CLEAR – SO FAR
The last day or two brought a flurry of comments, especially about the idea that I suggested regarding closing the door on those who stand in opposition to God’s ways. I am sure that in a one page Today’s Word I did not communicate perfectly what I had in mind. All to the good since as a result of my apparent cloudy communication a lot of people were energized to react and write. That means you thought about it. But just to make things clear from my side, let me articulate where I am and why I said what I did.
Since we are quite familiar with the Greek model of bullet points, I’ll use it.
1. After years of study, I came to the conclusion that many of the essential and critical doctrines that underlie Christian theology, all Christian theology – Catholic or Protestant – are in reality based on essentially Greek philosophical ideas, especially the Greek idea of perfection and person. This study is more or less encapsulated in my doctoral work, now published as God, Time and the Limits of Omniscience.
2. Since that time, I have realized (again with considerable study) that this Greek foundation of Christian thought is not an accident. I now am convinced that the early Church fathers. not to be confused with the apostles, were significantly influenced by two critical motivations: 1) to incorporate their Hellenistic philosophy into their new-found religion, now called Christianity; and 2) to separate the identity markers of this new religion from Judaism. To do this, the early fathers redefined a series of crucial cultural and religious markers, in particular, circumcision, dietary laws, Sabbath, atonement and the unity of God. These redefined concepts were much more in line with the current cultural practices (e.g., the consumption of pork and the worship on the day of the sun god) and were philosophically the children of the Greek thinkers, not the Jewish prophets. At this point in my life, I am convinced that a careful examination of both the history and the philosophy of the early centuries following the crucifixion confirm without doubt this trend, a trend that is still the majority opinion of Christians today, but which has now come under serious examination by important scholars.
3. For me, this implies that the apostolic writings are not set in an ante-Nicene environment but rather in a thoroughly Jewish understanding of God and the world. In other words, the New Testament is Jewish, not Christian as Christianity is understood after the middle of the 2nd century. The concepts, language, practices and beliefs of the apostles are Jewish. The only difference between the expressions of the apostles and the expressions of the rabbinic sages is the assertion that Yeshua is the expected Jewish Messiah. Otherwise, the theology, practices, rituals and expectations for the community fit completely within one or more of the sects of Judaism in the first century.
4. This is acknowledged by scholars on both sides of the issue – that is, both Jews and Christians. The real separation between Jews and Christians today is the separation caused by the assertions of the Church on two critical issues – the Trinity and the place of the Mosaic Torah. Even those Jews who acknowledge that Yeshua is thoroughly Jewish in his teaching and practice are unable to recognize him as the Messiah because the Church has adopted a replacement theology and claims that the Torah has been abolished. No Jew, either in the first century or today, could have or will accept these claims, and rightly so since they deny everything about God’s revelation in the Tanakh. I am convinced that the apostles and the followers of the Messiah in the first century did not embrace these two Christian claims. I believe that both Scripture (the full Bible) and history bear this out. The first century followers of Yeshua, whether Jew or Gentile, understood his Messianic claim within the context of Judaism and they practiced obedience to the Mosaic Torah as a sign of their acceptance of this claim. Examination of the New Testament documents in the culture of the first century absolutely confirms this.
5. What this means is that Christianity was formed as a competitive religion sometime between 135AD and 325AD. The essential tenets of this new religion were anti-Jewish in their inception, and later became anti-Semitic in their practice. This was in line with some of the prevailing intellectual culture of the later Roman Empire. This formation was not based on Scriptural claims although Scriptural claims were used as proof-texts for the shift. It was rather the product of political, social and intellectual motivations which we can now identify from the historical records. In particular, the replacement of Sabbath, abolishing the dietary laws and substituting a single baptism as the sign of the “new” covenant for the “old” circumcision were attempts to remove affiliation with Judaism and to redefine the faith of the apostles.
6. I am convinced that the true practice of faith in the God of Israel and the Messiah Yeshua requires, for Christians, a complete overhaul of their assumptions about Torah, the relationship to the Jews and the faith of the apostles, and for Jews, an examination not of the teaching of the Church concerning Jesus and Paul but of the record of their teachings found in the New Testament, stripped of the subsequent layers of Christian theology. With this platform, I believe that faithfulness to Yeshua includes Torah obedience. It is not optional, although it is obviously adapted to the culture of the believer, that is, it must find expression where and when we live since we no longer live in Israel in the first century. Nevertheless, Torah obedience is the objective, not because it provides a means of salvation (which has never been the case) but because it is the way that God wants His people to live in this world as a sign of His sovereignty over their lives and a demarcation of their difference. This also implies that Judaism today is not the same as the Judaism practiced by the first century followers of Yeshua, and we can trace the development of contemporary Judaism from the historical record just as surely and easily as we can trace the development of contemporary Christianity. In other words, I am not trying to become “Jewish.”
