Some Humor After the 4th of July
One of our faithful readers and supporter, and a pastor, sent me this. I thought you might find it interesting.
Is this really important? I ask, “Is being holy or set apart important?” At the conclusion of the instruction regarding permissible foods, verse 44-45 says: “For I am YHVH your Elohim. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth. For I am YHVH who brought you up from the land of Egypt to be your Elohim; thus you shall be holy, for I am holy.’” It would seem clear from an honest reading of the scriptures, that what you eat can make you unclean, i.e. unholy. The Hebrew word for “unclean” in verse 7 is tame. It means either ritual or moral uncleaness. Both types of uncleanness is serious to YHVH. The Hebrew word for “holy” in verse 44 is qadhosh. It means both sacred ceremonially or morally. The idea is to be separate from the unclean. We as a community who follow YHVH and His Son Yeshua are to be separate from those who don’t follow Him. One way of separation is to make meals a sacred occasion. We eat what YHVH has said we may eat. Eating is not about my choices; eating is about following YHVH and His Son Yeshua. The community you are a member of is very important. Is your community clean or unclean?
The church invite means well. I will not be going. Candidly, I don’t think Yeshua will be going either, unless He brings His lunch.
~ and there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean ~
There are two words that are impossible for any man to say together- “No LORD.” For either Jesus is LORD of all,- or He is not LORD at all.
To say “no” to our Master would be rebellion. The fool has said in his heart- “no”, to God.” (talk to the hand). Never say “no” to the LORD. He is worthy of our complete “yes.”
~ for the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Ruach HaKodesh ~ (Romans 14.17)
~ it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person ~ Then the disciples came to Him and asked, “Do you realize You offended the Pharisees by what You just said?” He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. “Let them alone. They are blind guides of the blind; but if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat! Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?”
~ Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ ~
Common Christian interpretation of the story of Peter’s vision on the rooftop ignores both culture and religious commitment. It also ignores the rest of the story regarding Cornelius. I have written on this several times. The vision is NOT about food. It is about Peter’s denial of God’s choice to include the Gentiles. Please refer to the TWs in the past on this.
The same criticism should be raised about the oft-quoted passage in Mark (“in this way he made all food clean”). Tim Hegg, whom I have cited, has an excellent reasoned argument from the Greek text that demonstrates Christian exegesis suggesting the abolition of kashrut is in ERROR. Again, neither the culture nor the language will support the proposition that Torah has been set aside.
But the real punchline is probably Paul’s. “Would you cause a brother to stumble over what you EAT?” How foolish is that? See Mark Nanos on the culture and language of this passage in Romans.
Most Christians see the dietary instructions are RESTRICTIONS on their freedom. That attitude already reveals their Greek mindset. The message of Scripture, all of it, is not about FREEDOM. It is about obedience. To suggest that God’s instructions about what to eat and what not to eat LIMIT ME is to claim that I obey His precepts only when they don’t impinge on my way of life. Kashrut (kosher eating) is not about food. It is about honoring what God desires. If God told you not to eat brussel sprouts, would that seriously impinge on your way of life? So, what’s the difference if He asks you not to eat pig? You do it because He uses this as a way to set you apart by your behavior, not because pig is evil. Pig just isn’t food for human consumption. And not because you can’t eat it (like dirt) but because God asks you not to eat it.
It’s past time to read the text in its context and to pay attention to the meanings of the words to the audience that first heard them.
Dear Skip,
Your only part right. While you view the scripture as allegory – which it indeed is – it is also a literal meaning that ended with Jewish believers dispensing goyim believers from much of the Mosaic laws of observance. Here again, goyim are not to be forced but should not be discouraged either, if their devotion leads them to also embrace observance. Indeed this is at the root for much of the conflict today between Jews and christians – and especially catholics. During the entire time the temple stood, Jerusalem persecuted the hellenistic believers for both believing that Jesus was the Mashiach and for allowing uncircumcized goyim into their religious assemblies as well as dispensing with many of the laws regarding observance. Not surprisingly, when the temple was destroyed the believers had no desire to see it rebuilt and opposed those Jews who came poaching the faithful for the temple’s restoration. This is what has led to the divisions and strife of today. In truth what does it matter to a believer whether or not a temple is built in Jerusalem or any other place in the world? Mosques, churches, etc., are built everyday. Even animal sacrifice has no bearing on believers, just as the meat sold in markets through out Rome’s dominion was sacrificed to Zeus. Even Paul makes reference about not eating this meat if it should cause a brother of weaker faith to sin by not recognizing pagan practices as meaningless. For the believer Jewish observance becomes an external symbol of their faith expressing cultural identity rather than religious acts. This is not to deny that observance can also be religious because it expresses faith in Jesus, but only establishes that with out such faith such acts of observance become meaningless in and of themselves. For the Jewish believer it is not our observance that matters, but rather whether or not it contributes to our faith in Jesus. Therefore if you believe then your practice of observance should flow from your covenant with Jesus. That is the difference between simchah and gilah. Observance for the believer must flow from gilah so that those who see will themselves believe.
Must disagree. First, on the exegesis of Acts 15 and its implications for Torah obedience. I have written on this other places. Also see Tim Hegg, Bob Gorelik, Mark Nanos, Pamela Eisenbaum, Brad Young and others. The proposal that there is a distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Kingdom is untenable.
Second, please see Neusner, Boyarin and others on the various sects within Judaism during the Second Temple period. Your claim that Jerusalem persecuted hellenistic believers accounts for only one of the various sects, the one most often referred to in Scripture as the legalistic Jews. But clearly there were hundreds if not thousands of Jews who did not persecute Gentile believers, who accepted them and embraced them and fellowshipped with them. I doubt the claim that these had no interest in seeing the Temple rebuilt. Please see Becker and Reed, “The Ways that Never Parted” for the historical record.
Last, observance as a combination of heart and hand has never changed. It was true for Abraham and David. It is still true. “Jesus” isn’t the turning point here. If God requires justice and mercy, that’s what He requires. That I do what He asks from a heart of love for Him is what it means to obey. Yes, ritual alone is insufficient, but it was always insufficient (all the way back to Cain). Yeshua is not the difference here. What He accomplishes is not a shift in obedience. It is a radical change in relationship.
Now I have a question. Why do Christians make such a big deal out of eating and not eating? Does it REALLY MATTER if we restrict our consumption to what God specifically allows? I suspect that answer is the same one that Dorothy provided. We think we have the RIGHT to eat what we want. Really?
Much scripture does have BOTH an allegorical and a literal application, however, there IS precedent for this kind of imagery only containing allegory. Nebuchadnezzar’s statue dream and Pharoah’s corn eating corn dream – were ONLY symbolic.
Also, Ezekiel was asked to bake bread and cook it with human excrement — God allowed him to use cow manure instead. However, this shows that God will use ‘unclean’ imagery, in extreme circumstances, to make a point. No one took this as a general remission of kosher food laws, and it was not the start of an “Ezekiel Covenant” that we all live by now.
Dear Gabe,
I am presently working through Skip’s reply and the authors he cites. The process is time consuming – especially as it concerns halacha. I would respond to your post that Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and Pharaoh’s dream as being allegorical “ONLY” symbolic as incorrect. Both dreams were prophetic and used prophetic imagery. Symbolism is similar in that an image represents an underlying reality. Allegory is something quite different. To be allegory, for example, one cow would have to be named “Famine” and the other “Plenty” in Pharaoh’s dream. The idol would be named “Beast” or something similar. The lack of such naming precludes the consideration of allegory. In the case of Skip’s reply the treatment of halacha must be referenced to Matthew which addresses halachaic considerations. That requires a detailed breakdown of Jesus as the Moses-Prophet typology in which Matthew presents him and an indepth consideration of the distinctions between moral halachaic teaching and external halachaic practice meant to testify to what is binding for Adonai and what is biding only on Rabbinic decree. There is great disagreement regarding the issue: Jesus frequently heals on the Sabbath, his disciples break the sabbath to harvest corn for eating, etc., despite insistence that this was a violation of halacha and the rabbinic teachings. Pork and seafood fall under this category as external halachaic practice. Jesus routinely breaks these halachaic commands when they conflict with the underlying moral halacha they represent. When I say Skip is part right, I am referring to the need and practice of establishing a common background upon which to base the exegesis. This includes both halacha (the temple still stood at this time) as well as the Jewish believing community which would be described primarily by Matthew’s gospel and to a lessor extent by Mark. Why you have chosen to introduce dung in this argument is uncertain to me. My reference dealt with the adulteration and corruption of kabbalah by non-Jewish sources not Ezekial, which involves a prophetic action of typological dimensions. Luke is describing a Jewish conclave of believers for goyim so as to clarify certain halachaic teachings and practices which were creating disturbances. I hope this clarifies my position. The process of competing arguments is like burnishing gems to bring out their luster. Steel sharpens steel as the saying goes…
I just got this, strange, the date is marked as 2 years ago. Anyways, Thank-you Christopher. Skip has also drawn attention to my mis-use of the term ‘allegory’. I tended to use ‘allegory’, ‘symbolism’, and even ‘metaphor’ interchangeably. I will be more careful in the future.
Hey, I have NO IDEA why you would get a message from 2 years ago. It must be God doing the internet thing. 🙂
I must really really need to stop misusing the word ‘allegory’. 🙂
Peter does not leave us guessing about “allegory” in his vision. In verse 28 he clearly interprets the vision to Cornelius, saying: “…but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.” PERSON, not food. Of course Cornelius was a gentile God-fearer, as shown by his prayer and instructions from God, so was not unclean. Remember, this incident took place 10-15 years after the resurrection, and at this time Peter still “had never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” If Yeshua had eliminated the dietary laws, don’t you think Peter would have adopted this “freedom” by then?
Carl, that which was “unclean” was not food, therefore Peter would never have understood that command to mean eating what is not foot (just like you wouldn’t try to eat a house brick – it isn’t food).
Nor was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve thought otherwise and…well, here we are.
The dietary rules were never intended to apply to anyone other than the Israelites. The purpose of the food laws was to make the Israelites distinct from all other nations. The Law given to the Israelites had a number of important purposes. It was not as a simple ritual; rather, obedience to the Law expressed a strong internal faith in God and healthy fear of Him. Deut. 30 records the blessings God would grant Israel if they followed Him and the curses He would enact if they did not. These blessings and curses were an integral part of the covenant between God and Israel, so the Law was the basis of a conditional covenant. Also, the Law stood as a unique sign of the privilege granted to Israel, setting them apart from their pagan neighbors.
The whole world in Moses’ time was idolatrous, each nation believed in many deities. The forbidding of certain foods such as pork CLEARLY distinguished between what would later be termed “Jew” and “Gentile.”
After this purpose had ended, Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19). When Jesus died on the cross, He fulfilled the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:15).
Its not now about food, its about stumbling and offending. Rom. 14:1-23 teaches us that not everyone is mature enough in the faith to accept the fact that all foods are clean. As a result, if we are with someone who would be offended by our eating “unclean” food, we should give up our right to do so as to not offend the other person.
We have the right to eat whatever we want, (including pork at home) but we do not have the right to offend other people, even if they are wrong.
In the New(er) Covenant, the Bible is far more concerned with HOW MUCH much we eat than WHAT we eat. Physical appetites are an analogy of our ability to control ourselves. If we are unable to control our eating habits, we are probably also unable to control other habits such as those of the mind (lust, covetousness, unrighteous hatred/anger) and unable to keep our mouths from gossip or strife. We are not to let our appetites control us; rather, we are to control them (Deuteronomy 21:20; Proverbs 23:2; 2 Peter 1:5-7; 2 Timothy 3:1-9; 2 Corinthians 10:5).
We are not still to be divided over these things, tho we are and Jesus wishes we weren’t. Unity is absolutely essential because the church is the “body of Christ” (1 Corinthians 12:27), and a body cannot be in disunity or disharmony with itself. If disunity occurs, it ceases to be a body and becomes a disjointed group of individuals. Jesus’ plan for His church is people unified in the faith. How painful a body laying about in all seperate peices!!
All disunity in Believers stems from our acting selfishly and considering ourselves better than others. We often us food and othe things as a seperating tool. Pride is a big enemy. Self is a huge enemy. Its supposed to be dead anyway, wonder why it wants its own way so often?
Of course, I agree with you, the Pastor should not have served pork, (folks can get hottly offended over a dead pig laying on the table, wearing only sauce), but I’m sure Jesus accepted the invitation. If He never ate with sinners, He’s never show up in any of our homes.
Dear Dorothy,
You certainly know your Christian interpretation. Unfortunately, most of what you say is simply not biblical. It IS Christian, that I will grant you, but it does not align with either the culture or the language or the religious understanding of the ancient Near East, Paul or the “new” covenant.
I don’t want to get into a long discussion here. I have written extensively on these subjects, so I invite you to read what is already on the web site (by verse or topic). Others may want to comment as well. But just a few things must be said.
1. If we are grafted into Israel, as Paul suggests, then the dietary rules apply to us too, right? After all, it doesn’t say Israel is grafted into Christianity, does it?
2. The purpose of kashrut was to make God’s people distinctive. Has God’s motivation and purpose changed? If obedience expressed strong internal faith (a very Greek expression, by the way), then why isn’t obedience to the same instructions given to Israel valid for believers today? Did God change the rules or did we?
3. Is the world any less pagan today? Don’t we still need to demonstrate distinctiveness? How can we do that if we act exactly like ethical non-believers? Is it only a matter of what’s in your heart, as Greek philosophy would suggest?
4. When did the “purpose” of the Torah end, as you suggest? Yeshua clearly says that it will last until heaven and earth pass away. Has that happened in your world?
5. Your exegesis of “fulfilling” the Law is seriously flawed. Not only is it not supported by the text – check the real vocabulary and stop relying on English – it is in contradiction to the words of Paul, Peter and Yeshua. Where did you learn this?
6. Please see Mark Nanos on your exegesis of Romans 14 – which I have written about in other places. Once again, you speak without serious inquiry. This may be what you believe and what you have been taught, but it does not align with the culture or the text.
7. Notice that you claim “we have the right to eat.” That certainly sounds like YOU determine what is right and wrong. This is as Greek as it gets. Who is the authority in your life? You? or God? If He says, “Don’t eat pork, please,” do you have the “right” to eat whatever you want? By the way, this is the same logic that Eve used – and that was about what to eat too.
8. The idea that the New Covenant is about obesity is obscene. What culture did Paul write to, 21st Century America?
9. How do you purpose to achieve unity if you continue to insist that the Torah doesn’t apply? Would anyone who followed the God of Israel and the Torah be able to agree with you? This suggests that your idea of unity is “believe like I believe.” That’s called CONFORMITY, not unity.
10. If all disunity comes from acting selfishly and considering ourselves better than others, how would you assess your statements that we must GIVE UP Torah in order to come over to the RIGHT side, yours.
11. Finally, I challenge you to show me ONE verse where Yeshua acts in contradiction to Torah. And if He did, how could we call Him sinless? Is your goal to be like Him, or to be FREE to do what you think you are entitled to do?
When Jesus died on the cross, He fulfilled the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:15).
Dear sister,
Gods word stands forever. When my husband and I fulfilled/consummated our wedding vows, My obligation to continue to behave like the wife he knew before that day did not cease to continue. On the contrary it established our life together under certain predetermined guidelines. We didn’t stop doing all the things we “had to do” in order to make ourselves attractive to each other. I dare say if Esther had not continued to heed the instructions of her tutor Hegai after she was made queen she would not be the queen he thought he had married. In time of dire need she did not draw near to the throne room smelling like the smoked oysters she’d had for breakfast, dressed in a bathrobe, rollers, and pink fuzzy slippers. Even a sexy neglige was inappropriate.
