chosen people in ancient times as we apply the tools of exegeses and hermeneutics- the greater revelation by which WE must walk must come from the Ruach HaKodesh regarding the death, burial and resurrection of Messiach Yeshua and this is where men like Abraham Joshua Heschel and all the learned Jewish rabbis-past and present-who do not know the new birth fall short. “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6
As to Skip’s blind spots- cultural or otherwise-I cannot personally speak, and I am not familiar with Rabbi Gorelik but since all men have blind spots and Skip and Bob are men, therefore it is logical to postulate that they both have blind spots. As do I. And apparently you. But let us get rid of the nonsensical idea that the ability to discuss the Bible “intelligently”, “understanding Yeshua’s culture” or being “a very smart common-sensical kind of guy” has any spiritual merit in the Kingdom of G*D. “For I say unto you, that unless your righteousness surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of the heavens”. Matthew 5:20
“No offense, but do you live in a cave or are you just new to the whole scholastic Hebraic and Judaic Studies movement which began at least a generation ago in universities and seminaries and has now even trickled down to the level of the lowest believer?”
Hi Michael,
No offense taken, I do live alone with my dog Max, but our place is a step up from a cave 🙂
And I am familiar with some of the scholastic Hebraic and Judaic Studies movement
At least that which is loosely affiliated with Duke University
I would agree that much of the work is very interesting for gentiles like myself
But I would not put any of these scholarly folks in the same boat with Abraham Joshua Heschel, spiritually speaking or intellectually speaking, when it comes to understanding the world of Yeshua
Because as Rabbi Gorelik points out, what Jesus says is mostly idiomatic and would have a very different meaning for Hebrew speaking Jews in that culture than what we “hear” today in our English translations
I would agree that regarding the death, burial and resurrection of Messiach Yeshua
Understanding the culture, origins, history, traditions and even the thought processes of YHWH’s chosen people in ancient times is of little importance
Because at that point Jesus is dead and none of us knows much about the after-life anyway
But the cultural knowledge that Jews share with Jesus is extremely important if we want to know how the Jewish Jesus acted and how he wanted his followers to act before they died 🙂
W. D. Davies, who was the George Washington Ivey Professor of Christian Origins at Duke is pretty interesting. His professor was C H. Dodd, and he had a colleague at Berkeley, David Daube who was a Jewish Scholar and law professor who he collaborated with often. His work began in the 40’s and is right in line with what we are learning today.
Heschel, is amazing. He is a philosopher, par excellence. He articulates Jewish culture like a true Ashkenaz, and when I read him, I can hear the collective religion of my ggrandparents’ (Polish/Russian) and American family, and many of my Jewish friends. Understanding Yeshua from His Jewish context almost has to be absorbed, not necessarily learned like Ancient History is in school. Rabbi Gorelik has a wonderful way of “telling it like it is” that brings out some of the nuance of the Jewish experience that is not encased in factoids.
“W. D. Davies, who was the George Washington Ivey Professor of Christian Origins at Duke is pretty interesting. His professor was C H. Dodd”
Hi Cheryl,
I was very interested by CH Dodd, but did not know of WD Davies
Obviously he was a brilliant man and a deeply spiritual man
And I would not want to take away anything from him
I probably did not say what I meant above
For me, when I began to understand the Hebrew worldview
In a sense negating the Christian worldview
Everything in the Bible became a lot simpler and clearer
Of course, there is still one huge problem. Jews still think that we believe Torah doesn’t matter. So, how are you going to fix that?
I believe that some answers above sometimes reiterate the problem rather than provide suggestions for solutions. While all the opinions are good, they do not really address the problem. In reading them, I see many terms being used that assume universal understanding. This is a very good example of the problem.
It seems to me that what Skip is saying, then asking, is that for 2,000 years there has been misunderstandings and animosity between Jews and Christians because early on, first Gentiles and then Jews, began hostile and reactionary self-definitions as “not” the other rather than seeking common ground in creating a community that was congruent with G_d’s view of Israel as a mixed community. The problem began after the destruction of the Temple, and the two revolts, and the removal of all Jews from Jerusalem. Instead of Torah, Gentile believers began to use other factors, such as Greek philosophy and existing paganism and Gnosticism to reinterpret the halachah of Yeshua and Sha’ul and even Torah itself to bolster their “anti Jewish” ideologies, as well as to establish their political security in the world.