7. Therefore, I reject the artificial and theologically-motivated separation of “Law” and “Grace.” I cannot find such a separation in Scripture nor in the practice of followers of the Messiah until after the introduction of Greek philosophical categories and anti-Judaism. This means that I hold myself responsible for Torah observance as best as I am able, and that I encourage and teach such as a true reflection of the apostolic, Messianic faith. While I understand that most Christians are ignorant of the conditions, both theologically and historically, that led them to conclude the “Law” does not apply to them, this is a grave error and needs to be addressed and illuminated, both historically and theologically.
8. Ultimately, the choice is about identification. One may identify with Messianic believers of the first century by adopting the markers that they embraced. These include the Sabbath, the dietary regulations, circumcision and the rest of Torah as it applies to the gender, location and opportunities of a person’s life. Or one may identify with the Christian markers, that is, Sunday worship, the absence (or selective endorsement) of Torah, a “spiritual” circumcision and a theology based in Greek thought. Or one can become Jewish, adopting the path of the Talmud and its commentators over the last 2000 years. But this choice is not the same as the choices made by followers of Yeshua in the first century and one should be brave enough to acknowledge so. We can be Messianic, Jewish or we can be Christian, but we cannot be consciously a combination of these options.
9. I believe that this identification issue separates the entire world into Christian, Jew or Messianic. My desire is to embrace the identification markers that were consistent with followers of Yeshua. These are biblical as opposed to theological. I continue to examine the Scriptures to be sure that I am in alignment with these – and only these. I only want to do what God has revealed, but in order to do that I must be knowledgeable of the other “religious” cultures so that my faith isn’t based on mistakes and assumptions.
10. And I am learning in spite of mistakes.
Great post. Agree completely.
Thank you for creating a space for critical thought and debate, and for not being scared to discuss the sacred cows of religion. Your teachings, questions and guidance have had a greater impact on my faith and relationship with our Father than any other person. I’m so grateful that my mother introduced me to your ministry.
Thank you for all the hard work.
I echo the comments of Jaco: (Skip,) “Your teachings, questions and guidance have had a greater impact on my faith and relationship with our Father than any other person.” Thank you, Skip.
Ditto to Jaco and Jim’s accolade. Skip, you passed Watchman Nee as my favorite and most influential teacher some time ago, but I can’t but wonder who is the anointed mantle bearer-the Elisha- once you are caught up in the whirlwind and chariots of fire? Are there any here crying out: “May I receive a double portion of the prophetic spirit that energizes you?” I hope that “that” day is still long away, but I pray that YHWH raises up someone (even many) whose petition will be answered when they cry out; “My father, my father! The chariot and horsemen of Israel.” Thank you Skip, only eternity will bear the true record of the impact you have made upon my life, and the lives of so many in this community. May He honor the good seed you have sown with an abundant harvest. Shalom, Michael
Yes Jaco I absolutely agree with you – thanks Skip!
And as for you mom, Annemarie’s, faithful obedience: because of her one phone call, Skip is now blessing the whole of South Africa! Thank you Annamarie! What a awesome example of walking in faith, taking one step at a time back towards YHVH! –
And this is only the beginning – Baruch attah Adonai!
Hi Skip,
Struck by these terms in your great article:
“competitive religion”, “identification”, and “markers”.
Competition means someone wins or loses and it appears there has been a “war” of doctrines wrecking the planet for far too long. Humanity has suffered huge losses, but for YHWH and His tremendous mercy, we are not consumed.
Identification is a major issue and it appears with all the cliques and divisions, man looks to identify with something greater than aloneness, and yet, today, masses of people suffer from isolation and loneliness. From tattoos to you name it, people are looking to belong to a tribe somewhere. We need to recognize the true culture of what we align ourselves with.
Markers struck me the hardest. I thought of the Scripture relating to the “mark” of believers versus the mark of the beast and those who will be crushed because of his rebellion and attempt to usurp YHWH’s authority. Without knowing what the markers are, as Scripture reveals, we will have the same mindset as universalists who think everyone will make it to heaven, and will mistakenly think the antichrist is Messiah. Without these Biblically defined markers, our path is darkened and we grope the darkness in vanity looking for light. Thank you for fearlessly shining the Light of our Messiah. May YHWH’s face continue to shine upon you!
Skip, thank you for your courage and obedience, and thank you Father for the faith in which You have rewarded Him.