She approached the throne having continued in her tutor’s instructions to eat her portion of the kings food, dress in the appropriate attire, and use the cosmetics that he prescribed prior to her being called to the king. Having no need for the tutor doesn’t mean that the instructions he/she gave are now invalid.
Excellent point. MOst of the problem begins with the English word “fulfill” which has multiple nuances. Most Christian theologians take it is the sense of “finish” and thus, the issue. But how WE understand it is not the issue. The issue is how Yeshua understood it, and He certainly was Torah-observant. If we are to be like Him, on what basis can we argue that we don’t need to be Torah-observant? Only on the basis that “being like Him” is an entirely cognitive event – and that is entirely Greek. Once again, not the way He would have understood His HEBREW statement.
Skip my husband has been away on business for three months. The life lessons were many.
The point I’d like to make here is that when he returned to me I spent the time he was on the road preparing our home and myself to make his home coming a delight. And not only that, I spent the time he was away keeping things that way like a faithful ezer is supposed to be doing. Why would I want to do anything differently? This is who we are.
Perhaps you could do us the service of preparing a word study someday on what it means to keep/shamar/שָׁמַר the treasures our Elohim gives us?
We remind our little flock often that if we simple (keep/שָׁמַר) His commandments and do what He tells us to do, on the days He has appointed for them to be done, we will automatically be in the right place at the right time doing the right things in our right minds when He comes.
The phrase “the woman” in scripture tends to be seen as a religious system. When we (keep/שָׁמַר) the wise woman’s words that bring life, it will (keep/שָׁמַר) us from the wicked woman’s words that lead down to death.
I know this is a stretch but since we all love a good allegory lets see how this shoe fits.
Proverbs 7 NLT
Pro 7:1 Follow my advice, my son; always treasure (keep/שָׁמַר) my commands.
Pro 7:2 Obey my commands and live! Guard (keep/שָׁמַר) my instructions as you guard your own eyes.
Pro 7:3 Tie them on your fingers as a reminder. Write them deep within your heart.
Pro 7:4 Love wisdom like a sister; make insight a beloved member of your family.
Pro 7:5 Let them protect (keep/שָׁמַר) you from an affair with an immoral woman, from listening to the flattery of a promiscuous woman.
Pro 7:6 While I was at the window of my house, looking through the curtain,
Pro 7:7 I saw some naive young men, and one in particular who lacked common sense.
Pro 7:8 He was crossing the street near the house of an immoral woman, strolling down the path by her house.
Pro 7:9 It was at twilight, in the evening, as deep darkness fell.
Pro 7:10 The woman approached him, seductively dressed and sly of heart.
Pro 7:11 She was the brash, rebellious type, never content to stay at home.
Pro 7:12 She is often in the streets and markets, soliciting at every corner.
Pro 7:13 She threw her arms around him and kissed him, and with a brazen look she said,
Pro 7:14 “I’ve just made my peace offerings and fulfilled my vows.
Pro 7:15 You’re the one I was looking for! I came out to find you, and here you are!
Pro 7:16 My bed is spread with beautiful blankets, with colored sheets of Egyptian linen.
Pro 7:17 I’ve perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
Pro 7:18 Come, let’s drink our fill of love until morning. Let’s enjoy each other’s caresses,
Pro 7:19 for my husband is not home. He’s away on a long trip.
Pro 7:20 He has taken a wallet full of money with him and won’t return until later this month.
Pro 7:21 So she seduced him with her pretty speech and enticed him with her flattery.
Pro 7:22 He followed her at once, like an ox going to the slaughter. He was like a stag caught in a trap,
Pro 7:23 awaiting the arrow that would pierce its heart. He was like a bird flying into a snare, little knowing it would cost him his life.
Pro 7:24 So listen to me, my sons, and pay attention to my words.
Pro 7:25 Don’t let your hearts stray away toward her. Don’t wander down her wayward path.
Pro 7:26 For she has been the ruin of many; many men have been her victims.
Pro 7:27 Her house is the road to the grave. Her bedroom is the den of death.
Thank-you for taking the time to re-engage on this topic. It is NOT a small thing, because it addresses a wide-spread attitude toward scripture. The issue is bigger than pork.
Another good example of a big issue which is seen as a small one – is ‘Lashon hara’ (the evil tongue). Modern Christian/Western culture has minimized the importance of words and the way we speak about each other. Once again, our moral compass has minimized something that is very important to God. Hence,… we see Paul’s list of ‘gossiping’ as a small sin, which is listed among big sins like ‘murder’. The reality is that the uncontrolled tongue is disgusting in God’s eyes… and Paul’s, and James’, and Jesus’ (Matthew 5:21-22).
May we not discern good and evil, but see it as God does.
Isa 66:15-18 ESV – “[15] “For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many. [17] “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD. [18] “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory,”
Dear Dorothy,
There are several issues involved in this which must be clarified: First, the Mosaic laws of kashkrut were not introduced until after the sin of Israel on the plains of Moab. Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin, in his book “To Be a Jew” suggests that the dietary laws are designed as a call to holiness. His opinion is very significant considering that today most rabbi consider kashkrut chukkim. The false prophet, Balaam of Peor, led Israel into its second apostacy causing Moses to write Deuteronomy and introduce the laws of observance. Remember that Israel previously sinned at Mount Sinai with the golden calf, causing them to remain there for a year while Moses wrote the book of Leviticus. Israel lacked the holiness back then to obey the 10 commandments written on the Tablets of the Law. 11 tribes were secularized and animal sacrifice was instituted. During Pessah in Egypt the father of every family acted as priest and sacrificed the lamb. After the golden calf incident only the Levites retained the priesthood and the office of sacrifice. It is worth noting that the animals that the Levites were required to sacrifice were the animal gods of Egypt – cattle, goats, and sheep (which includes the graven image of the calf Israel made to apostatize itself). The Levities were given the duty to restore Israel’s holiness: Leviticus has a section on the holines of the Levities and the holiness of Israel. Similarly, after the sin of Balaam of Peor on the plains of Moab, Moses writes a second law of observance and tells Israel they will exhaust the blessing and be left only with the curses because their hearts were evil (Det 27-30) that is delivered with out theophany by Moses and ratified between Mt Ebal and Gerizim (Joshua 7) by Joshua. The laws of observance were meant to protect Israel from the wickedness of the Cannatites. Israel lacked the holiness to convert the Cannatites and therefore Moses institutes observance to seperate weak and faithless Israel from the evil inhabitants. Kashkrut is intended to seperate the people of Israel from the strangers dwelling in the land and to prevent and diminish the temptation to assimulate with them and the goyim. Moses likewise foresees the end of Israel since it is impossible to remain seperate from the world for ever. Because the response of Judaism has been toward scrupulosity and further seperation as the generations progressed polarization of Israel’s holiness code reduces Israel’s holiness further and further until eventually even the Levitical priesthood is abolished with the destruction of the second temple – which destroyed the toledot of the Levites. As spoken by Moses every evil and every curse has been fulfilled against Israel and Judah until now the only thing that remains is for Adonai to write His laws upon the hearts of Israel which He will circumcize. The prohibition on eating pork came about because the pagan goyim surrounding Israel lived under a temple economy that was based on raising and using pigs. To prevent Israel from apostacizing yet again it was necessary to religiously prohibit consuming pigs. (This prevented Israel from participating in the support of pagan temples and communities financed by the pig industry and of supporting their idolatry.) The use of the term “circumcize the heart” used by Moses in Deuteronomy 30 is a reference to an end of the external observances which are intended to support Israel’s spiritual infancy and which are restored by the moral code they support. as Paul says, when I was a child I used the things of a child. And when I became a man I put the things of a child away, i.e. Adonai will circumcize the hearts of Israel. At some point Israel must set aside the restrictions that seperate it from the goyim so that Gen 22 can be fulfilled and both goyim and Israel are blessed. That this must happen still is testified by the prophets who speak of the restoration of Judah and Jacob which remains only partially fulfilled to this day. With the destruction of the temple and the end of the Levitical priesthood what remains is Todah with minchah and nesekh (bread and wine) offerred by the new priesthood of Melchizedek. Today most Orthodox Judaism follows Rambam’s opinion which views only the king as annointed. (Actually the highpriest, king, and prophets were annointed but mashiach today is only considered as a king.) Judaism has abandoned both prophets and any priesthood because it still clings to Mosaic observance which has no way to restore these offices. So Judaism today waits for Mashiach to return and restore the spiritual infancy of Israel – maturity being a very difficult and bitter path to walk. So in summary the moral code, which was originally instituted by Adonai with theophany remains the imperishable observance we must follow. If doing so also demands an external act of witness then we are likewise bound to do both for the same reason. If, however, the external act of observance does not constitute a moral imperitave then there is no benefit to our observance in practicisng them. Rather they have value only as a witness to the faith that is expressed because they only express man’s covenant form. The difference is that the moral law is intrinsically good in and of itself and its practice manifests the covenant likeness of Adonai with in man. Those who live the 10 commandments live the life of Adonai himself. Those who live only in external observance live the life of man, an empty observance who’s end is the dust. Notice than man needs to live in the image and likeness of Adonai. Therefore external observance has value only when it does not conflict with moral observance. Jesus routinely broke the Sabbath when it conflicted with moral obligation. From this it can be understood that kashkrut likewise falls under the same parameters. Acts 15 shows the use of Davidic authority to loose and to bind by mandating which external laws of observance must be followed and which can be dispensed. The prohibition on meat represents an example of where the moral laws of observance (i.e. idolatry) and the external laws of kashkrut were both deemed mandatory. Regarding the pork barbeque Skip mentions, there is no moral issue because business and commerce are seperate from pagan religious practice. Eating pork does not give aid or support to idolatry or immorality. Were that the case then it would have to be mandated as prohibited. Eventually if man fills the earth we will run out of kosher food to sustain our lives and be forced to eat non-kosher foods. This illustrates how the blessing of Adonai to be fruitful and fill the earth can become contrary to kosher kashrut. Whether we are observant Jews or just goyim the reward is the same. Being externally observant provides no benefit to our covenant relationship with Adonai in and of itself. If we choose to follow the Mosaic code then we are bound by it and its demands which can no longer be fulfilled without a priesthood or office of prophet. In effect those who bind themselves to the Mosaic covenant either receive only the curses or end up walking the path of Abraham by faith. The difference is that we who follow Jesus receive the power to do so from Adonai who writes him upon our hearts. Those who walk by the faith of Abraham do so by their own means leaving only a remnent where before was a multitude. They may yet arrive with us at our final destination but the path will be treacherous and difficult to walk so that it is only Adonai who keeps a remnent faithful to preserve his promises. So how does external observance benefit us? It gives us a national identity, culture, and shared values – all of which are good as long as they do not become an end in themselves. When does it harm us? When it becomes an end in itself. If we let the law of external observance replace Adonai it becomes a graven image – not so with the moral laws which are the shekaniah glory of Adonai Himself who enters man as His temple.
This is just a rough outline which requires much work to fill out.
Now you’ve left me with a lot of work in order to reply. 🙂
Christopher, thank you for all this, it gives me a repaired picture of the extreme, over-arching love of God than I have ever had, tho by faith I have surely seen it. You indeed live up to the meaning of your name.
Will you say this in other words, or another way:
“Those who walk by the faith of Abraham do so by their own means leaving only a remnent where before was a multitude. They may yet arrive with us at our final destination but the path will be treacherous and difficult to walk so that it is only Adonai who keeps a remnent faithful to preserve his promises.”
Dear Dorothy
This should explain”
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Num 21:9)
The serpents represent the angels of Satan. When we are bitten they have led us to sin. The bronze serpent represents Mashiach. Those who gaze upon him are healed of their sins so that they suffer a wound to the heel that is not fatal. Those who do not die like the bodies in the desert during Israel’s sojourn of 40 years. Underlying this is the notion of covenant reward and punishment:
The angels of Satan mediate our joy and pleasure of sinning. They entice us and tempt us to do evil. Therefore the angels of Adonai mediate joy and pleasure in doing good and living righteously. When Adonai chooses to punish us he allows us to prosper in our sin giving us over to the angels of Satan. When he shows us mercy he draws up our iniquity before our eyes by allowing us to be caught and punished before our sin bears fruit. In this way the bonds of covenant are not ruptured. Think of David fleeing from the soldiers of Saul.
What this means is that under the Mosaic covenant there is no longer any faculty for becoming holy. What you have is what you get until it is lost. For Israel to acheive holiness it must either embrace Mashiach or walk in the faith of Abraham hoping for Adonai to save them. Those who trust in their own efforts to observe the law are like those bitten by the snakes who perished.
Do you hear me applauding…..? This is the basis of what I believe, understand when I read, and have been taught. You add explanation, underline my faith, do not subtract, nor add confusion.
(do you have a blog?)
Dear Dorothy,
Sorry no blog. Who has time with these very indepth questions? Unless you consider Skip Moen a blog? I post here (and on JPOST using Disqus for talkbacks), but JPOST is all political analysis and opinion. Here is where the real meat is served! If not for Skip I would still be commenting to myself. I feel privledged to be in such company! Not many scholars who can spend time doing this. Everybody is too busy publishing their dissertations, teaching classes, and grading papers. This is more like Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark – digging for buried treasures in scripture, never knowing when you will find some precious jewel left buried in ancient exegesis that overs have overlooked. For me this is excitement. I only wish I could devote myself fully to the pursuit. However, we all must earn our living through what meager means we have available.
“Paul and the Jewish Law (Jewish Traditions in Early Christian Literature)” by P. J. Tomson has a good analysis of Paul’s writings in Corinthians discussing this topic. Basically, the relationship between the anthropomorphic Jews and their Gentile (Greek) bretheren was to be one of treating the other as having a “delicate” conscience, yet live together in Messiah. The Gentile was to remain a Gentile free from Kashrut, but not to cause his Jewish brother to stumble in his freedom. Likewise, the Jewish believer was continue in eating Kosher, but not impose Kashrut on his Gentile bretheren. I have found this to be true today with the Messianic Jewish believers I am around. They choose to always eat according to the dietary laws as a witness to their family memebers who do not accept Yeshua as Messiah, yet have no difficulty eating with Gentiles who do not eat Kosher. I heard a funny story about Arnold Fruchtenbaum speaking at a Gentile church, and afterwards sharing a meal with the congregation. With no sensativity to Arnold’s conscience in keeping Kosher, they served a ham, whereupon Arnold’s prayer was “Lord, if there is any way you can see fit to bless this pig, please do so”
Typo: I meant to say “anthropologic Jews”…too many Bible studies swirling around in my head.
Thats funny, Lol.
I understand. I really do. If we ate trucks, garbage trucks would be on the no-no list, and even without a list I wouldn’t want one because of the smell and the (fries), I mean flies, that come with it.
McDs wasn’t around to be listed then, but its on my list of no-nos as well because it will kill you, even if you ask a blessing over it. But if I had a chance to talk to a young woman about Christ, and she suggested McDs for lunch, I’d go and I’d eat. Because the main thing is the main thing, and may He ever be my Main Thing!
I am plain stuck on 1 Cor 2: 2. God Bless you.
I messed that sentence up fairly well good,
–We often us food and othe things as a seperating tool.–
is supposed to read: We often use food and other things as a separating tool.
Happy 4th to all who are celebrating!
Dear Dorothy,
You do a much better job than me at explaining this!
I’m sorry Dorothy. My response to your post ended up under Skips response to your post. Please go up from your Happy 4th posting.
I’m going now to our community 4th of July parade to celebrate the country that has allowed me to come to know and worship YHVH The Elohim of Israel, relatively unmolested my entire life.
Pam you said, “The phrase “the woman” in scripture tends to be seen as a religious system. When we (keep/שָׁמַר) the wise woman’s words that bring life, it will (keep/שָׁמַר) us from the wicked woman’s words that lead down to death.
I know this is a stretch but since we all love a good allegory lets see how this shoe fits.”