Words and phrases began to take on colloquial meaning and carried the bias of that particular community. Many of those meanings as they do today, and as I see above, are not about believers and unbelievers, truth and falsehood, but rather about who was “right and wrong”. While today it encompasses much more, back then it usually meant Gentiles right, Jews wrong. No distinction was made between believer and unbeliever, only a religious distinction based on race.
Ironically, to ignore Jews is to ignore Yeshua, and eliminates the very basis of the word “Christ-ian”. Consequently, because of the Gentile actions, and also to a certain extent, the Jewish believers’ actions, the Rabbis began to define themselves as distinct from “the synagogue of the Christ followers” first because of the trouble they was causing the established Jewish community and then because they rightfully saw the emerging Gentile beliefs as idolatrous. The Gentile believers are the reason this happens. Their orthodox and heterodox definitions strayed further and further from the truth, causing the Rabbis to follow their lead in defining “good versus evil” rather than “truth versus falsehood”.
No longer were the groups attempting to find commonality as Sh’aul had constantly stressed, but rather the focus was the distinction of the “other”. As I read the above, I saw the same pattern. We, as Christians, define ourselves as not Jews. Even Messianic believers, as we see them are “Messianic Jews”. Additionally, we see non-believing Jews (like we can really know that) as “the Jews”, repeating a phrase that is really entrenched in the problem, not the solution (Gal. 3:28). How does G_d view the world; as Jews and Christians, no, there is Israel, and not Israel, so why do we make distinctions? How is it we have the authority to make changes?
So, the question to answer is, how do we, as Gentile and Jewish believers, (not Christians and Messianic Jews), create the amalgamated community “in Christ” that is the intention of the Gospel?
How do we avoid the traps of a theology that idolatrously “replaces” the one that G_d intends and that we STILL do not have, and continue to perpetuate through our defense of our “doctrines” artificial and false categories and divisions that we ALL unconsciously fall into (cultural bias) or bad habits? How do we define terms? Do they mesh with how Yeshua and Sh’aul used those terms or do they carry anachronistic concepts that have no place in the Hebrew worldview?
I would suggest that the only way to do that is to find a group of people who are committed to creating this type of community, begin to live out the stuff we learn from Torah about it, make it a daily walk, and then and only then, reach out to others who are missing such a huge part of the community “in Christ”. If we are not in a mixed community on some level, locally or online, and we are not pursuing Torah learning in view of how Yeshua and the Apostles viewed things, then we are not even on the first page and we are just continuing the aberrant trajectory of the last two millennia. Taking the first step would be a big improvement. I could be wrong, but as I see it, this is what is needed.
I agree Cheryl.
I would also add to your historical account what, in my opinion, became the last straw for the followers of The Way who clung by the skin of their teeth to the “non believing Jews”. When Rabbi Akkiva declared Barkokba the messiah, the believers in Yeshua had to make a break from them as this constituted following a false messiah. It is unclear where these folks wound up but there was also a division from the church of Asia Minor with the church of Rome in that same century over the issue of guarding Shabbat and Passover or replacing it with Sunday worship and the E word. It is fascinating to me that John wrote the letter that we now call the book of Revelation to the to the Asia minor congregations who ultimately made the decision to guard Shabbat and Pesach and remove themselves from idolatry. We always try to bring the dietary laws down to the rational of health but in reality it is an issue of idolatry and making a distinction between us and idolators. Good health may come from the practice but fellowship with YHVH Elohim is THE Real issue. The more I understand this , the more I shudder.
The communities you long for exist. We are small pockets of folks who can’t bare the messy antics and hold together in homes while spreading the word to friends and family in and out of Church and Judaism. We are all idolatrous at this point and we all need to come to grips with different issues. The only answers to our needs are in Torah.
I agree Pam,
The idea of R. Akiva saying Bar Kochbah was Messiah was as heinous to the Yeshua believers as their claim about Yeshua was to the followers of Akiva. It makes my point. We often define ourselves by what separates us RATHER than overlooking the things we have no control over, and trying to make Shalom and Torah the focus. Thanks for your comment!
I appreciate your intense desire to avoid unnecessary controversy. This is definitely my personal preference as well.
With that in mind we also must remember that YHVH is an Elohim of distinctions and we must continue to uphold those distinctions. Sometimes separations are necessary.