Skip,
Thanks once again for so clearly articulating the things I have been thinking/feeling. I was asked recently “Are you a Christian”…my answer was “I don’t think so” 😉
Sandy
Bingo! You found the answer.
I will try to give you this, tho I doubt Skip will let it stand.
http://www.cyshift.com/hebrew_roots.html
I took a quick look the the “Cult of Hebrew Roots” article. Once again, I am amazed at the complete lack of historical awareness. ANYONE, and I mean exactly that, who bothers to examine what happened between 70 AD and 250 AD will see that the movement from the Messianic Jewish community to the Christian church was fueled by social, political and cultural pressures, not by exegesis or the apostles. That is not to say that there were not many “believers” who devotedly and sincerely followed Yeshua HaMashiach, but history shows that these believers CONTINUED to practice their faith within a Jewish cultural format. It wasn’t until after 135 AD that the separation of Messianic believers from other Jewish sects began to push the chasm on the Jewish side. Gentiles who were previously influenced by Greek philosophy used this opportunity to drive the wedge further and by the time of Constantine successfully employed the power of the government to stamp out the Messianic movement. The history is all there, but theology trumps history and those who wish to live without rules prefer the RULE OF GRACE over the revelation of God.
Skip,
I agree with your assessment concerning the link given above. When one starts from the premise that one is delievered from the bondage of law to the freedom of grace, there will be “seeming” verses to prove that point. But what is missing from this link is a true engagement with the historical period and allowing these “seeming” verses to speak from there own milieu.
Fear-mongering from this site and other sites of like nature are atrocious and unfounded. Those who have embraced the beauty of the King’s torah are given the status of cultic! When will the nonsense end?! I long for the day when people from sites like this will have humble and hungry hearts to really wrestle with the evidence and allow others to do the same.
YHWH is King!
The ‘freedom’ we have in grace is the permission we have to repent after we see our error.
Repentance is the gift we find in the box labeled ‘Grace’. Non believers are not permitted to open the box, nor would they believe they have need to.
That’s how i see it, anyway.
So, where do you stand, Dorothy, in regard to the above ten bullet points Skip delineated?
I also read the article. I find myself in agreement with Skip regarding your article.
So, are you advocating this article as viable, as in opposition to it or just as a reference to the thinking that is out there on these matters?
Skiip, thank you very much for this clarification. I am only sadden because here in my country we don’t have a community that follows these teachings. I will gladly appreciate and eager to prepare a conference here in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Just set the time and give me you approval and I will begin the movement for you to come to my country.
Blessings.
I would LOVE to come back to the DR, having been absent for many years. I used to have a house in Sosua. So, here’s what needs to happen. You must contact Rosanne (rosannemoen@mac.com) and make the arrangements. She has the calendar. Then I will come to you and we will have a wonderful time sharing the good news with you and your group.
Skip,
Grace & Peace from Eastern Washington.
What do I do with, or how do I take Galatians chapters two and three?
Rick
You must read Galatians for what it is – a debate with those who claim that we must become Jewish (by a well-known first century process) in order to worship YHWH. Read Mark Nanos on this – a MUST read if you are to escape from the dominance of replacement thinking that governs most Christian exegesis of Galatians.
Skip,
Briefly, while I’m getting a quick bite to eat, I’m not an adherent to “Replacement Theology,” nor am I Catholic or Reformed Protestant. Anyone living after 1919 should realize that Israel is back in their land, and the time for Jesus Christ’s return is near. Replacement Theology is of no value to me, but I am very interested in your views. I think I’ve missed something here, and I’ll first need to re-read your post before I go any further :o) I admit I jumped to the conclusion that one can become closer to YHWH if they adhere to Jewish customs. This made me think of those passages in Galatians.
Thanks
Rick
Rick,
I don’t know if you have read Mark Nanos, but he has a really good book on Galatians that you might enjoy. It’s called the Galatians debate..Here’s a link:
http://www.amazon.com/Galatians-Debate-The-Contemporary-Interpretation/dp/0801047277/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368559021&sr=8-1&keywords=mark+nanos%2C+galatians
Skip,
I thank you for the clear, concise summary of what you have been teaching. This article is a “keeper.” I also enjoyed last Thursday evening in Tucson, AZ. Belatedly, I welcome you to Tucson and hope you will be able to return. Do not stop your work, your study and sharing of your learning with the community and all who read and learn from you.
I could cry.
I don’t have a PhD and i haven’t studied as extensively as you, by any means.
But i have come to the same conclusions. It cost me everything.
No, it didn’t cost you everything. It cost you what doesn’t matter. See Paul.
oohhh!! well said!!!