I think you are right on here Pam. I was presently surprised when I read a few years back a short article on the back page the BIOLAN (Biola University’s magazine) that presented the position that the whole book of proverbs was a chiastic structure about the Word of God, the wise woman being scripture.
Proverbs 7, 8, and 9 are the most obvious ones to fall into that category and the easiest to present as such.
I was a wicked wicked woman in the 60s. These Proverbs gave me the guts to stand up and change my ways. I know which house I want to be found in when He comes. I’m so grateful that He has made His desires for me clear. There’s no mystery about what pleases my Lord and what does not. My job and my pleasure is to be His delight. When He draws near to kiss me I don’t want bacon wrapped shrimp on my breath!
Luis, I’ll proceed further out on this fragile branch to say the wise woman is “the Bride of Christ!” submitted (voluntarily)-because of love, (not because of force or fear) -unto her own Husband- the LORD Jesus (who is the) Christ.
I appreciate the comments about my post. My thinking was as follows:
1. After the resurrection, Yeshua is with His disciples for 40 days and He speaks to them concerning the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3).
2. Whatever He taught the disciples did not convince Peter to break the dietary rules as he states in Acts 10:14 that he had not eaten anything unclean. So either we can assume that Yeshua did not teach the disciples to disregard the dietary rules or Yeshua did change the dietary rules and Peter misunderstood His teachings. Certainly the former seems more likely.
3. There is no Bibilcal evidence that Yeshua broke the dietary commandments.
4. Since I profess to be a disciple, i.e. a follower of Yeshua, I should do what He did. If He did not eat pork, then I should not. The church may teach otherwise, but I am a disciple of Yeshua and not a disciple of the church.
5. The point is that if Yeshua attended the pork BBQ, would He eat the pork? If He would not, how could I stand next to Him and do so and honestly claim to be following Him.
I have written several articles that seek to point out the difference between what Yeshua did and how He lived versus what the modern church has taught about Him. My desire is that they serve as a challenge to think about what we are doing and adjust our actions to be more like Yeshua. Have a happy July 4TH!
Dorothy,
Torah is to ALL who have been redeemed by YHWH, and that includes the dietary instructions too. The food laws are not an arrow of direction that only Israel needs to respond to, it is YHWH’s instructions that distinguish those who have been saved/delivered by Him.
Our desire to voluntarily submit and obey our Father’s instructions and teachings should not make us act selfishly by considering ourselves better than others who have been redeemed by the King.
Which is the spotlight and emphasis of Scripture, unity with others or obedience to YHWH?
Hi to all still hanging on —
What was the meaning of the Jerusalem Council, Acts 15, and why is it important to us? Or is it important to us?
How many back and forth comments right on this blog, nevermind all the others places the same thing is discussed– would be solved if us Believers in YHWH today would simply follow the decision of the Jerusalem Council?
Eating pork is not exactly important to me personally, (it gives me heartburn) Skip is the one who decides what we talk about most days, –tho some of us wander.
I’m going to leave the ridicule of the 4th of July church BBQ now, and go to something else:
“Put off” the works of the old self and “put on” the new self with its righteousness. Put off lying and put on truthfulness. Put off stealing and put on usefulness and work. Put off bitterness, rage and anger (and name calling) and put on kindness, compassion and forgiveness.
Will we have fireworks now?
Brian, could we then -go so far as to say- all of scripture is “Torah?”
~ The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple ~
~ The law of LORD YHWH is without blemish and converts the soul; the testimony of LORD YHWH is trustworthy and makes infants wise ~
~ As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby..~
Yeshua answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of G-d.'” (Matthew 4.4)
Speaking to the 4th, am I the only one who thinks that the only thing our soldiers are fighting for is America’s right to “be free” to live however WE choose?……and that our government has convinced us that they are fighting to protect our security? Btw, I am a former Marine and my first cousin died in Afghanistan in April last year. So, I’m just asking, not trying to offend.
Skip, I would love to hear your take. 🙂
Jimmy
Jimmy,
I am sad to say that I have come to believe that what our military is fighting for has nothing to do with freedom – ours or anyone else’s. It is about money and power. There are so many ways to help other nations that have nothing to do with killing. How can we possibly think that these actions will not come back on us? There is no way that we will be able to face The Creator and claim ignorance or innocence. It grieves me deeply.
I am watching a special on Fox about wounded warriors. Tears. These men have a love of life, an attitude of amazing courage, a commitment to personal responsibility that shames the rest of us. When I hear them, I think of the martyrs. I think of those who suffered and died for the Lord. Here are men who have given over and above for a country, a way of life. Would we do that for God’s way of life? Regardless of the political and governmental motivations, these men are not about politics or power. Their lives are testaments to DUTY. Would that we expressed the same obligation toward YHWH!
Jimmy, if you don’t mind if I answer, too, I will.
Your thoughts matter, the 4th of July matters, our flag and country matter. My husband and I are 20 year veterans. Our freedom matters, and you bet, there are those that will be right over here to take it if we give no resistance. I’d be writing this in German if it weren’t for the brave being on the offensive when needed. God, using the American soldier has brought liberation to many peoples. Did they keep it? Not always. Will we keep ours? Not if we forget God we won’t. Every generation has to fight for freedom all over again.
I’m sorry about the death of your cousin. A thousand times you will miss him/her, a thousand times you will cry, if love alone could have saved him, today he’d be by your side.
Please go here and listen: http://youtu.be/D02LsAp8xow
I cannot speak for the Messianic Believer. If a natural born Jew wants to keep kosher and be a follower of the LORD Jesus- wonderful. Let him keep kosher as a sign of obedience to YHVH. God wants every one of us to be healthy, happy and holy- and this includes the food we consume, our daily bread. “Eat that which is good and let your soul delight itself in fatness”- our Bible instructs.
But here is the bottom line folks- going to heaven, doing God’s will and loving your neighbor is not about what I eat or about what you eat. Shall we go into the meat offered unto idols thing? Deja vu all over again! Once again- it is NOT what goes into the mouth of man that defiles a man, no one goes to hell over eating a ham sandwich or even smoking a cigarette for that matter. Smoking only gets you there quicker! (wherever “there” may be!).
God’s dietary laws if examined thoroughly- and I’m sure they have been meticulously analyzed and scrutinized over the years- are sure to be found as one of the healthiest ways to eat. But again..- here’s the deal..- You can be as healthy as a horse and still end up in the lake of fire if you do not know Jesus Christ as your personal LORD and Savior. The kingdom of God is NOT meat and drink- but righteousness, peace and joy in the Ruach HaKodesh!
Our focus needs to be more upon the bread of Life than upon the bread (love that challah!) on our tables. Are we ready to take on “drink a little wine for your stomach’s sake?”. lol! – “oy!”
I’m afraid you missed the point here, Carl. First, obedience is not about “going to heaven.” It’s about honoring the King. Second, obedience is not optional. Citizens of the Kingdom OBEY the King. Finally, all citizens of the Kingdom are FULL citizens of the Kingdom. The constitution applies to everyone (obviously, not in OUR society, but certainly in God’s). That does not mean that EVERY citizen conforms to EVERY rule. After all, I cannot conform to the code of behavior for a Levite. I ma not a Levite. But all the code that does apply to me, I am expected to obey.
Imagine you wanted to be an Italian citizen. You submitted your request and it was honored. Then you say to the Italian authorities, “By the way, I will continue to vote in American, pay by taxes according to the American requirements and use my American passport when I travel. But I’m still Italian.” I don’t think so.
I have not “missed the boat”- I’m “in the boat!” I am today, right here, right now- where I sit, this very moment “in Christ!”
And if “any man” (hey!- that’s me!) be “in Christ”- he (or she) is a new creation.
The veil of the Temple was torn in two.. – Why?
No more exclusion but now an open invitation to “whosoever will”.. Does this include the Jew? (who are always God chosen ones!) Yes, it does. Does this include the heathens? (who by the way are not the Greeks!) Yes, it does. The proclaiming of the cross is to them who are perishing foolishness. Yes brother Brett- the crosses in our churches should make us a bit “nervous”- as soon as we (all) learn “WHO” it was that “we” pierced! ~ For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself” Reconciling who? The Jew? YES. Absolutely. Reconciling the Gentile also? Hallelujah!- yes. For God so loved the Jew that He gave.. For God so loved the Gentile that He gave.. – Friends, God so loved the WORLD. -and “whosoever will”- whosoever will, whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life “freely!”
I am now (today) a citizen of another country. I represent that country in the foreign land I am now living in. I am an ambassador for Christ- His representative to a people who desperately (although unknowingly) need Him.
I remain “open” to all that is taught here, but I have a Master-Teacher who is resident within. He is the Spirit of Truth and of error. I recognize worth or value when I see it. I have learned not to look on the things that are seen (surface value), but to look upon the things that are not seen for the things that are not seen are the things of worth or value. I have been bought with a price and I now belong to the Shepherd-King.
A “kosher” diet is a healthy diet- enabling all who will follow it to “live long and prosper.” But holiness is not a drudgery nor a duty. Holiness is a delight. We may now say with our Savior, “I delight to do your will, my Father.”
My Father. May I call the God who now is- “Father?” Yeshua has instructed- “when you pray say “Father.” He calls me “son” and He knows my name, for I have been bought with a price. Is this religion? Or is this “relationship?”
~ I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one Shepherd ~ (John 10.16)
“I am an ambassador for Christ- His representative to a people who desperately (although unknowingly) need Him.”
Carl have you ever been to an embassy? When you step inside an embassy everything you touch, taste, smell, see, and hear is just as if you have stepped through a porthole into the country of that embassy. This is how I see the tabernacle in the wilderness. When the priests entered in they stepped into the embassy that was the exact replica of the thing Moses saw on the mountain. They had to purify themselves to be able to enter in safely. They ate, dressed and washed, etc…………. in a certain way before they dared to enter in.
1Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Hbr 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge, [But] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 7:1 Follow my advice, my son; always treasure (keep/שָׁמַר) my commands.
Pro 7:2 Obey my commands and live! Guard (keep/שָׁמַר) my instructions as you guard your own eyes.
Pro 7:3 Tie them on your fingers as a reminder. Write them deep within your heart.
Pro 7:4 Love wisdom like a sister; make insight a beloved member of your family.
Pro 7:5 Let them protect (keep/שָׁמַר) you from an affair with an immoral woman, from listening to the flattery of a promiscuous woman. {{{{Se my post above on this.}}}}
Pro 15:33 The fear of the LORD [is] the instruction of wisdom, And before honor [is] humility.
Pro 19:23 The fear of the LORD [leads] to life, And [he who has it] will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil.
Pro 24:21 My son, fear the LORD and the king; Do not associate with those given to change;
ETC….ETC…..ETC……
What is it that we don’t get about this???
WELL I DON’T KNOW – ISN’T THAT WHAT DUAL CITIZENSHIP GIVES YOU/US…
“Imagine you wanted to be an Italian citizen. You submitted your request and it was honored. Then you say to the Italian authorities, “By the way, I will continue to vote in American, pay by taxes according to the American requirements and use my American passport when I travel. But I’m still Italian.” I don’t think so.”
SOMETIMES I WONDER JUST LIKE YOU DO… ♥
I have to wonder if the crosses in our churches might also make Yeshua a bit nervous 😉
Sometimes I wonder if all that you are teaching us is just going in one hear, out the other. There is always TURKEY bacon! Ever wonder why Christians are dying so young? Follow God’s instructions, that’s why they are there! Jesus followed them, why not us?
Yeah, sometimes I want to throw up my hands and give it up.
Oh, please, Skip, don’t give up! You are the first to teach, instruct, encourage and challenge me every morning – even before I settle down for the prayers. I listen to your audio teachings as I go about mindless work like gardening, cooking and housekeeping. I read your books when I have some sit-down time. I feast at God’s Table because of you.
Skip, When we are up to our neck in alligators it is sometimes necessary to remind ourselves that our initial objective was to drain the swamp! Moses was often frustrated with the stiff necked, rebellious hearers he was given charge to lead out of Mitzraim and of course, Yeshua was oft frustrated at his talmidims seemingly lack of progress. You are making a huge difference in many people’s lives around the world, as evidenced by the testimonies of the changed lives witnessed over time on your blog. I, myself, have come into sooooo much life and truth through your site (mainly your teaching, but also your readers comments at times), but it seems that only as I am willing to discard the opposing theological garbage that is engrained in my mind am I really able to receive and obey the new revelation (sometimes that is a real battle, but it is worth it in the end). And that is where the rub is. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Is he already full or just not thirsty, is he sick, or preoccupied or does he not drink because finds the water “different” – too hot or cold? Who knows? That all of us who come to your site initially are full of own ideas, opinions, theological nonsense is to be expected and that some will stay in the darkness of our minds for a period of time-even years may be understood; after all only Yah can open our hearts to the spirit of your words and His words. Oh but the reward you must get when one of us little ones cast off their Greek blinders and walk in Torah! Hopefully you get something, if not much joy, out of that knowledge. Plus, I’m sure your reward will be great in the Olam ha ba per Matthew 5:19 …”but whosoever obeys and teaches others will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven”. So please hang in there and put off any thoughts of throwing up your hands and giving up. Michael
Yeah, I’m not giving up. Want to know why? Because this is what God wants me to do – and I do it for me and for Him. The rest of you are just along for the ride. But I am sure glad you are on the bus with me. 🙂
Please, don’t give up! We ‘re not here for the ride, but to see our lives changed! And this really happens. I’ve not been eating pork for more than a year now or any other non-food animals because you showed me this is the will of God! I’m discovering alternatives every day. My family considers me a luna, but I don’t care! I’m doing the will of God and that’s the only thing that counts. So don’t give up, please. God uses you. And – although it sounds funny from a guy – I love you!
Don’t!!!!!!
This journey is the hardest thing I have ever attempted to accomplish. I have gotten past the food issue. Actually, that one was the easiest. The problem is that the rest of household refuses, and that makes it tough. The more I try to teach, the “crazier” they say I become. But I press on; yes, I want to throw in the towel at times. Skip, I’ve told you before (jokingly, of course) that there are times I wish we had never crossed paths, but the Truth is the Truth. The Light has been turned on because YHWH has used you to teach me. For that, I am grateful. 🙂
Jimmy
Don’t give up Skip. Personally, I thought the invitation was a real hoot.
Yeshua lived and died an observant Jew. The thought of saying that he would be attending a pig roast is funny and indicative of Christianity.
People like their pork. Your teaching and the teaching of Elchanan Avraham got through to me. I cut out pork and shell fish from my diet. And, as someone above has observed there are turkey products. I don’t like turkey bacon but Jimmy Dean makes a great turkey sausage link. Tasty.
When you step back and look at shrimp and lobster you realize that they are cockroaches who happen to get their oxygen from water. Personally, I don’t want to eat an ocean going cockroach.
Someday the church will make the connection between throwing the standard of Torah with synchronization of the church to the culture. Just last week I saw a news piece stating that young believers are going to leave the church if the church doesn’t lighten up on homosexuality.
We are choking on our “freedom” and it is making the church ever weaker and less relevant and lacking in power to influence the culture.