We are seeing Him in our day joining that new man back together. What it means is that people make yet another separation as they leave their idolatry to join themselves to
torah. The fact is that Yeshua said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” We just need to be careful that we aren’t causing divisions because of our own agendas.
What really hurts our hearts is to see those who have been brought out by Avinu’s sovereign grace show such contempt for those who are still where they were such a short time ago.
Sorry for all the typos earlier. I’m fighting a bad cold and was in a hurry to get to work.
I don’t have an intense desire to avoid unnecessary controversy. If you ask my classmates, and even Skip, I often stir the pot, which on occasion has caused separations. However, I believe that Shalom is not achieved by the insistence on being right! One cannot come to a peace treaty with the expectation that one will come away with all one came with as well as the other guy’s stuff. One has to reasonably expect that they will have to concede something. While there are certainly non-negotiable items, one would be foolish to expect the other to make all the concessions. My grandmother (raised in an Orthodox home) and I argued all the time. Sometimes about some pretty significant things. There were always things we would never agree on, however, our relationship, and the love for one another, was the ultimate decider on all things arguable. My point in the R. Akiva comment was that both had non-negotiable items that caused the rift. It was the insistence on right and wrong that drove the conflict. What Akiva held to be important was not what the people of the Way held to be important. Their fight was about who they would not follow, not how G_d would have them “be” as a community. They did not have love for one another when it came to being “right” about the messiah. Did Yeshua need someone to defend him?
Good morning Cheryl,
I’m sorry it took so long to get back to you on this. My job is keeping me very busy as well as exhausted by the end of the day.
I hope we are saying the same thing. I considered the need to be right to the point “that one will come away with all one came with as well as the other guy’s stuff.” “unnecessary controversy”
I put it this way “We just need to be careful that we aren’t causing divisions because of our own agendas.”
I have a son who is a full blown pagan complete with statues and shrines in his home. I love him with all my being. He is a good person. He knows what I believe and I understand his beliefs as he came by this practice by way of a practicing pagan mother in his youth. Her “conversion” to torahless “Christianity” in his pre-teens had little effect on him. We don’t even discuss these things. It is fruitless!
I dread the holidays. We have explained to all 5 of our children as well as 12 of our 15 grandchildren that because we now understand some things that we didn’t understand before, for us it is a matter of conscience and obedience to G-ds word that we not participate in the festivities that I taught them as children. They don’t like it but they honor our position and we are still a close knit family. Thanksgiving is our big holiday. We celebrate it as grateful Americans. I do the cooking so as to ensure that my husband and myself are eating clean food. This is our Shalom compromise.
HOWEVER! If our fellowship depended on my worshiping, or even affirming his worship of, false deities we would be in trouble. I can say this in certainty because we have another son in which this is the case. There is no fellowship. Not because we won’t go near him. It is he that won’t come around the family. If this were a matter of principle for him I believe that this could change. But it is a matter of not being able to be the leader/authority in the situation that keeps him away. He has 3 children that we have no relationship with because he welds his authority over them and won’t allow it. He MUST BE RIGHT and to prove it he must have followers. It’s a painful situation.
Now back to the Akiva/Bar Kochbah situation. As much as I love the Jews and perceive myself as a peacemaker, I’m inclined to believe that I would have made the choice to separate myself from Akiva’s followers and this is the reason. Biblically mandated self preservation. They knew that the uprising would amount to the massacre that followed just as they knew that the fall of Jerusalem was inevitable. Just as Moses had warned the people to come away from the tents of Korah, and Jeremiah had warned the people to surrender to the Babylonians, they had been commanded to “flee idolatry”.
“They did not have love for one another when it came to being “right” about the messiah. Did Yeshua need someone to defend him?”
Is this the “right ” question?
I do not believe they were trying to defend Yeshua. In my opinion, it became an issue of obedience to man vs. obedience to Yeshua Messiah. Shalom at any cost is not our Father’s nor his Son’s way.
Shalom Shalom dear sister.
Michael,
I agree with you…it does become a LOT clearer. In doing my Ph.D. work, I am reading a lot of Davis, among many others…try his “Christian Origens and Judaism” a collection of essays on NT Studies. Let me know what you think. You can reach me at drcdurham@gmail.com. I am very interested in getting feedback from believers on the road to a Hebraic understanding.
My question was rhetorical, not literal, and the issues was where to make the non-negotiable. Not if one should make them.