I HATE it that I didn’t get to come to Phoenix. I am having part of my left lung removed next week but I will be all recovered by the time you come to Kansas City in July!
Sandy
Thank you.
I don’t know what to say, my life is a shambles and about the ONLY thing i’m sure of is that i KNOW it’s not from YHVH. I’m not as devastated as i was a while ago but i’m still (frightfully) unemployed and sad. And angry.
People who knew me in my ‘old’ life believe the mess i’m in is because i deserve it. It’s surreal.
Thank you so much for this concise article. And thank you also for all of the follow up comments from the community. We have all been blessed with this clarity. Praise God!
What a wonderful, concise and CLEAR explanation of what we need to study/embrace and make an intelligent decision so that we will be ready when the Master returns!
Skip,
Thank you. I agree completely. I wish I could have articulate it as accurately and succinctly.
Skip,
Well said. Your conclusions on the history of Christianity are well documented. None of what you said on the ante-Nicean “fathers'” motivation or methods can be discounted by Christian scholars. What is so revealing is that knowing the same history, they continue to promote the theology they know was built upon such perversion. The fault for the massive deception now lies at the feet of those who continue to perpetuate the myths: Christian professors and pastors.
After 15 years teaching a large adult Sunday School class at a large Baptist Church I was called into the “Pastor’s Study” to a theological inquiry on my teaching on the Sabbath. When I offered my biblical defense, I was simply told by a well-known Baptist leader: “Well, all that may be true [about the Sabbath], but how could we possibly do that here?”
I resigned that week, and never looked back. When convenience and maintaining the business that is “church” trumps the truth of Scripture, it is time to declare “ichabod” and leave.
Shalom Alecheim!
Rick,
Coming from a SBC background most of my ‘christian’ life, I can relate strongly with your comments. In the search for truth among those that appear to profess the same thing, one enters a strange world that begins emerging when you wonder out side the boundary lines in your search. The atmosphere moves from one of lifting things up to look under it, moving things to look at it from another angle, making statements that differ from those in the approved ‘what we believe’ lists to being at arms length, the brows of the eyes looking a bit lower at you, less ‘fellowship’ at Wednesday night dinners, and very polite acknowledgments of your presence. The masses move away, slowly, subtly, but surely.
On the other hand, the handful of others searching a little more deeply for truths seem to find you and start asking questions, too. They are cautious but embracing. Questioning but also energetic to learn and dig for things that aren’t served on a silver platter. They tend to be hungry and on their toes ready to devour any morsel of truth nugget they can dig up.
My old friends have left. They left, not me. Their number was larger then. My circle of friends is smaller now, but they remain around the events of my life regularly.
It all had to do with many of the positions discussed on this blog. This CLEAR – SO FAR offering has been one of the clearest and most succinct explanation regarding this topic. It is much appreciated.
I stepped out of the box. Nobody came looking for me.
That tells me a LOT!
Boy can I relate to this. Of all the churches I have been in, the SBC had been the most welcoming and friendly of all. The dinners and opportunities for social interactions are amazing BUT, when we started asking questions things began to change.
I spent most of my life completely outside of Y-H and anything remotely pleasing to Him. I am 48 now and have only in the last 3 years really begun to have my eyes and ears opened. I find I have more questions all the time but what really just amazes me is how hijacked the gospel has been!
As Skip touches on above, most of what we know as modern Christianity is FAR from the truth that Jesus taught or as revealed in Torah.
Now what is exciting for me is the number of people who are beginning to question these Christian beliefs and are seeking answers. We as a nation have a long ways to go but it has to begin somewhere.
That ole box was was to confining anyhow! No one came looking for us either but Y-H knows his people. Count on it.
Amen, Dawn. 🙂
I’m working on walking in a new box. It’s name is Torah. It’s yoke is easy. It’s burden is light. However, it open the door to life. I choose to walk in it.
And the more I do it, the sweeter it tastes. The dust on me from my Rabbi leading in front is welcome.
Agreed and I have to say that my rabbi’s dust is ever so much better than the dust I regularly wear here on the farm!!
Little rural humor there 🙂
Congratulations Rick! That was a brave thing to do, but I ‘ll bet Yeshua smiled!
Very well said. I agree completely.