HEY, SAME GOES FOR SHRIMP, LOBSTER, COCKROACHES…
OKAY – DID GOD NOT MAKE CERTAIN ANIMALS TO BE SCAVENGERS – TO BE CLEANERS OF SORT. THE MEDICAL FIELD USES MAGGOTS TO CLEAN ROTTING FLESH OFF OF PATIENTS [WE DON’T EAT THEM/MAGGOTS] BUT THEY ARE MADE FOR A PURPOSE. SOMETIMES LIKE ABOVE YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE PIGS IN THEMSELVES ARE NASTY DIRTY CREATURES WHEN IN ALL ACTUALITY GOD MADE THEM FOR A PURPOSE – IT IS NOT THE PIGS FAULT HE WAS MADE TO CLEAN & INGEST WHAT HE IS CLEANING – IT’S NOT ABOUT HIM BEING A NASTY DIRTY ANIMAL AS PORTRAYED BUT ABOUT US NOT EATING WHAT HE HAS CLEANED – GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT SEEM TO BE GOOD CLEANERS TOO BUT WE GET TO PARTAKE OF THEIR BLOOD & THEIR BREAD – JUST SAYING DON’T BLAME THE PIG FOR THEIR JOB GIVEN THEM… OR THE SHRIMP, LOBSTER, COCKROACH… IT IS ABOUT OUR OBEDIENCE NOT THE ANIMALS CLEANNESS – THE UNCLEAN ANIMALS WERE MADE FOR A PURPOSE & THE HUMAN BEING WAS MADE FOR A PURPOSE TO LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THY HEART & WITH ALL THY SOUL & WITH ALL OUR STRENGTH & WITH ALL OUR MIND – AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF…
He answered: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'”
http://bible.cc/luke/10-27.htm
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[h] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”[i]
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed,[j] he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
Mary and Martha Worship and Serve
38 Now it happened as they went that He entered a certain village; and a certain woman named Martha welcomed Him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at Jesus’[k] feet and heard His word. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving, and she approached Him and said, “Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Therefore tell her to help me.”
41 And Jesus[l] answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. 42 But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.”
G-d knows what He is talking about. Why do we always have to compromise or find excuses to get out of it? Just like rebellious children, we think our Father knows nothing…if you really knew how nasty pigs are…A guy that worked with the USDA was talking with my son about his job. They picked up a trailer full of pigs to transfer over 300 miles to the state university for study. My son said,”I bet you had to take all day to clean that trailer out.” the guy answered, “No, it was perfectly clean by time we arrived.” Think about it.
As you have so aptly written to us in the past Robin, we are what we eat. My experience is that you also smell like what you eat! We are commanded to eat only clean animals Which have a certain aroma. When a clean animal is sacrificed and burned on the alter, it is a smoothing/delightful aroma to Him. When we draw near to Him in worship how do we smell to Him? If we think this isn’t important think about this?
Gen 27:26 Then his father Isaac said to him, “Come near now and kiss me, my son.”
Gen 27:27 And he came near and kissed him; and he smelled the smell of his clothing, and blessed him and said: “Surely, the smell of my son [Is] like the smell of a field Which the LORD has blessed.
Gen 27:28 Therefore may God give you Of the dew of heaven, Of the fatness of the earth, And plenty of grain and wine.
Gen 27:29 Let peoples serve you, And nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, And let your mother’s sons bow down to you. Cursed [be] everyone who curses you, And blessed [be] those who bless you!”
The blessing was poured out at last as Issac smelled his son. The on the first day Adam was created he was told to eat everything in the garden except that which brings certain (but not immediate) death. On the last day of His coming who will receive blessing and who will not? We keep forgetting we set ourselves apart FOR HIM! The nations will see and wonder but we purify ourselves FOR HIM TO BE A DELIGHT TO HIM.
1Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
That’s what my posts above are all about. Our job is to be HIS delight!
Yes, what happens when we fast? We “burn” fat!
OKAY – DID GOD NOT MAKE CERTAIN ANIMALS TO BE SCAVENGERS – TO BE CLEANERS OF SORT. THE MEDICAL FIELD USES MAGGOTS TO CLEAN ROTTING FLESH OFF OF PATIENTS [WE DON’T EAT THEM/MAGGOTS] BUT THEY ARE MADE FOR A PURPOSE. SOMETIMES LIKE ABOVE YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE PIGS IN THEMSELVES ARE NASTY DIRTY CREATURES WHEN IN ALL ACTUALITY GOD MADE THEM FOR A PURPOSE – IT IS NOT THE PIGS FAULT HE WAS MADE TO CLEAN & INGEST WHAT HE IS CLEANING – IT’S NOT ABOUT HIM BEING A NASTY DIRTY ANIMAL AS PORTRAYED BUT ABOUT US NOT EATING WHAT HE HAS CLEANED – GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT SEEM TO BE GOOD CLEANERS TOO BUT WE GET TO PARTAKE OF THEIR BLOOD & THEIR BREAD – JUST SAYING DON’T BLAME THE PIG FOR THEIR JOB GIVEN THEM…
What about Acts 10 10-15???
All doubt has been removed, -diet does make a difference!
Listen again to His words from His Book-
~Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to Me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare ~ (Isaiah 55.2)
Yes. Diet does make a difference.
~ As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby ~ (1 Peter 2.2)
~ When I discovered your words, I devoured them. They are my joy and my heart’s delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God of Heaven’s Armies ~ (Jeremiah 15.16)
~ Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On Him God the Father has placed His seal of approval. ~ (John 6.27)
~ Yeshua said to them, “I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Bread of Life; whoever comes to Me shall not hunger, and whoever trusts in Me shall never thirst ~ (John 6.35)
http://www.aish.com/j/mm/58464387.html
Robin this is a hoot! :))
Skip & Community,
I am a recent member to “At God’s Table” and would like to share a few thoughts on the pro’s of obedience.
~ Is this really important? I ask, “Is being holy or set apart important?~
I think so. Since my husband and I began observing Torah, our entire life has changed. As we read the Word, (in it’s context not the christian context) revelation of the law is plain. We have a heartfelt desire to repent from our sins and simply obeying the Law is our delight.
It is my understanding that YHVH made, created, and formed all that is and isn’t. He owns it all. Since He put it altogether, doesn’t it make sense that the boundaries He set for our protection and delight would be for our entire well-being?
How difficult is it to stop at a red light? Do we? And if so why?. Could it be that the law of this land put this in place for our protection? It just seems to make sense that Torah, the same yesterday, today, to forever, is for our protection and prosperity.
Thanks Skip for this community.
p.s. I have found some great receipes for chicken and turkey sauage, it’s all in the spices. (see Joy of Cooking)
Could you share some? I am just learning to cook, and am on a college student’s budget.
This is the blog that never ends!!!
Hey ladies,
I don’t know where anyone lives of course, but I shop at Trader Joe’s for most of my ingredients. It’s cheap and non GMO.
Another hit about any sausage is look at what the casings are made of. This is a constant process of discovery. this is one of several lists that help with clean cooking. And I don’t follow any of these things off a cliff either. As a very wise US President once said “Trust, but verify”
Sorry here’s the list
http://www.theisraelofgodrc.com/CUPL.html
Such gnashing of teeth under this title: “Some Humor. . . ” ! (humor may not be your ‘thang’)
“……not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law UNTIL everything is accomplished.” (Matt. 5:17-18).
If we are under the law today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ—and thus remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled ALL of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus’ death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law.
Mark 12: 28-31 “And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, wthe Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
I am glad to have a Bible in English, people have died to put it in my hands. Its no slight thing, and if they had not, then I wouldn’t have one I’m able to read. GOD IS GOD and able to watch over His Word. He is not sitting idly by while millions go to hell reading a corrupt version that perverts knowledge of the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is a success at everything He does and has failed at nothing. Nothing at all. Now ain’t that Good News. Sweet music of heaven, the Gospel is Good News!
Please note that Matthew 5:17-18 is a Greek translation of what Yeshua spoke in Hebrew and in Hebrew the word we translate “fulfilled” does NOT mean finished or completed. It means “to be fully revealed, to be completely displayed so as to understand properly.” In other words, Yeshua came to reveal what the “Law” fully means, not to finish it so that it no longer applies. You must recognize that your argument that the Law is finished contradicts what Yeshua says, and what Paul says some 20 years later, and what James says at the Jerusalem council. You must set aside the replacement theology that you learned in church and ask yourself what the text actually says, consistently, throughout the entire New Testament.
But enough on this. I have written about it in so many places and covered so many verse, including the ones you cite.
“……not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law UNTIL everything is accomplished.” (Matt. 5:17-18).
Why did you leave out the first part of that sentence?
Matt. 5:18 I tell you the truth, “”UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR””, not the smallest letter “…….not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Where did you get the idea that the sacrificial system was done away with at Jesus death? Paul and others took vows 25+ years later.
Act 18:18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchrea because of a vow he had taken That’s why he was hurrying to get to Jerusalem for Pentecost. Acts 20:16 Then James instructs him to prove he keeps the law by paying for 4 other believers expenses to complete the same vows and be purified with them. This was a Nazirite vow that required certain very costly sacrifices to complete. Read Acts 21:17-25 One of the astounding things about this account is that Paul was never able to complete his vow because of the arrest. He died a Nazirite!
For crying out loud, Pam, do I get a full 40 lashes from your tongue? I left off the first part only after giving the book and vs, useless to try to hide anything after that, wouldn’t you agree? I figured you could go read it if you wanted to. Which you did, right?
Will all knowledge perhaps die with you like Job’s friends? Whether you can hardly believe it or not, Jesus died for me, too and my name is in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Thank You, Jesus.
My version says: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18). (and that may be why I used it.)
There was no need for the sacrifices after Jesus’ sacrifice. No more lambs and doves need die.
It is finished.
I saw your other comments. I am as clean as you are. I eat mostly fruits, vegetables and nuts out of preference for them, not because of law. My husband does eats pork, if and when he wants it, and he smells wonderful.
Esther was wise to do as her uncle said, but make no mistake, she was accepted because the scepter was held out to her.
Jesus is the Scepter in the hand of God or we would die trying to approach Him. “I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, A scepter shall rise from Israel,….” Numbers 24: 17
I love you sister.
Before I began to understand these things I was a died in the wool, anything is fair game for food, carnivore. I still am a full on carnivore just a more careful one now. Not for any other reason but that He says so.
I don’t have tattoos for the same reason. I wanted to get one when Cher got her first one but I couldn’t afford a pretty one and didn’t want an ugly one. But when I could afford it I knew God says don’t so I didn’t.
Now it just looks like graffiti to me so I don’t want one. Why should I (like a dog marking it’s territory) put my mark on the body He crafted in a particular way and then loaned to me? It’s impossible to understand these things until we are participating in them. It’s not about our health, or looks. And it’s not about heaven and hell.
It’s all about humbly submitting to the desires of His heart by listening to His voice and walking in His word.
Shalom Shalom
Peace accepted, sister, and freely extended back to you.
Scorched in my soul, is that as I am freed from the ceremonial law, I must walk the more closely with God in Gospel obedience. I will perhaps someday (who knows?) bite a pig, but would not dare disobey such verses as Col. 3: 15 which says: “Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.”
Yes, tattoos seem to me even worse than graffiti. Graffiti can at least be painted over! lol.
I don’t judge others on that, tho. I know some people who really regret having got one when younger, can’t afford to have it removed, and so on. We never know about a person’s life and the whys, we are called to have compassion and let God be the Judge, He will judge righteously.
Dorothy,
You continue, in spite of linguistic, cultural and historical evidence to the contrary, to assert that the word “finished” means “put an end to, no longer valid.” Apparently you refuse to consider the meaning of the word in the original language and accept the English translation with its nuances as if it were spoken by Yeshua. This approach provides religious certainty but it only proves that you have determined to believe what you want to believe regardless of the facts. There is little more to say. Your mind is made up. It just isn’t in alignment with any attempt to truly understand the text.
As I have said many, many times: the tradition is more powerful than the text.
Be blessed.
Dorothy, you wrote, “Scorched in my soul, is that as I am freed from the ceremonial law, I must walk the more closely with God in Gospel obedience.”
Ceremonial Law? Where in scripture do we find any divisions between aspects of the Torah? From where do you get this concept of “ceremonial law”?
Gospel obedience? What about this then?
My points were twofold:
1. Yeshua was a Torah observant Jew; and
2. The church, which is supposed to be the body of Christ, in some areas isn’t Torah observant.
As I’m sure you know, sir, The Church is not just ‘supposed’ to be the body of Christ, but IS the body of Christ.
“. . . . Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.” Eph. 5: 25-27
I don’t like all the church bashing that takes place everyday on this site, and I ‘bet ya’ He don’t like it either seeing its His bride.
Not everything and everyone who calls themselves the church, really is the church. But people lump all the idiot ones, false and true, into one heap. Makes no sense to me at all to do that.
I would like to understand something better, if anyone could help, I would greatly appreciate it. I beg you to bear with me, I really need guidance, and I wasn’t sure where to post this.
1) What is the difference between being saved by faith as opposed to works of law if the Hebrew word for faith inherently includes obeying His commandments, yet works of law also mean obeying His commandments?
2) In learning to obey His commandments, I am at a loss because there is no one to show me the right way. I can’t tell if the rabbis are right in the Talmud, or if they are wrong. How can I obey Him if there is no definitive explanation of how to obey? Take the law about mixing clothing for example. Rabbis say it is only mixes of linen and wool, while others say it is any mix. In the latter, I am finding it very difficult to find clothing that is 100% one material (trust me when I say I have searched). I thought about learning to make my own clothes, which would by itself take a long time to learn, and I have no one to teach me that either, but I feel like its all just so much, especially when I don’t really even know if it’s the right way. This is just one commandment, there are confusions on a lot of them. He wants me to bear fruit, but I feel like He has just given me hundreds of commandments to figure out how to obey on my own, and I don’t know how.
Please help!
Dear Amber,
Your questions are all answered in detail on the web site. Just search the site for the relevant topics or verses. But here’s the summary.
1. No one is saved by WORKS, not Abraham, not David, not Paul and not us. And every Jew knew this, otherwise there would be no need for sacrifices.
2. Grace is the same for those Old Testament believers as it is for me and you. See my discussion of “hen” vs. “hesed.” Grace is God’s favor poured out by God because He wants to pour it out. Once ACCEPTED, hesed enters the picture. Hesed is my faithful loyalty to God in response to His grace (again, see the many articles on this).
3. I obey because I choose to obey because it is good for me and it shows my love for Him. I DO NOT obey in order to by saved.
4. Only some of the 613 Torah commandments apply to you. YOu can find the complete list on Judaism 101, but the bottom line is that you decide how the ones that apply will apply. You can consult a rabbi or a group of believers or you can search Scripture yourself but in the end, you decide how you are doing to apply the commandment because it will be your gift to the Master. There are many schools of interpretation of the less obvious ones. Pick who you want to follow and follow.
5. Let God correct you if He wants to.
I really appreciate you taking time to rely and help me, I have been trying so hard to understand this for a long time.
This is what I understand so far: So it is the motive for the obedience. I should obey because I am making the agreement to do so when I accept His salvation/”hen”. Salvation is already taken care of by time I start obeying, and so the works at this point are “hesed”/loyalty, carrying out what I claimed I would do. Legalism as Paul meant is when you obey His commandments out of fear of condemnation, and not as a result of your bond with Him (loving Him is the biggest one anyway, so you can’t obey the mitzvot without having a love-bond with Him anyway). Do I have it right?
What happens when I am afraid I am not doing enough to show I really mean it? And then I start doing it out of fear…How do I know when I am learning to do enough?
They would tell me I am free for the Torah. But why would you want to be? The torah tells you the secrets of life!
Hey if these people have a right to learn Klingon, buy Harry Potter wands, learn the spells, spend money on Lord of the Rings costumes, and everything else, I have a right to show the same devotion to God and learn Hebrew, buy tztitzit and head coverings, and learn the mitzvot.
You are heading in the right direction. Just stop worrying about it and keep following what you know.
Amber His yoke is easy and His burden is light, He didn’t call you out of Egypt to put you on His Holy treadmill for eternity or even a little while.
My husband and I didn’t have anyone to tell us how to do any of these things for a long time either. We had been doing them for quite awhile before we learned anything rabbinic. Frankly we were very uneasy about leaving the churches man made traditions only to jump into the rabbinic ones which seemed to us to be just as idolatrous AND very foreign.