Dear Skip my question is how can all your readers and followers didn´t realize the way you think and teach? in my case that´s why I read and follow you, thanks for all¡¡¡
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Well said Skip! 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 takes on new light when one is able to surrender the need to justify Christianity! When my husband and I became Torah observant and fully Spirit filled about 15 years ago. When we did we were viciously attacked by our church of 20 years. The primary objection was to our observing the Sabbath. They said we were going under the law, becoming JEWS and denying Jesus! Their words and actions against us were brutal. One day we received a phone call from someone that we considered to be as close to us as any family member. She and I were ministry leaders together. We didn’t realize that her oh so sweet phone call was really an inquisition that would lead to our expulsion from our church home. At the close of our conversation she accused us of following a different Jesus. I personally felt like she had kicked me in the gut. I closed my eyes that night crying out to my Father. I wanted to know Him more and to serve Him in Spirit AND Truth. With all my being I only wanted to walk in His Way. When I arose the next morning everything was crystal clear. We WERE following a different Jesus, His Name is Yahshua and we weren’t the ones in trouble. Our friend and our church and all of Christianity were in ones in apostasy. The mystery of lawlessness had a 2000 year dominion over their hearts and minds. Their Jesus exists in the spirit of anti messiah! With joy we declare now that we do not believe in Jesus. We serve Yahshua, the only begotten of the Father, and the Holy One of Israel. We choose life and live in the love that is defined in 2John. We obey Him because we love Him. And we are able to love because He first loved us. Yahshua is the first, last, in the beginning and the end. There is no other. We reject Judaism because they say they are Jews but are not. They too have been deceived by religion and apostasy. We are free to walk in the fullness of faith that Yahshua declared He came to give us in Matthew 5:17…
We are neither Christian (Greek) nor Jew. Halleluyah! The Truth allows us to become NEWMAN even before there is new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem! How awesome is that! We can live in the diaspora yet live in The Kingdom that is everlasting. This is the freedom that the Lamb of YAH gives.
I am personally so glad that your comments have stirred the hearts of so many folks. They should understand that they stand in the valley of discussion. Jeremiah 29:11-14 should encourage them.
For any one familiar with the character Auntie Mame portrayed on stage and in musical theater, I offer a quote.
“Open a new window, open a new door…..life is a banquet and some poor suckers are starving to death”
Our Creator, our Salvation invites us to partake of the marriage supper of the Lamb. Unfortunately many will choose to suckle at the breast of pagan mothers, ie;false religion. The remnant of Israel will dine on the mature matter, and from the true Zion will the Law go forth. HalleluYAH!!!
Does the wild branch ever become….there has to be a better destination for us poor gentiles.
I am not really worried about it for myself, but that doesn’t seem like a very desirable invitation for someone seeking to be fully restored. This is reminding me of another site where they differintiate between the Bride and the 10 virgins at the gate. They identify all 10 virgins as gentiles just hoping to get into the wedding as guests only, never even a chance at the bride spot. It’s the Who’s Who in the kingdom that is the problem with both sides, while each saying they are the priesthood and yet they petition the blood out more like our modern day Obamacare.
I offer my humble thanks as well. You have a gift with communicating and I am grateful to have found this site and your teaching. I would like to have opportunity to “sit at your feet” but I guess the site will have to do!
I have growing pains regularly and I have come to appreciate them.
I can’t remember if I’ve mentioned it already, but my opportunities for socializing are limited as I am extremely sensitive to fragrances, exhausts, paints, etc. This site, and the conversation on it, has been a God-send, literally, for me. My goal is to contribute something worthwhile, too. I’m thinking that this whole building, this community, is built on Yeshua, the Messiah (1 Cor. 3:11). He is the Word. He is the fullness of ALL the words of God. This is how Torah is part and parcel of the foundation. I wonder…the gold, the silver, the wood, etc., with which we build…does this refer to HOW we use the words of God in our construction? Keep up the good work, everybody!
Wow! That was awesome! Now that’s something to nail on the church door!
Skip, A true gift has been imparted to you, to make plain the word of YHVH is so needed in these days of wonder. Yeshua is truly building His church today, drawing us into a covenant relationship, whereby to love Him, is to love His Torah. How can we read Psalm 119 and ignore the plain text of rejoicing at His precepts and laws. Thnx you for your deligence. Shalom Simon
Hi Skip,
I read your “Clear – So Far” very early this morning and found it very precisely stated
Can’t say that I disagreed with any of your points, but coming back to it now, some things aren’t so clear
For example, I found the following information online:
Q: Do Catholics believe in the Old Testament?
A: Catholicism asserts that both the Old and New Testaments are religiously binding. It is important to note, however, that the Second Covenant provided in the New Testament serves to override the applicability of many Old Testament Laws.