So we made up or own traditions as we read our Torah portion schedule (which is a wonderful rabbinic tradition).
Year after year after year for the last 20+ years He has walked and talked with us and guided us gently into all of the things we do thus far, as we were able to bare them.
He started with Sabbath. We searched out (to the best of our ability) His commandments concerning what Keeping the Sabbath looked like according to Him. Rest on the 7th day! The 7th day is the 7th day but what does He mean by rest? It means stop doing what you normally do every day to sustain yourself! Let Him sustain you. So what do I do? I prepare our food for two days and put away my daily choirs by sundown. I wasn’t aware for years that sundown was the goal I was still on Roman time morning to morning. I struggle every week to accomplish this goal even today. Whatever I can’t finish literally and frantically gets thrown in the closet so I’m not distracted by it and breaking my Shabbat Shalom.
My highly organized Messianic girlfriends are either turning in their graves right now or cringing in horror at this instruction. My less legalistic girlfriends are are laughing hysterically at my confession knowing me well enough to know that where the tough is clean there is no ox but much good comes from the presence of an ox. I’m an ox among the butterflies in our group. They love me and cheer me on. Make sure you end up with those kind of friends.
The point is He will guide you as He sees fit. Study and trust His word especially on the 7th day. And you have 100s of people to help you now. You’re on this blog. But don’t just take our advice. We’re all dumb sheep! Some of us are just older more educated dumb sheep! The smartest dumb ones are the ones who will confess that the more they learn the dumber they feel! Their education serves to show them more and more as they are able to bare it, how dumb they really are!
When someone tells you HOW to do something, inquire in study and prayer to see if He really wants you to do that before you incorporate it into your life. Don’t let go of something He has written down for our instruction for example, stay in your place and rest on the seventh day, do no work and don’t create work for others, don’t light a fire, don’t purchase anything but don’t jeopardize the life of any creature that you are stewarding for Him to sustain their life. These are all things that define what rest is. How you design your life around that is up to you. It is easier to do if you go about it habitually. We call those habits “traditions” Even they won’t prevent you from struggling with these things.
If you incorporate someone’s good tradition and find that He’s urging you to let it go, open your hand and let it go. He’s not pouring slip into the same mold millions of times. He’s the potter and He is shaping a lump of clay into what He wants you to look like. He hand crafts each one of us. My delicious challah is nothing like my friends delicious challah. She gave me my first recipe 18 years ago. I eventually chucked it when I found one I liked better and then changed it completely into what it is today. But her challah and my challah are both still delicious challah!
Shalom
I understand what you are saying, but when He said to do what they (the Pharisees) told them in Matthew 23:2-3, was He referring to obeying the Oral Torah too? I know this flies in the face of other Scriptures criticizing the traditions and teachings of the Pharisees, and would be hard to follow since the Oral Torah/Talmud itself has little consensus (rather contains a bunch of arguments for different sides), but what else could He have meant?
I have heard of a Hebrew version of Matthew that says to obey Moses, not the Pharisees, but this is one text in the face of all the others. What do you think?
Read Nehemia Gordon’s book, The Greek Jesus vs. the Hebrew Yeshua
Would you mind sharing your recipe? I am trying to learn how to cook Jewish food, and have been using too much vinegar.
Here’s your second witness to Skips suggestion below. Read Nehemia Gordon’s book, The Greek Jesus vs. the Hebrew Yeshua. To will be picking your jaw up off the floor!
What do you guys think about this:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.torahresource.com%2FEnglishArticles%2FMatt23.3Gordon.pdf&ei=ltj6T9-0G6jO2gXWp4HqBg&usg=AFQjCNHg04vwHhAoE14tkOR5B5P4LyxJ1A
It is a response to Nehemiah Gordon’s take on Matthew 23:3
Please don’t take that response in a bad way, I am just trying to consider everything, and am really thankful you guys are helping and talking to me. Most Christians I try to talk to just aren’t interested.
Dear Amber,
In simple terms, “works of the law” as used by Paul refers to the works of righteousness performed under the Mosaic covenant which is arbitraily set at 613 commands. A detailed exegetical work that goes into great depth of both textual and historical analysis on works of the law can be found at:
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj16j.pdf
It will probably be of little use to you although I mention it because I posted a rough draft for Skip above in a response to Dorothy and it references certain portions of my draft. An easier read would be Nehemia Gordon’s book who interestingly argues against Jesus upholding or following the Oral Torah:
See http://www.hilkiahpress.com/was_yeshua_a_pharisee.html for an excerpt.
In general: obeying the law of Moses from a legalistic approach of balancing mitzvah against sin is embracing the wickedness of the Pharisees Jesus condemns. One must repent and be baptised into Christ through water and the Holy Spirit and then seek him out. For Jews and goyim that means finding him in the Torah. I follow the quote from the Catholic Saint Jerome – “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ”. For believers to follow the law of Moses requires an understanding of the differences between justification (being in the covenant), sanctification (holiness vs kiddush), and salvation (being delivered from the power of death: i.e. passed over as in Pessah- not recognized by Judaism). The law of Moses has a moral code and an external observance that supplements it. Judaism has lost the notion of salvation in Gen 3:15 (the motivation for apostacizing twice and failing to accept the Torah it was given) and fails to seek the deliverance from death promised by Adonai – the blessing of Abraham. The blessing of Abraham is a double blessing of physical and spiritual natures – a physical blessing because man is made in Adonai’s image and a spiritual blessing because man is made in Adonai’s likeness. Adonai is the lord of the living not the dead, therefore those who live in His likeness never die and death has no power over them. Because fulfilling the laws of observance degenerated into strictly receiving material blessing and prosperity in the land rather than life with Adonai Judaism failed to accept Mashiach and the temple with the levitical priesthood was destroyed. While there were different sects with in Judaism at the time of Jesus, the Pharisees were the largest (and the dominant sect) holding the teaching authority of Moses.
As someone who has taken up a perspective, only to be wrong, I first have to say I acknowledge I am very much a beginning learner, so please do not take my response in any wrong way. My only desire is to figure out the truth so that I can know what God wants and do it.
I have not really looked into the “New Perspective.” It is very interesting, and I think I should look into it more.
One thing that is making me hesistant is the preceding verse:
Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
The implication is that it is dealing with those who have failed in keeping the law (sinners), otherwise they would not be silenced in guilt. In fact the preceding verse before it is talking about everyone, both Jew and non-Jew, being guilty as sinners. So it seems (to my imperfect and still learning mind) that it is saying 1) noone has kept the law perfectly, all have sinned 2) therefore noone is justified by keeping the law/works of law.
So, if this is true: You cannot rely on works of law/keeping the law because you have already broken it. Salvation will not come from keeping a law you have already broken.
The next Scripture goes on to say that God has provided a way to be saved apart from the law (since we could not be saved by keeping the law, as we have all already broken it).
I wonder it makes sense to say that if we had never sinned, He would not have needed to die. If we had never broken the law and sinned, we would not need saving, and in effect, keeping the law, also known as not sinning, would have been all we would have needed.
…or was the it ‘relationship’ that we needed, need now, and forever? The relationship of mankind in the garden walking and taking with God in harmony with nothing betwixt. (not even a covering). The ultimate “returning”.
I think the prefect relationship was the original intent and is the goal. But I am not so sure we are there yet. What do you think of this:
There was a story I heard one time:
In two rooms were two groups of children. The first group was very bad. They screamed at yelled at the adults, and were mean and spiteful to eachother, cursing, and stealing and lying. They even destroyed the furniture! So the adults decided they needed to give them some rules. These rules were very basic, including things like not stealing from eachother, and listening to the adults.
The second group was the exact opposite. They were very respectful to the adults in it. They did as they were asked, were kind to one another, and acted, as the adults said, like angels. The adults didn’t need to give them the rules, because the children were already following them.
I think the intention is for us to go back to a time when the relationship between us and God was like that of the second group and the adults. When He says that the rules wont go away until heaven and earth pass away, I wonder if He is saying that they will go away at THAT time period: we wont need the rules because we wont be breaking them. New heaven and new earth with sin and death destroyed. It really will just be a relationship. My current understanding is that the rules are still needed because we still sin. I don’t think the perfect relationship will come about until sin and death are finally finished. Paul did seem to say the rules were for those not following them. Or maybe I am wrong?
And may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you dear sister. We all need that grace.
My favorite subject of study these days is the sacrificial system which continued for 40 years after the death of Yeshua. The Jerusalem “Church” continued to participate in that system until the Temple was destroyed. (Read Pauls account in Acts 20:1-21:40 which covers Passover and unleavened bread in Philippi [not Jerusalem] 20:6 to Pentecost in the Temple.)
As you can see he didn’t go there to make atonement for his sins. He went to finish his vow Acts 18:18. But Guaranteed he did bring a sin sacrifice. In fact in this case he brought several!
When worshipers came to the Temple they were NOT going there to atone for any sins they had committed. They were there for an intimate RELATIONSHIP experience with YHVH. If they had approached the Temple in an unclean state they risked life and limb and they knew it.
The sin sacrifice was brought by the worshiper to the priest to offer up for their sins committed in ignorance unintentionally. Yeshua punctuates this when He finished His life on earth with the Statement
“Father forgive them. THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.”
That is biblical grace. Past, Present, AND Future. Once we’ve been instructed can we continue to claim ignorance? Maybe and maybe not. But there’s a better question to ask.
Once we’ve been instructed and stubbornly refuse to consider our ways, can we then claim to be humble?
2Ch 7:14 if My people, who are called by My name, shall
“”humble”” themselves
and “pray”,
and “seek My face”
and “”turn from their wicked ways””,
THEN will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Selah
The problem with claiming the Talmud/oral Torah is just a man-made religion is fleshed out when one starts trying to obeying the Law like the Israelites did. You run into all sorts of problems because i is not very specific and does not provide an explanation into how to do it. Questions such as “what is considered keeping the Sabbath holy, and what is considered desecrating it?”, “what is considered work?”, “if a boy’s 6th day falls on the sabbath should we circumcise on the sabbath or wait until the next day?” come up. There’s alot of questions like these not answered. As a result Moses would listen to the people’s questions and cases all day until, he listened to Jethro and appointed leaders to help him. In Exodus 18:25-16, Deuteronomy 17:8-13, part of the written law included obeying these leaders who were helping to determine Halacha/Oral Torah/how to do the Law. It continues in 2 Chronicles 19:4-11 and Numbers 11:17. The written Torah presumes and required them to have leaders explaining how to obey, and said to follow their rulings, with strict penalty. So when He said they sit in Moses’ seat, that may have been what He was referring to, that they were in the position of those leaders. However, now that the jews don’t really have a group making decisions for all the rest (a modern Sanhedrin), we have a different situation.
I am hesitant to just throw out the Oral Torah, because without it we would not know how the Israelites approached the mitzvot in the past, or what Paul meant when we said that the water-giving rock followed them across the desert, or what He was referring to in many of His sayings in the NT (debates between the religious factions in the Oral Torah). It additionally fills in a lot of information the written Torah leaves out (such as the rest of the calendar). Paul also seeme to think there were some good traditions (2 Thessalonians 2:15), though the problem would be knowing which were good and which were bad. Trying to follow His commands without the Oral Torah seems very difficult, if not impossible because of the amount of information and insight it contains. On the other hand, He did give many warnings about the Oral Torah in Matthew 15:1-9, Matthew 16:6 and Matthew 16:19.
What do you think?
Hi, in reply to your question about what I think about the two rooms of children, (I didn’t see a way to post directly beneath it)
I think there are lots of parables out there, but Jesus’ parables are best.
We have to know what lies beneath a parable from anybody else, but we know we can 100% trust what Jesus’ intentions are.
I heard just last night a reporter or whatever he was, going around in Louisville, KY, asking people on the street, “What is the correct way to pronounce the name of KY’s capitol, Louisville?” People kept telling him their local pronunciation of Louisville. When done tho, he called attention to the fact that Louisville isn’t the capitol at all, Frankfort is!
We so easily get off the main subject.
–“My current understanding is that the rules are still needed because we still sin.” —
I understand what you are saying, but my understanding is rules didn’t save us anyway, Jesus did!
So many people go around doing a lot of stuff, “just in case”. But our Savior is ‘Jesus Christ’ NOT ‘Justin Case’. Too many people are afraid to throw their whole weight on Jesus, and keep relying on Justin Case to get them thru.
Now you will get many, many other versions here, you will soon see I am considered one of the most ignorant-out of touch people in this community. lol. So be prepared, and while we can certainly learn from others, bottom line is keep referring back to the Holy Spirit who is your real teacher.
WHy do you insist on equating grace and “salvation” with Torah obedience? No righteous Jew did that. Yeshua didn’t do that. But since about 150AD the Church has set up this artificial divide between grace and law. What if the “Law” is nothing more than “how to live in the world with grace?” Where’s the conflict?
By the way, since it is very clear that God’s people in the tanakh were expected to walk according to Torah, and it is very clear that Yeshua did that, and expected others to do the same, you might ask WHEN the idea of a conflict between grace and law first appeared in Christian thinking and WHO started it? Yes, the history (not the text) tells us the answer IF we care to look.
DOROTHY DEAR – YOU MUST BE A TRUE DISCIPLE THEN – IF YOU ARE AS DULL AS YOU THINK YOU ARE – SINCE JESUS CALLED HIS OWN DISCIPLES DULL… ♥ YEAH, I’M RIGHT THERE WITH YOU…
” I am considered one of the most ignorant-out of touch people in this community. lol. So be prepared, and while we can certainly learn from others, bottom line is keep referring back to the Holy Spirit who is your real teacher.”
When I study the oral Torah I am primarily looking for how halachac is interpreted and its language use. I the tms link I provided above there is an example of a quote the author can not recognize but which includes Psalm 123. He is unaware of how Pharisees quote halachaic rulings by combining relevent contextual references that apply to the circumstance. This is how ancient covenant case law was used in its juridical context. Oral Torah serves as a record of how halacha is applied. The calender was changed from the solar to the Babylonian just as hebrew written script was acquired in Egypt and eventually changed to biblical hebrew in Babylon. The hebrew view of mitzvah represents a radical departure from the patriarchs who all believed in the resurrection of the dead. It is a corruption caused by Israel’s sojourn in Egypt. Many Israelites left Egypt with Moses to make a shem for themselves just as Nimrod did before them. They were the ones whose corpses were left in the desert. For believers salvation is the spirit of adoption from Adonai enabling us to become sons and daughters of Christ.
You seem so knowledgeable on these things, I didn’t know about the changes in Babylon. How did you learn about them? (I only ask so I can learn about how these things to.) I especially want to ask what you mean by the Hebrew view of the mitzvot changing?
And also, what you said earlier about not letting the law become an end in and of itself, I realize that is what I have been doing. But since it is obvious the Torah did change, and the mitzvot have been used very fluidly, sometimes strictly and sometimes very loosely, sometimes even disregarded for something else, how do we know the right way to live (after salvation)? The Torah seems less of a set of rules to follow to me, and more the original meaning: an arrow pointing in the right direction (almost a guide). He seems to explain He wants our obedience, and even in Revelations, His people are those that obey Him, but I don’t really see much messianic halacha, or explaining of what/how He wants us to obey. >>Is it that what is more important that we are attempting to obey and putting forth effort to at least do what we know (such as the fruit of the spirit), and not that we are following every mitzvot to a T? The latter doesn’t seem possible for the reasons I already gave…
I’m posting all my responses here.
I like Tim Hegg and I like Nehemia Gordon. I don’t follow either one over a cliff.
I think the oral Torah is very usful. I don’t follow any of it’s teachings over a cliff.
Here’s my recipe
Mrs. Custer’s Challah (two loafs)
Put 1 T. sugar in a bowl with 1/2 C. warm water and 2 T. yeast. Set aside and let foam.