THESIS:
So it seems to me that we start with Judaism and Judaism was and is two things
– A socio-economic state apparatus with political interests
– A religion with priests and/or rabbis and prophets
ANTITHESIS:
And then, along comes this revolutionary leader, whom we call Jesus Christ or Yeshua
– The Son of Mary
– The Son of Man
– The Son of God
Of course, Yeshua could be called the “Hero with a Thousand Faces” (eg., Jim Carey in the “Yes Man”)
In any case, Jesus does not quite fit in with the Jewish “establishment” of his time
And he pays very little attention to Gentiles, eg, the poor little old “puppy” (gentile woman)
Rather Jesus sees himself as the leader of the Jews, their Messiah
And then along comes Paul who “bridges the Gap” with the Gentiles
And IMO Paul, intentionally or unintentionally, “opens the door” to the New Religion
A “universal” religion that becomes the “glue” that binds the new universal “state apparatus”
The Holy Roman Empire
But then I’m certainly no expert on this subject
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopNAI8Pefg
Famous Speeches: A Few Good Men
BTW if you haven’t watched Jack Nicholson in the link to “A Few Good Men” above, you should
Jack plays Col. Nathan R. Jessup who appears to be the anti-hero
But remember that Nathan (Hebrew: נתן הנביא; fl. c. 1000 BC) is a character in the Hebrew Bible
According to 2 Samuel, Nathan was a court prophet who lived in the time of King David.
And announced to David the covenant God was making with him (2 Samuel 7)
And came to David to reprimand him over his committing adultery with Bathsheba
And, in the movie, Nathan Jessup might also be a play on the name of Jesus (Yeshua)
Whose character most definitely “one up’s” everyone else in the court of Law
“And then along comes Paul who “bridges the Gap” with the Gentiles
And IMO Paul, intentionally or unintentionally, “opens the door” to the New Religion”
Please bear with me while I quote myself above ….
So the question that has always bothered me is how do we get from Jesus and the Jews
To the theology of the Roman Catholic Church, the basics of which I learned in the 6th grade
From the Nuns
On the one hand, for example, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
Is not a Jewish concept as far as I know, but it is a very powerful, theological, concept IMO
Especially when combined with its Rabbinical counterpart, the so called “3 Oms”
The Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence of God
Skip can correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that the Jewish priests would have been
Less inclined to incorporate these “Greek” Talmudic concepts into Catholicism than the Rabbis
In any case, it seems to me that the Catholics would not have created this theology at all
If it did not already exist in the Talmud
And the Catholics did not create this theology from “whole cloth”
Okay….
I know I’m way behind on all this…haven’t even been able to identify the post to which you refer, Skip, at the beginning of this entry…the one that started the flurry of communication. Would appreciate knowing the title of that entry so I can at least catch up with that.
I get and totally agree with much of what you have said in this article, at least to the extent that I understand it and its implications. I understand the idea that we must choose which stream to identify with, whether Christian, Jewish, or Messianic. I have heard a fair amount about the pagan roots of many Christian practices, and I abhor that. That being said, I have the following questions (and probably many more following behind them that I have not even conceived of yet!)
1) What is the means of salvation? Is it by grace alone through faith in Yeshua?
2) Beyond seeking to bless God, to acknowledge and live according to His commands because we love Him, what is the significance of Torah observance? As you say, it is not a means to salvation, so what is it?
3) Would you say that all three of these identifications are “saving faiths” and on what basis?
4) IF they all are saving faiths, then can’t we all seek God’s truth, seek to live in the truth as He has revealed it to us, share with friends, but then leave it to their own discernment and divine inspiration to determine the way they should go.
I know I’m missing a lot…apologies to all you experts out there. I went with you to Israel, then came home feeling like I wanted to live a Torah-observant life in order to bless the God who had blessed me so abundantly. What a fire-storm I faced with my Christian friends!! That would have been okay, but in the end I found myself asking, “is Torah observance a salvation issue?” According to my understanding, it is not, and it certainly became an impediment to my sharing the good news of Yeshua with Gentile friends and fellowshipping with Christians. While I continued to quietly observe Torah myself, I stopped sharing about it, realizing it created a wedge between me and my brothers and sisters that I felt had no good purpose.
We don’t have to become Jews to be saved. What IS essential for salvation is that we embrace the person of Yeshua, His life, death and resurrection and believe on Him for the forgiveness of our sins, right? If this is the case, then why so much fighting? No one’s doctrine and practice is perfect…no not one, so can’t we all just get along?
Thanks to all who can provide a gentle answer. I’m kind of sick of being beaten up by folks on either side. I know in this life we will have persecution, but I don’t think God intended this to come from our own family!!
Hello Whitney. Long time since I have seen you here.
Let me answer a bit of these.