Combine in a mixing bowl 1/2 C. soft or melted butter, 1/2 C. warm liquidy honey or brown sugar, 4 eggs, 1 T. salt and blend with a mixer.
Mix in 2 cups hot water Add and mix in 4 Cups flour. Then mix in yeast mixture. Add about 4 more cups of flour and mix with a wooden spoon.
Pour out onto a kneading board and add enough flour to make the dough firm but not dry at all. Knead until smooth. Grease a bowl with butter and put dough in it and turn it over to expose the greased side up. Cover with a moist towel and let rise to double in bulk. Punch down and divide in half. Set one half aside.
Set aside 1/3 of the half you are working with. Divide the other 2/3s into 3rds. Roll into 3 ropes and braid. Place on an oiled air bake cookie sheet. Take the set aside third and divide into 3rds. Make three ropes and braid them. Moisten the top of first braided loaf with water and press the second braid onto the top of the first braided loaf. In a small bowl beat 1 egg with 1 T. water until foamy. Slather some of the egg mixture over the entire loaf as a glaze. Sprinkle (like a pretzel) with kosher salt and bake at 350 for 25 to 30 minutes. DO NOT OVER BAKE. The crust will be golden on the outer part of the braid but somewhat white in the center indentation of the top braid.
Repeat this with the other half of the dough preparing the second loaf as the first loaf is baking. Glaze with remaining egg mixture, salt and bake.
You can use half whole wheat or spelt flour in the first 4 cups of flour for a grainy texture. Always use white flour for the final 4 cups to smooth out the dough. Wrap in plastic wrap or bag after completely cool.
Shabbat Shalom
Dear Amber,
The changes that occurred during Israel’s captivity in Babylon are historical. You can read articles published on JPOST from various universities in Israel or you can study course offerings about Israel’s language development. You probably can get information online. The changes from Egypt are also quite similar. Abraham had an oral tradition received from Melchizedek which, according to the Targums, was Shem the son of Noah. When Hagar and Ishmael were driven out of the tribe of Abraham, Adonai declared to Abraham that he would receive the blessing the seed through Sarah. Eventually Isaac was born after many fruitless years and Adonai declared to Abraham that he must sacrifice Isaac at the “place”. The “place” is never specified but appears to be either where the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil stood or where the Tree of Life stood. At that time hebraic traditions suggest that animal sacrifice was used for atonement and covenant rituals and thanksgiving offerings where made using bread and wine. It is possible that atonement rituals done by Abraham (and Melchizedek) were performed at Mt. Moriah at the place where the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil stood and that Todah was offerred at Mt. Moriah in the place where the Tree of Life stood. This would follow the usage of the “place” being associated with “peace” and later during king David, the establishment of Jerusalem “vision of peace”. Since there are no reliable sources this narrative is only conjucture that appears to correlate hebraic mysticism in a valid framework. Therefore Abraham is thought to have offerred Isaac as a human sacrifice at the place where the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil stood as an atonement ritual. By faith Abraham offerred Isaac up to death, beleiving in the promise of Adonai for seed and expecting Isaac would be raised from the dead. By faith Isaac submitted himself to Abraham believing in the promise that he would be returned unharmed declaring to Isaac his son that Adonai would provide the sacrifice for atonement. In Gen 22 Adonai swears by Himself to bless Abraham, his seed, and the goyim forever – implying that He is taking upon Himself the curse of man’s disobediance and failure to obey. Adonai is going to complete the sacrifice making atonement for man’s disobediance in the Garden of Eden. Abraham’s heart must have overflowed with joy and gladness at having Isaac returned unharmed and Adonai taking upon himself the curse for man’s disobediance fulfilling His judgment in Gen 3:15. Isaac too must have been relieved to hear the angel’s voice from heaven sparing his life on the alter and offerring hope for himself and his seed. This is not merely a temporal deliverance from mortal danger, but also a covenant to destroy death and the power of the Nahash. Adonai would provide the sacrifice from the seed of the woman to crush the head of the Serpent that Isaac would himself father. This is the covenant of Abraham’s blessing and this is the understanding that Israel lost after 400 years of corruption in Egypt. When Adonai named Israel in Egypt and called them out many came only to build a shem for themselves – to flee the wrath of Egypt in the pursuit of earthly blessing and authority. Pessah was instituted by Moses as a covenant rememberance of Abraham’s covenant of blessing. The pascal lamb slain is a substitute for the son Adonai would offer in place of Isaac and his generations. This is a covenant betrothal between the nation of Israel and Adonai which is to be completed at Mt. Sinai where Israel apostacizes. Israel’s heart is uncircumcized, filled with the desire for political and religious autonomy rather than deliverance by Adonai. Aaron is pressed into service to make a golden calf to serve as a “shem” for Israel replacing Adonai who called them out of Egypt with a graven image of a bull – the Egyptian deity thought to be responsible for giving Egypt progeny. Abraham was given circumcision by Adonai to declare his faithfulness in the power of Adonai to sustain his seed upon the earth and mark his flesh as testimony against those who disobeyed before the flood forsaking the covenant of marriage Adonai established and instead trusting in the power of their loins to fill the earth. It was they who were destroyed in the flood leaving Noah, a man with one wife, as the only survivor of men on the face of the earth. Jacob-Israel had two wives who bore him 12 sons, yet he suffered for it by Joseph for the emnity this placed among his seed. Even so, Adonai kept faith turning Joseph’s woe into life for himself, his brothers, and Israel his father. Therefore Israel’s apostacy at Mt. Sinai was not merely a graven image of a calf; it was a rebellion against the circumcision of Abraham and Abraham’s covenant of seed, land, and blessing. These were the spiritual children of Nimrod who before them abandoned the covenant with Shem, the son of Noah, to build a shem for themselves in Babylon and who Adonai scatterred to the four corners of the earth. Like him these wayward children of the flesh sought to build a shem with a golden calf turning their backs on Adonai and Moses His prophet. Therefore Moses broke the Tablets of the law upon the ground before them declaring the curse pronounced in the Garden of Eden for Adam’s disobediance. Only the Levites stood with Moses to slay the golden calf worshippers and therefore only they retained the office of priest given to Abraham. The rest of Israel was stripped of the priesthood for their wickedness for their hearts were uncircumcized before Adonai for having rejected the covenant of Abraham. Moses instituted the Levitical priesthood to restore Israel’s heart and desire for the covenant of Adonai. Israel was required to sacrifice the animal deities of Egypt which they had followed before Adonai lead their hearts back to Adonai but because Israel’s heart was uncircumcized she failed to turn back to Him. Israel’s heart was uncircumcized because Israel did not ask Adonai to circumcize it. Israel did not ask Adonai to circumcize her heart because she took no pleasure in Him or His presence. Israel’s only desire was the material wealth and blessing that Adonai provided. When Israel was again tested after 20 years of wandering she again failed and wandered 20 more and when she was tested a third time on the plains of Moab she again failed forcing Moses to institutionalize the burdens of Torah. Observance was forced on Israel like a yoke around the neck of a wayward slave so that Israel would chaff at her burden until she would finally cry out to Adonai and He would circumcize her heart among the goyim and restore her to the land of her fathers. Torah observance was made into a burden by Moses to teach Israel the need for a circumcized heart. Eventually under the law of Moses the blessings are lost until all that remains are the curses. This is where Israel stands today with the loss of the temple and the levitical priesthood. Mashiach has come and fulfilled the sacrifice Adonai’s oath demanded in place of Isaac. Now Israel must face the children of Ishmael and bring them back into Abraham’s tent to receive Adonai’s shem which they have forgotten. This is how Adonai cricumcizes the hearts of Israel – the children of Ishmael are like the stones of Jerico’s wall which Israel can not breach. Until the priesthood of Mashiach blows the shofar 7 times the walls remain and Israel lives in distress. The power of Israel is in the priesthood of Mashiach not in secular armies and means. Until these walls fall into the earth like Jericho’s, Israel’s armies will remain in stalemate subject to constant strife with little or no gain at great cost. Adonai always uses that which is lowly and humble to cast down the haughty and rich so that it can be seen clearly that he alone is Adonai.
Christopher: you make this statement:
In general: obeying the law of Moses from a legalistic approach of balancing mitzvah against sin is embracing the wickedness of the Pharisees Jesus condemns.
This statement belies a a basic misunderstanding of the Hebraic world view of Yeshua and Sha’ul. BTW,Jesus is not his name. Its a transliteration of a translation of a translation. His name is Yeshua. Of course you are right, that trying to obey the Torah from a legalistic approach is not good… and the Jews knew that, but the Gentiles didn’t. That is exactly why Sha’ul told the GENTILES that they would not benefit from ‘works of the law’, which is an idiom (look it up).Works of the Law is the effects, not the Laws themselves. The Jewish people do not look at the Torah as ‘Laws’. To not know that shows that you have no idea how your Jesus thought!
Just because Yeshua did not like what some Pharisees and Saducees, and Essenes, and others behaved, does not mean that He condemned ALL Pharisees. You lump them all together without parsing out WHICH Pharisees, and exactly what behavior; because Yeshua also said that unless OUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, we would not see the Kingdom of G_d (btw, not a place). The KOG is a heart yielded to G_d’s way of living (aka Torah, LXX translation nomos). So does that mean that WE are condemned? All of us because some of us don’t follow Torah, we throw it out. Too bad that we call ourselves the “Bride of Christ” then throw out the Ketubah! NO married couple does that.
If you read the NT docs with a Jewish worldview, you do not see it the way you are obviously taking it. Since Yeshua, AND all the NT writers including Sha’ul, were Jewish, they did not think in the same categories that we do. They did not understand the world the way the West does. They thought in totality. Words to them moved, the person was not an individual but rather an expression of a larger movement. Words are actions, not descriptions. They thought in ways that are antithetical to Greek. Read Ken Soulen, The God of Israel and Christian Theology for a bigger picture of the Standard Canonical Narrative that was added about 90 years AFTER the death of the Apostle Paul. Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus are two church fathers who ‘reimagined’ scripture through a Greek philosophical grid…we are still unravelling the mess.
Hi Cheryl,
Christopher is a very smart cookie, and the best teacher I’ve ever had — and he only uses the name ‘Jesus’ for me, because that is what I call my LORD.
And one reason I keep using it (now) is to see if this community is going to love me, or are too ‘puffed up’ for a lowly gentile. Christopher is a gentleman.
It’s OK Dorothy, we’re just arguing, not fighting. An argument is a debate, a fight is divisive. So, not to worry, this is how we learn.
DOROTHY DEAR, I STILL USE JESUS TOO – NOT AFRAID OR SCARED CAUSE I LOVE THAT NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES & HE/JESUS KNOWS THAT ABOUT ME & YOU… ♥
thanks for the clarification, Cheryl. There are many resources on my recommended reading list on the website that [provide scholarly support for your analysis. It is common for Christians to lump everyone denoted in the New Testament into group categories, and the Pharisees head that list. But when you consider that Yeshua’s teaching are often word-for-word citations of the rabbis who lived before he was born, and that his theological perspective is very close to that of some very famous Pharisees, it is hard to continue to claim that all the Pharisees were evil hypocrites. Once again we must turn to the REAL history, not the rewritten history that is so often provided by the Church. As you point out, Yeshua’s attitude toward the Torah is perfectly consistent with all Torah-observant Jews including the Pharisees. Of course, hypocrites are a favorite target of those who see God’s ways – and certainly the contemporary Church has a few of them too.
As for Yeshua’s name, “Jesus” is in fact neither historically nor linguistically correct. Most Christians have no idea about this and continue to use the name “Jesus” without even considering that it is the equivalent of calling me Diego instead of Skip. Now, if you constantly called me Diego, I would know that you were talking to me, but how do you think I would feel if you couldn’t even remember my name?
In the end, “Jesus” is just another form of the Christian refusal to acknowledge that we have learned some things incorrectly. ONCE MORE, the tradition is stronger than the text. Most believers hold on to their TRADITION no matter what, probably because they feel the threat of acknowledging that they have been mistaken in their beliefs. But to continue to hold the tradition AFTER you have been shown the error of your ways says more about your spiritual openness than we would like to admit. Of course, for some of us it takes a long time to come to terms with this. My concern really is for those who simply refuse to align themselves with the truth because “that’s not the way I learned it.”
Skip, which Rabbi was it that said, if Israel is not ready, Meshiach will die…referrring to Meshiach ben Josef and Meshaic ben David? Aqiba? don’t think so
Dear Cheryl Durnam,
I disagree with your notion that the pharisees Jesus-Yeshua condemned as hypocrites didn’t believe their observance made them holy. Torat Kohanim, “instructions for the priests” (Mishnah Megillot 1:5) is the holiness code the pharisees followed and to which they added from the Oral Torah. Obeying the Torah from a legalistic motive isn’t just bad, its deadly. I have no difficulties in using Yeshua Mashiac or Jesus Christ as interchangable because I understand both the hebraic context and the halachaic context for biblical sources:
Although not exclusive I have at least examined Catholic, Reform, Conservative-Masorti, Orthodox, and various christian exegetical sources for the Old and New Testaments, Old Testament Apocrypha (Life of Adam and Eve, Apocalypse of Abraham, Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch, Greek Apocalypse of Baruch, Apocalypse of Moses, Assumption of Moses, Ascension of Isaiah, Pseudo-Philo, First Enoch Ethiopic, Second Enoch Slavonic, Third Enoch Hebrew, Epistle of Aristeas to Philocrates, Esdras A LXX; III Esdras Latin, IV Esdras Vulgate, Apocalypse of Ezra, Joseph and Aseneth, Book of Jubilees, Third Maccabees Ptolemacia, Fourth Macabees On the Supremacy of Reason, Martyrdom of Isaiah, Odes of Solomon, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalms of Solomon, Qumram Literature, Sibylline Oracles, Testaments of the Twelve Patriachs, Testament of Benjamin, Testament of Levi, Testament of Abraham). I have also had occasion to review material from the Dead Sea scrolls and related text, the Apocrypha of the New Testament, Early Patristic Writings, Targumic and Rabbinical works, Nag Hammadi Tractates, as well as various serials, periodicals, and books. While I am just a mediocre scripture scholar and not a recognized poskim I try to fill the shoes Adonai has given me to wear. That is why I must disagree with your declaration that “works of the law” is an idiom when I know in fact that it is a covenant halachaic term used with a precise juridical application in the Torah by scribes, lawyers, and pharisees of the temple. Whether you except the greek text or not Yeshua was speaking collectively of all those who held the authority of the temple. In terms of Torah – it is the embodiment of Adonai’s covenant wisdom and authority intended for the reception of Israel – a point of failure on my part for not adequately explaining what I thought to be self evident. The kingdom of Adonai is both a place and a person because man is both an image and a likeness of Him. Had this not been the case then Abraham would not have received a covenant for the land because there would be no need. What you seem to have missed is that form is a representation of Adonai – Kabbalah teaches as above so below – and that therefore physical dimension is an instrumentality of stewardship. It represents the limitless degrees of seperation from the will of Adonai.
“The Jewish people do not look at the Torah as ‘Laws’. To not know that shows that you have no idea how your Jesus thought!”
Here again you seem to be in conflict with texts which show Yeshua and the pharisees fiercely debating about the commands of Sabbath. I wont waste my time arguing about using the term ‘command” vs “law” when the underlying root is whether or not observance was compulsory. This is English and therefore we must approximate when necessary.
“You lump them all together without parsing out WHICH Pharisees, and exactly what behavior”
Obviously I must have made some mistake since I thought the contextual usage was clear – Yeshua was referring to those who held the temple authority and therefore whose decisions were halachaically binding for all observance.