The TW that started it all was called “Nasty Evangelism”.
The means of salvation is grace, has always been grace, will always be grace – from Adam to the end of the age.
The significance of Torah – VERY BRIEFLY – is that it is God’s instructions for living here on the planet AFTER you have been grafted into the Kingdom. It is the constitution of the government of God, the expectations of God for His citizens and the actions that set us apart from others who do not identify with the God of Israel.
I am not so sure that all THREE are “saving” faiths. They call claim that, of course, but ask yourself which are aligned with the full purposes of God and express their faithful loyalty to Him, acknowledging His Son and practicing faithful obedience to His will. I do NOT mean to say that God cannot save anyone He wishes to no matter what their theology or circumstances. I am only saying that it seems to me the biblical basis of hesed in its fullest sense is found in only one.
I agree with your 4th point, but it doesn’t depend on whether or not they are all “saving” faiths. The truth is that it depends entirely on God. I am not called to save anyone. I am only called to live in obedience as best I can according to the best knowledge that I have and search the Scriptures to find out the rest.
Yes, what is essential is that we embrace the Messiah as we know Him, but one we have done so, salvation is only the INVITATION to enter, not the end of the game. I realize that your experience was genuinely life-changing and caused a fire-storm of criticism, but it is the truth and the truth is hard to leave behind in order to “keep the peace.” My considerable study of this issue leads me to believe that most of the objections and criticism comes from uninformed historical perspectives, relying mostly on hear-say (what the preacher said), and an ignorance of the Jewish character of Yeshua and the apostles. But peeling back the onion brings lots of tears and lots of protests. I wish I could offer more. Be encouraged. There are many of us. Come to one of the seminars and met the rest.
As for “family,” God might not have intended it, but Yeshua does warn about it.
Hi Skip , I missed this one , TW Nasty Evangelism, could you please resend
thanks
daniel (south africa)
Please go to the web site and retrieve it.
skipmoen.com
Tried with no success,Please nominate the date it was posted, thanks Daniel
https://skipmoen.com/2013/05/10/unsociable-etiquette/
Skip, is your capitalization of “invitation” a reference to the divine obligation/divine invitation paradigm?
I just read Boaz Michael’s Tent of David and was wondering what you thought of his assertion that messianic Gentiles should go back to church and be an influence.
I am considering it.
It also brings to mind people who experienced charismatic renewal in past decades who were told to bloom where they were planted. That didn’t work out too well in many churches.
I didn’t deliberately try to connect “invitation” to any known paradigm. I just wanted to make it BOLD so that people would realize that identification with a culture, any culture, is a choice, even if you are born into it. ANd as far as Boaz in concerned, while I understand his motivation, I just don’t see how it is possible for the majority to continue to worship among congregations whose very existence is built on assumptions antithetical to the Tanakh and the apostolic writings. More on this is coming. I realize that some will be called to such a task just as others are called to spread light among the world, but in my experience, being a light within the Church is far more difficult since most of the people who attend churches have closed minds on these subjects. Tradition trumps text over and over, without them even knowing it, while they refuse to examine even their own history. A lot more on this is coming. Fellowship is a matter of gathering with those who desire the truth and are actively seeking it with all their hearts. While I believe that most within the church are simply ignorant of both history and theology, I also find that most (as the gentleman in South Africa said) “are comfortable with what they believe.” There is extreme resistance and even hostility to any way except the way of their tradition. In this sense, Christianity is probably the most powerful recruiting machine ever devised. It is a closed, circular paradigm that justifies itself by rewriting its own origins. Those who decide that God is calling them to speak within that paradigm will need every ounce of support and our constant prayers.
Thank you Skip. I’m glad that you are speaking so directly on issues.
Because my wife is not fully on-board with these things I am tending to think that my place is in a church. I’m not sure of that yet. I’ve seen the “let’s work from within and try to help foster change” approach end up poorly almost 100% of the time.
Boaz says that you cannot go into the project he espouses with the “I’m here to bring change” attitude. My experience is that no matter how hard you try and tamp that down it will come through and people will accuse you of all sorts of things. It can get real personal and real nasty.
I’m looking forward to your future writings on these subjects.
One more thing: I’ve been thinking about the motivation behind sending us all back to churches. You may want to steer clear of commenting on this since you are a public figure and need to be able to interact with people.
So far, my opinion on motivation is: to try and please and create favor with non-messianic Judaism by telling what he calls messianic gentiles to go back to their own religion (my words not his). He insists that we are not causing the “jealousy” to which Paul refers but rather anger. I think jealousy is pretty closely related to fear (of assimilation) — and anger (like praying with a tallit) are ours… go away.