I am somewhat familiar with both Justin Martyr and Irenaeus and I have even heard of Paul too! I appreciate your time and value your input. I am also quite involved in the task of unifying Judaism and eventually even christianity. Dorothy obviously thinks too highly of me since she is not so critical. I am committed to the task of uncovering the commonality between Reform, Masorti, and Orthodoxy despite the many impediments and errors which have crept into halachaic teachings. I also seek to unite christianity with Judaism. These are the two tasks for which I am held accountable. Please review my other posts going back to June 12 if you so desire. I would value your inputs highly as I do everyone!
Shabbat Shalom if I fail to hear from you by nightfall Friday!
One interesting exegete on works of the law can be found here:
http://www.triumphpro.com/works-deeds-of-the-law.pdf
Christopher, Thank you for your reply, and the article that you cite below is good fodder for my answer. I will not be able to reply to you by Shabbat, hence, Shabbat Shalom to you too! However, I will be travelling on Sunday and will compose a reply. I do agree with some of your statements, however, I believe you are missing my point. It is the way that we ‘look’ at Yeshua, Sha’ul and the ancient history of the communities, and what those texts are trying to get us to ‘hear’, that makes the difference between the legalism that Yeshua, as well as Sha’ul were fighting and the ‘understanding’ that they were trying to get us to do. I will attempt to make this as clear as mud…or better if I can.
Dear Cheryl Durham,
Here is some more information I wanted to post when the server was dow. I thought it might help your criticism:
… One of my late brothers was Reform, as was I until I encountered Chabad. Later I found it necessary to become Misnagdim. My current postings are intended to show there is a single unifying convergence for Reform, Masorti, and Orthodox streams from a single Torah exegesis that “connects” these streams of Judaism as well as believers in Mashiach. I view the Greek name Jesus and the Hebrew name Yeshua in the same context as say the Greek name Paul and the Hebrew Saul making no distinction in the terms Annointed, Christ, or Mashiach with the understanding that capitalization in the English denotes the difference between Mashiach the Son of Adonai and mashiach King David. With that said I have used the term “resurrected” in my posting on the 4th of July referring to Abraham’s faith as a modern rendition of Abraham expecting Isaac would be restored to him by Adonai. The exegete is based on the theory of post Sinaitic script and expresses the historical continuity that must exist under its assumptions, namely that the Torah teachings prior to Joseph were verbally transmitted from Shem the son of Noah to Abraham the next Melchizedek who received the Adamic covenant (meaning covenant continuity from Noah to Adam) blessing from Shem (the then current Melchizedek) and upon his death received the law of circumcision from Adonai – a change in priesthood establishing a change in law from the first born to the father of every family. Therefore Joseph the patriarch would, by inference (i.e. does not impose external input on the Torah text that violates its internal continuity), have had Egyptian scribes add Hebraic vocabulary to Egyptian hieroglyphics and then recorded these oral traditions (in his capacity as both a prophet and second to Pharoh) to preserve them from the upcoming corruption that would inevitable ensue as 400 years of Egyptian contamination would lead Israelites into believing that Adonai was only one god among the Egyptian deities and altering its Abrahamic notion concerning life after death. In this context Leviticus can be seen as established by Moses to eliminate Egyptian contamination after the sin of the golden calf necessitates it and later Deuteronomy to prevent apostacy from Cannanite contamination in the land after the sin on the plains of Moab. Although post 2nd temple Judaism abandoned the Torah teaching of a divine Messiah after the pharisees were wiped clean and Jerusalem put to the torch, the Torah still testifies to it (i.e. does not violate its internal consistency) just as it testifies that Yeshua must die in place of Isaac to complete the Oath of Adonai. The pharisees did not accept Yeshua because he came as a victim and not as the incomprehensible power of Adonai. The Seat of Moses has passed onto Peter and his office as the keys signify in Matthew 28 (see Isaiah 22: 15-25 about Shebna’s replacement). Covenant promise always carries a double blessing because man is made in the image and likeness of Adonai, therefore its loss always represents a double curse. Recent actions by US Conservative Jews have legalized homosexuality creating a man made torah to replace the divine Torah and eliciting the need to restore what has been lost. Even some haredi in Jerusalem are teaching it is improper to declare the Torah teaching against homosexuality merely because the requirements for two witnesses are difficult to implement. To purify this abomination and others that are creeping back in to Judaism requires showing how each stream of Judaism, as well as christianity, has at its root a single unified understanding upon which each has built. That is the purpose for my posts here.
Christopher, bless you, bless you, bless you in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit!
The world n e e d s you.
I wish to speak to you ‘off record’. If you are willing, please contact me at: http://www.18wheelsacrossamerica.net/
On the header where it says ‘contact me’, choose ’email bigrigsteve’ and in the message part simply say ‘hi dorothy’, I will get back to you!
Thank you! Either way, thank you!
“Christopher: you make this statement:
In general: obeying the law of Moses from a legalistic approach of balancing mitzvah against sin is embracing the wickedness of the Pharisees Jesus condemns.
This statement belies a a basic misunderstanding of the Hebraic world view of Yeshua and Sha’ul.”
Torah has several meanings in Judaism. It can be understood, for example, as the Chumash – a scroll made from kosher animal parchment with the text of the five books written on it. It can mean any writing that contains the entire 5 books written on it. It can also mean the entire corpus of Jewish observance. According to Eliezer ben Yose the Galilean, for 974 generations before the creation of the world the Torah lay in God’s bosom and joined the ministering angels in song. Simeon ben Lakish taught that the Torah preceded the world by 2,000 years and was written in black fire upon white fire. Akiva called the Torah “the precious instrument by which the world was created”. Rav said that God created the world by looking into the Torah as an architect builds a palace by looking into blueprints. Other Jewish sages, however, disregard the literal belief that the Torah existed before all else. Saadiah Gaon rejected this belief on the grounds that it contradicts the principle of creation ex nihilo. Judah Barzillai of Barcelona raised the problem of place. Where could God have kept a preexistent Torah? While allowing that God could conceivably have provided an ante-mundane place for a corporeal Torah, he preferred the interpretation that the Torah preexisted only as a thought in the divine mind. Similarly, the Ibn Ezra raised the problem of time. He wrote that it is impossible for the Torah to have preceded the world by 2,000 years or even by one moment, since time is an accident of motion, and there was no motion before God created the celestial spheres; rather, he concluded, the teaching about the Torah’s preexistence must be a metaphoric riddle.
Judah Halevi attempts to alleviate the argument by explaining that the Torah precedes the world in terms of teleology; God created the world for the purpose of revealing the Torah; therefore, since, as the philosophers say, “the first of thought is the end of the work,” the Torah is said to have existed before the world.
The Jewish Virtual library goes on to say:
“The Septuagint rendered the Hebrew torah by the Greek nomos (“law”), probably in the sense of a living network of traditions and customs of a people. The designation of the Torah by nomos, and by its Latin successor lex (whence, “the Law”), has historically given rise to the misunderstanding that Torah means legalism.
It was one of the very few real dogmas of rabbinic theology that the Torah is from heaven; i.e., the Torah in its entirety was revealed by God. According to biblical stories, Moses ascended into heaven to capture the Torah from the angels. In one of the oldest mishnaic statements it is taught that Torah is one of the three things by which the world is sustained. Eleazar ben Shammua said: “Were it not for the Torah, heaven and earth would not continue to exist”.
The Torah was often compared to fire, water, wine, oil, milk, honey, drugs, manna, the tree of life, and many other things; it was considered the source of freedom, goodness, and life; it was identified both with wisdom and with love. Hillel summarized the entire Torah in one sentence: “What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow”. Akiva said: “The fundamental principle of the Torah is the commandment, ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself ‘”.
The message of the Torah is for all mankind. Before giving the Torah to Israel, God offered it to the other nations, but they refused it; and when He did give the Torah to Israel, He revealed it in the extraterritorial desert and simultaneously in all the 70 languages, so that men of all nations would have a right to it. Alongside this universalism, the rabbis taught the inseparability of Israel and the Torah. One rabbi held that the concept of Israel existed in God’s mind even before He created the Torah. Yet, were it not for its accepting the Torah, Israel would not be “chosen,” nor would it be different from all the idolatrous nations.
Saadiah Gaon expounded a rationalist theory according to which the ethical and religious-intellectual beliefs imparted by the Torah are all attainable by human reason. He held that the Torah is divisible into two parts:
(1) commandments which, in addition to being revealed, are demanded by reason (e.g., prohibitions of murder, fornication, theft, lying); and
(2) commandments whose authority is revelation alone (e.g., Sabbath and dietary laws), but which generally are understandable in terms of some personal or social benefit attained by their performance.
In the period between Saadiah and Maimonides, most Jewish writers who speculated on the nature of the Torah continued in this rationalist tradition.
Judah Halevi, however, opposed the rationalist interpretation. He allowed that the Torah contains rational and political laws, but considered them preliminary to the specifically divine laws and teachings which cannot be comprehended by reason, e.g., the laws of the Sabbath which teach the omnipotence of God and the creation of the world. The Torah makes it possible to approach God by awe, love, and joy. It is the essence of wisdom, and the outcome of the will of God to reveal His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.
While Judah Halevi held that Israel was created to fulfill the Torah, he wrote that there would be no Torah were there no Israel.
Maimonides emphasized that the Torah is the product of the unique prophecy of Moses. He maintained that the Torah has two purposes:
(1) The welfare of the body, which is a prerequisite of the ultimate purpose, is political, and “consists in the governance of the city and the well-being of the state of all its people according to their capacity.
(2) The welfare of the soul (intellect), which consists in the true perfection of man, his acquisition of immortality through intellection of the highest things.
Maimonides held that the Torah is similar to other laws in its concern with the welfare of the body; but its divine nature is reflected in its concern for the welfare of the soul. Maimonides saw the Torah as a rationalizing force, warring against superstition, imagination, appetite, and idolatry. He cited the rabbinic dictum, “Everyone who disbelieves in idolatry professes the Torah in its entirety”, and taught that the foundation of the Torah and the pivot around which it turns consists in the effacement of idolatry. He held that the Torah must be interpreted in the light of reason.
While Maimonides generally restricted analysis of the nature of the Torah to questions of its educational, moral, or political value, the Spanish kabbalists engaged in bold metaphysical speculation concerning its essence. The kabbalists taught that the Torah is a living organism. Some said the entire Torah consists of the names of God set in succession or interwoven into a fabric. Ultimately, it was said that the Torah is God. This identification of the Torah and God was understood to refer to the Torah in its true primordial essence, and not to its manifestation in the world of creation.
Influenced by Maimonides, Baruch Spinoza took the position that the Torah is an exclusively political law, however he broke radically with all rabbinic tradition by denying its divine nature, by making it an object of historical-critical investigation, and by maintaining that it was not written by Moses alone but by various authors living at different times. Moreover, he considered the Torah primitive, unscientific, and particularistic, and thus subversive to progress, reason, and universal morality. By portraying the Torah as a product of the Jewish people, he reversed the traditional opinion according to which the Jewish people are a product of the Torah.
Moses Mendelssohn considered the Torah a political law, but he affirmed its divine nature. He explained that the Torah does not intend to reveal new ideas about deism and morality, but rather, through its laws and institutions, to arouse men to be mindful of the true ideas attainable by all men through reason. By identifying the beliefs of the Torah with the truths of reason, Mendelssohn affirmed both its scientific respectability and its universalistic nature. By defining the Torah as a political law given to Israel by God, he preserved the traditional view that Israel is a product of the Torah, and not, as Spinoza claimed, vice versa.
With the rise of the science of Judaism (Wissenschaft des Judentums) in the 19th century, and the advance of the historical-critical approach to the Torah, many Jewish intellectuals, including ideologists of Reform like Abraham Geiger, followed Spinoza in seeing the Torah, at least in part, as a product of the primitive history of the Jewish nation.
The increasing intellectualization of the Torah was opposed by Samuel David Luzzatto. He contended that the belief that God revealed the Torah is the starting point of Judaism, and that this belief, with its momentous implications concerning the nature of God and His relation to man, cannot be attained by philosophy. Luzzatto held that the foundation of the whole Torah is compassion.
In their German translation of the Bible, Martin Buber translated torah as Weisung or Unterweisung (“Instruction”) and not as Gesetz (“Law”). In general, he agreed on the purpose of the Torah – to convert the universe and God from It to Thou – yet differed on several points concerning its nature. Buber saw the Torah as the past dialogue between Israel and God, and the present dialogue between the individual reader, the I, and God, the Thou. He concluded that while one must open himself to the entire teaching of the Torah, he need only accept a particular law of the Torah if he feels that it is being spoken now to him.
The secular Zionism of the late 19th and early 20th centuries gave religious thinkers new cause to define the relationship between the Torah and the Jewish nation. Some defined the Torah in terms of the nation. Thus, Mordecai Kaplan translated Ahad Ha-Am’s sociological theory of the evolution of Jewish civilization into a religious, though naturalistic, theory of the Torah as the “religious civilization of the Jews.”
Other thinkers defined the nation in terms of the Torah. Thus, Abraham Isaac Kook taught that the purpose of the Torah is to reveal the living light of the universe, the suprarational spiritual, to Israel and, through Israel, to all mankind. While the Written Torah, which reveals the light in the highest channel of our soul, is the product of God alone, the Oral Torah, which is inseparable from the Written Torah, and which reveals the light in a second channel of our soul, proximate to the life of deeds, derives its personality from the spirit of the nation. The Oral Torah can live in its fullness only when Israel lives in its fullness – in peace and independence in the Land of Israel. Thus, according to Kook, modern Zionism, whatever the intent of its secular ideologists, has universal religious significance, for it is acting in service of the Torah.
In the State of Israel, most writers and educators have maintained the secularist position of the early Zionists, namely, that the Torah was not revealed by God, in the traditional sense, but is the product of the national life of ancient Israel. Those who have discussed the Torah and its relation to the state from a religious point of view have mostly followed Kook or Buber. However, a radically rationalist approach to the nature of the Torah has been taught by Yeshayahu Leibowitz who emphasizes that the Torah is a law for the worship of God and for the consequent obliteration of the worship of men and things; in this connection, he condemns the subordination of the Torah to nationalism or to religious sentimentalism or to any ideology or institution.
ETERNITY (OR NONABROGABILITY)
In the Bible there is no text unanimously understood to affirm explicitly the eternity or nonabrogability of the Torah; however, many laws of the Torah are accompanied by phrases such as, “an everlasting injunction through your generations.”
Whereas the rabbis understood the preexistence of the Torah in terms of its prerevelation existence in heaven, they understood the eternity or nonabrogability of the Torah in terms of its postrevelation existence, not in heaven; i.e., the whole Torah was given to Moses and no part of it remained in heaven. When Eliezer ben Hyrcanus and Joshua ben Hananiah were debating a point of Torah and a voice from heaven dramatically announced that Eliezer’s position was correct, Joshua refused to recognize its testimony, for the Torah “is not in heaven”, and must be interpreted by men, unaided by the supernatural. It was a principle that “a prophet is henceforth not permitted to innovate a thing.” The rabbis taught that the Torah would continue to exist in the world to come, although some of them were of the opinion that innovations would be made in the messianic era.
With the rise to political power of Christianity and Islam, two religions which sought to convert Jews and which argued that particular injunctions of the Torah had been abrogated, the question of the eternity or “nonabrogability” of the Torah became urgent.
Saadiah Gaon stated that the children of Israel have a clear tradition from the prophets that the laws of the Torah are not subject to abrogation. Presenting scriptural corroboration for this tradition, he appealed to phrases appended to certain commandments, e.g., “throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.” According to one novel argument of his, the Jewish nation is a nation only by virtue of its laws, namely, the Torah; God has stated that the Jewish nation will endure as long as the heaven and earth; therefore, the Torah will last as long as heaven and earth. He interpreted the verses, “Remember ye the Torah of Moses… Behold, I will send you Elijah…” , as teaching that the Torah will hold valid until the prophet Elijah returns to herald the resurrection.
Maimonides listed the belief in the eternity of the Torah as the ninth of his 13 principles of Judaism, and connected it with the belief that no prophet will surpass Moses, the only man to give people laws through prophecy. He contended that the eternity of the Torah is stated clearly in the Bible, particularly in the passages “thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it” and “the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this Torah”. He offered the following explanation of the Torah’s eternity, based on its perfection and on the theory of the mean: “The Torah of the Lord is perfect” (Ps. 19:8) in that its statutes are just, i.e., that they are equibalanced between the burdensome and the indulgent; and “when a thing is perfect as it is possible to be within its species, it is impossible that within that species there should be found another thing that does not fall short of the perfection either because of excess or deficiency.”
Joseph Albo criticized Maimonides for listing the belief in the eternity of the Torah as an independent fundamental belief of Judaism. In a long discussion he contended that nonabrogation is not a fundamental principle of the Torah, and that moreover, no text can be found in the Bible to establish it. Ironically, his ultimate position turned out to be closer to Maimonides’ for he concluded that the belief in the nonabrogation of the Torah is a branch of the doctrine that no prophet will surpass the excellence of Moses.
After Albo, the question of the eternity of the Torah became routine in Jewish philosophical literature. However, in the Kabbalah it was never routine. In the 13th-century Sefer ha-Temunah a doctrine of cosmic cycles (or shemittot; cf. Deut. 15) was expounded, according to which creation is renewed every 7,000 years, at which times the letters of the Torah reassemble, and the Torah enters the new cycle bearing different words and meanings. Thus, while eternal in its unrevealed state, the Torah, in its manifestation in creation, is destined to be abrogated. This doctrine became popular in later kabbalistic and ḥasidic literature, and was exploited by the heretic Shabbetai Ẓevi and his followers, who claimed that a new cycle had begun, and in consequence he was able to teach that “the abrogation of the Torah is its fulfillment!”
Jewish philosophers of modern times have not concentrated on the question of the eternity or nonabrogability of the Torah. Nevertheless, it is not entirely untenable that the main distinction between Orthodox Judaism and non-Orthodox Judaism is that the latter rejects the literal interpretation of the ninth principle of Maimonides’ Creed that there will be no change in the Torah.”
The difficulty with all these approaches is the difference between the written Torah, what it was based upon (i.e. an entity that either coexisted with Adonai or was the first creation of Adonai) and the need to insert material that is external to the writing itself. The pharisees added to the Torah heaping burden upon burden. Since they were the halachaic temple authority what they added became mandatory to observance making it difficult to seperate out various sects with the pharisees themselves. Everybody agreed, however, that that the written Torah forbade teaching it to the goyim (Det 33:4) which rabbinal Judaism holds to this day. The only exception is Jubilee. You appear to misunderstand that I am describing a distinction between purely religious observance and nationalist policies held by the state authority of the temple and enforced through both ethnic zealotry and the temple guard. Sha’ul described both the political and religious written laws as imperfect and incomplete because even when you follow them you still die. Yeshua lived the difference that Sha’ul described – destroying the power of death. If you understand Sha’ul’s theology then you eventually come to realize that Yeshua is the living Torah come down from heaven – not the written text Israel received from Moshe. I suspect my understanding of what both Sha’ul and Yeshua teach is well founded. You appear to have missed the point that what the temple pharisees added was halachaically binding upon all Israel. There is no need to parse out which pharisee did which because they all obeyed the halacha with out reservation. Your argument turns into a loss of contrast because those who disobyed halacha were no longer considered pharisees. There is no contradiction in the hebraic worldview I present. It seems that you have created the need to impose one to justify your untenable position. When we scholars study context it is necessary to ensure that our comparisons do not violate the contextual integrity of the author. Otherwise we are simply redacting our own version rather than drawing out what may be hidden with in the authors assumptions. The exegete I have presented above is derived from a variety of biblical sources that seek to explain why the High Priest after failing to meet the witness demands of the Bet Din to justify a death verdict against Yeshua decided instead used a pharisaic line of questioning Yeshua that relied upon an understanding of a Divine Mashiach – something wholly alien to the Sadduces and therefore a product of the pharisee’s halacha. If there is no grave violation of halacha then the Sanhadrin can not issue a death penalty. The High Priest therefore had to have understood precisely what I have described in my previous post about Abraham and Isaac in Gen 22 and used it against Yeshua because he understood that Yeshua believed himself to be the divine victim Adonai sent to fulfill Isaac’s sacrifice. It must also have been the case that Yeshua was rejected by the temple pharisees precisely because he did not come in the temporal power and authority of Adonai who led Israel out of Egypt. This does not mean that Judaism accepts this as the meaning of the written Torah – it does not – but rather that the text of the gospels imply this by their internal consistency. That is where you have erred in understanding my exegete.
The debacle over diet continues..
Meat offered unto idols, anyone?- To drink or not to drink alcohol- that is the question. Whether or not to eat “garbage food”- or even “junk” food for that matter- that is the question. The world will know- the “unsaved” will know- I am a Christian by the food I eat. Everyone in my neighborhood notices I do not eat junk. – And they care.
They will know we are Christians by our love for one another. By “this” shall all men know you are my talmudim:- “by the food you eat?” Liver and onions anyone? Ewhhhh or yummm?
Many Christians think smoking is a sin. Or drinking, or dancing- or having any fun at all- There are some among us who take offense at the word “church” or “Christian” or don’t dare mention the Name “Jesus” at any government function- for it may offend someone. So we remain silent for fear of offending. My brethren (the ones who serve and protect) these things ought not so to be. They will know we are Christians by our love. Love forgives. Loves protects. Love serves. (and no, I do not smoke or drink, but am fond of Zumba!) Judge me, – please! Put me inside the proper box. lol!
Faith is our right-response to what God says- and that right-response is obedience. Obedience to even the jots and tittles- what we would consider the “small stuff.” Friends- it’s all “small stuff”- What our Father longs for,- yearns for- the desire of the Father, (our Father- Father of the Jew and Father of the Gentile)- Creator of all creatures who draw breath (are you breathing?) longs for reconciliation.
How many “shisms” are there that should be “wasims?” Division. Separation. Sin. Sin separates and sin divides. What is sin? Disobedience to the word(s) of God- not obeying the instructions- the directions, the Torah of YHWH- our Creator, Protector, Redeemer and everlasting Friend.
Father Abraham had two sons. Isaac and Ishmael. Did God love and provide for Ishmael? Yes, He did, and “saw” Hagar as well. Our Bible instructs and informs- “other sheep have I which are not of this fold.”
Everywhere Paul went there was either a revival or a riot. Why? Why did they beat him and run him out of town, tarred and feathered on a rail? Over diet? No. Over preaching and proclaiming “Christ crucified.”
Christ needs to be our focus, not our diet. (You want fries with that?) Listen intently to the words of our Messiah. Friends, “our” Messiah. LORD of the Jew and LORD of the junk food junkie Gentile. Here me when I say- LORD of all. And yes, “why call ye Me LORD LORD and do not what I say..” I will do Torah and then I will understand. Torah is instruction. It is God’s instruction – straight from God’s Book- “Whatever He says unto you -= do it.” From His Book. Read and follow label directions. Lather-rinse-repeat. Obey and be blessed. (Don’t eat junk!- and this includes HDTV!)- Why? – Philippians 4.8
What are we to obey? His words.
Who are we to obey? Him.
Why are we to obey? Because God is our Father. Relationship. Relationship. Relationship. – Do you see religion in here anywhere? What about ritual? – It is (listen please) blood-covenant relationship. God is our Father and we are brothers and sisters “in Christ.” “In Christ” is the key to our fellowship. We feast on the provided Lamb. If “Jesus” offends the Jew- maybe we should refer to Him from now on as “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?” Oh? I thought I just saw “world.” A little bit bigger than just Israel? Aren’t the Jews the chosen people of God? Yes. Always. God is far from through with the Jew. He speaks through Israel. Why? Because He has Sovereignly chosen to do so. This is the LORD’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes.
Lo, and behold- Christ was crucified during Passover. The Lamb of God was slain during Passover. May I scream now? I feel as though I must. Please excuse me..- I’m about to have a runaway fit. (Does this bother anyone besides me?) Why do I feel so all alone?
The Lamb of God (who takes away the sins of the world) was crucified during Passover. WhYYYYYYY?- Tell me. Please. Why? Why did God Sovereignly choose the Passover thousands of years earlier and then choose that particular feast? Is this mere coincedence? or is this Providence?
This, my friends, is jesus- King of the Jews. Here is your sign.., -now, what’s for lunch?
~ But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself ~ (John 12.32)
~ For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified ~ (I Corinthians 2.2)
Israel, -behold your King, and bow the knee.
~ that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father ~
~ Every knee will bow..~ every tongue will confess.. ~ May it begin today. Amen.
~For I am not ashamed of the gospel (yes, good news) of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes; to the Jew first, (always) and to the Greek (also). “Whosoever will” may come and drink of the Water of Life freely..- and when our LORD said “whosoever,”- He included me.
Skip, I see no place to answer what you wrote (copied below) so I put it here.
I am aware that you aren’t “answering me” when you respond to my posts anyway, — you are defending your teachings.
Dorothy,
You continue, in spite of linguistic, cultural and historical evidence to the contrary, to assert that the word “finished” means “put an end to, no longer valid.” Apparently you refuse to consider the meaning of the word in the original language and accept the English translation with its nuances as if it were spoken by Yeshua. This approach provides religious certainty but it only proves that you have determined to believe what you want to believe regardless of the facts. There is little more to say. Your mind is made up. It just isn’t in alignment with any attempt to truly understand the text.
As I have said many, many times: the tradition is more powerful than the text.
Be blessed.
Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matthew 15:3
~ Behold, I AM YHWH, the God of all flesh. -Is anything too hard for Me? ~ (Jeremiah 32.27)
Jewish flesh or Gentile flesh? Is He the God of all flesh?
~ and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation…~ (Acts 17.26)
~ For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive ~ (1 Corinthians 15.22)
~ For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a Lamb without blemish or spot ~ (1 Peter 1.18,19)
~ The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price ~ (Revelations 22.17)
“In Hebraic thinking, when one accepts the teachings of Torah, it is said to “become a person’s flesh and blood.” Therefore, to fully accept the teachings of Yeshua, is to partake of His “flesh and blood” – which is the Torah. ”
– Copied from someone more articulate than myself.
Jesus teachings to clarify Torah are better than, but analogous to – the founding fathers coming to us today to clarify how we follow The Constitution.
–Jesus teachings to clarify Torah are better than, but analogous to – the founding fathers coming to us today to clarify how we follow The Constitution–
Gabe, this analogy is close but no cigar..- but it was Jesus who authored the Torah and witnessed the birth and life of Moses, Joshua, etc. He wrote the Book of books and made the very hill upon which the cross stood.
Yeshua HaMashiach was not a great leader nor a prophet- per se, He is “El Elyon”- incarnated in human flesh. The little baby born in Bethlehem was the ONE who birthed the universes.
Yes. You are right, of course. My comparison was more about the author clarifying His past work, rather than anything else.
I have been given two books recently, both of which seem to be written under the premise of how “revolutionary” Jesus was. “Jesus changed everything!!! No one had ever heard anything like that before!!” I hear similar statements at church,… and especially in the ‘Newer, Cooler Jesus’ movement. Many involved with the youth seem to latch onto this sentiment as an answer for the independent, rebellious teenage attitude. “Jesus colored outside the lines, thought outside the box, and if you think Che Guevara is cool – well – Jesus was the original counter-cultural symbol of rebellion.”
It’s branding really. They think – “Why is the church waning? We must have branded God wrong. God is not the harsh, angry, ready to deliver judgment God of your father. God is love, acceptance, tolerance,… and for those who think he’s too tame — he was a rebel!!”
However, Jesus was not inventing something new — His was a call to return to the original. His revolutionary teachings were not reinventing or replacing Torah — they were to help us rediscover the original intent.
@Dorothy….Jesus is the Scepter in the hand of God or we would die trying to approach Him. “I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, A scepter shall rise from Israel,….” Numbers 24: 17″…..this is a very interesting verse, especially since it is part of the Torah reading for last week when you wrote this. If you understand the setting of this scripture..it is Balaam speaking this ….remember the story? G-d used the ass to speak to Balaam because he refused to hear G-d’s warning about speaking curses against Israel.
Enough already!!!
Hi Robin,
I do know the context, and the story and who said it, and that God wouldn’t let him curse Israel. I haven’t ripped any pages from my Bible, I love and read it all the way from “In the beginning” to “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen.”
If you looked, you will see I was replying to Pam talking about Esther approaching the king because of the way she was dressed and what she ate for breakfast. (incidentally she was fasting) I was saying she could only apporach the king because he loved her and he had a Scepter in his hand that could be touched with all our life’s fears and agonies. And that is how we all can aproach the King and not die. We’re welcome in His throne room to make our requests known, and don’t have to fear.
The “enough already!” ref. to my comment, I don’t get, tho. (I could be reading it wrong and hope I am) but it seems you are angry with me because you disagree with me. I don’t get the “why” of that, tho, since Skip lets us state our beliefs on here and talk back and forth amongest ourselves. But its not required.
May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Hi Amber,
I too am just learning to cook, as my husband is a retired chef! I have found reading old cookbooks, Joy of Cooking especially the 75th annv. edition, Publix aprons (for insirpation only), and a host of jewish websites to learn from. My husband does give me lessons, the science and art of cookery. Trial and error makes for a great teacher. Learn to use spices, herbs and seasoning blends you make yourself. I am a self teaching person and find this fun and creative. Hope this helps. P.s. I will be trying Pam’s receipe, as I will be leaning how to make bread next!
Shalom,
Donna
@Jan
“JUST SAYING DON’T BLAME THE PIG FOR THEIR JOB GIVEN THEM…”
I’m trying Jan, I’m really trying…..It is amazing to me that there has been more replies to this particular TW about FOOD..than any other…..simply amazing…
Yes, amazing. But when I consider the Western commitment to personal “freedom,” perhaps it is most evident in our belief that we can eat whatever we want to. It is interesting that the very first commandment is also a dietary one. We haven’t come very far, have we? In our culture, no one likes to be told what they CANNOT eat (consider the recent uprising over Bloomberg’s restriction on sodas in New York). Our idea of freedom really amounts to such ridiculous resistance.
UNTIL PEOPLE COME TO “KNOW” & UNDERSTAND THEIR DAILY BREAD PERSONALLY – THEN WHAT IS BUILT IN TO ALL OF US BY GOD BEFORE WE WERE BORN [TO EAT THE SCROLL – THE DAILY BREAD, THE WORD MADE FLESH] OF COURSE IT IS GOING TO BE ABOUT EATING & THE FREEDOM TO DO SO AT THE HUMAN NATURE’S CHOICE.
AGAIN, THE COUNTERFEIT WILL ALWAYS TAKE OVER WHEN THE HOLE IS NOT FILLED WITH FATHER GOD/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT…
UNLESS ONE IS BORN AGAIN – THEIR EATING IS THEIR PLEASURE & THEIR FREEDOM – IT IS A PARADOX FOR SURE…
DO WE HATE THE PIG BECAUSE HE CLEANS FOR US & IS FILTHY IN SIDE OR DO WE HATE THE PIG BECAUSE HE REPRESENTS SOMETHING WE CAN’T HAVE THAT WE LIKE OR DO WE HATE THE PIG BECAUSE HE REPRESENTS OUR DISOBEDIENCE…
THIS WAS FOUND ON MY FACEBOOK WALL THIS MORNING & I JUST HAD TO SHARE IT HERE ON THIS WORD ABOUT THE PIG [IT SEEMS]…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=264647060306737&set=a.175741369197307.31096.175564625881648&type=1&theater
Amen!