I thought it was an interesting book and worthy of reflection. I will say publicly that I found some of his statements condescending at best.
Hi Daniel, I think I share many of the same sentiments as you do with regards to this issue.
On another subject for interest sake, with regards to Paul’s statement of “jealousy”. I’m currently reading Mark Nanos’ “The Mystery of Romans”. He makes a very interesting and important point with regards to Paul’s statements. Here is an extract:
“It is important to note that it is not the salvation of the gentiles per se, but “his [Paul] ministry” that he magnifies and expects to provoke some of his “fellow countrymen” to jealousy – the bringing of the gentiles to “obedience of faith” as they recognise Israel’s Christ as the Savior of the world. Strangely, interpreters assume that that Paul expects Jews to be jealous of the salvation of gentiles…
…In spite of the common assumption, Paul does not say that Jews will be jealous of gentiles being saved… He explicitly says it is his ministry that will be the cause of jealousy of some of them, which is a very different point.”
– The Mystery of Romans, pp. 248 – 249
If Nanos’ reading of the text and interpretation thereof is correct (and I think it is) it does change the way we should understand Paul’s statements with regards to “provoking the Jews to jealousy”, which was not something we were ever suppose to do.
Anyway, I just thought you might find it interesting.
Bob Gorelik notes that jealousy is “What you have is really mine” whereas envy is “What you have is yours but I want it anyway.” How can we make the non-Messianic Jews jealous if what we have was never theirs?
Excellent post, Skip. Your point: “I believe that this identification issue separates the entire world into Christian, Jew or Messianic.”
I think there is another unnamed group that is neither of the three: The people who have joined themselves to YHWH as in Isaiah 56:1-10, keep His Torah, and who believe that the role of Messiah (to restore the lost inheritances – Is 49:8) has NOT been fulfilled yet.
If that role has been fulfilled, the lion will lie with the lamb. I would love for you to share your opinion with us on ‘salvation’ and ‘messiah’ in a Hebraic interpretation as these terms have been used throughout the Tanakh. As I read the Tanakh, Moses, Saul, Cyrus, etc were messiahs and in Isaiah 43:11 YHWH says there is no ‘savior’ but Him. So, we have to investigate the terms ‘salvation’ and ‘messiah’ in context to understand.
If Yeshua came as the prophet of Deut 18, then so did Joshua, Isaiah, Jeremiah, (Jer 1:9) etc. YHWH put His Word into their mouths and we were supposed to listen to all of them.
As we continue on our path and quest for more understanding, we need to examine the roles of Shiloh, Shepherd, Restorer and in this context ask ourselves – why do we call Yeshua ‘Messiah’. I am only relating to the term ‘Messiah’ in its Hebraic context. (I am not referring to anything else that people believe Yeshua achieved on the earth)
Please share your thoughts on these terms and concepts – perhaps in a future TW?
I agree that many in the context of Hebraic thought came as “messiahs,” that is, anointed ones called by God. The difference is the resurrection. That is the real question – and answer. But even the sages recognize that there are two Messiahs in the context of the anticipated second prophet. The first is Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant of Isaiah. The second is Messiah ben David, the conquering king. Messianic followers see these two roles in the same person, Yeshua. They are simply temporal separate. Most Jews see these two roles are separate entities or persons. Your comment about the lion and the lamb is an expression of the coming Millennial Age which is why it has not happened yet.
I see the concept of “Messiah” as referred to in the Prophets also as defined in the Millennial Age – not before. So when “Messiah” will reign, the lion will lie with the lamb. I don’t deny that Yeshua came for a specific purpose, but not for the role of Messiah — yet.
I appreciate your patience and firm stand in all your TW’s, Skip, and understand where you are coming from-
to draw a line of distinction between mindsets and cultures-Hebraic and Greek, and that has been your focus from the start, a Word-A-Day from the Greek or Hebraic word, to bring folks to a better understanding of the Scriptures, and NOT as Christianity interprets them creating a stumbling block to many precious believers.
BUT, ABBA YHWH is continuously drawing many out of that “box”. Amein!
Today’s Word has blessed so many, including myself, my family and my friends around the world.
There is none other site like this one. The community here is so vibrant. HalleluYAH!
Skip, you are a challenge to many here, and that is positive, as many will have come to the valley of decision of what they have been believing all these while.
Be encouraged. Shalom!
Jaco: I have that book but haven’t read it cover to cover. I’m going to dig it out and do just that.
Skip: I want to see if I follow:
“How can we make the non-Messianic Jews jealous if what we have was never theirs?”
Are you referring to the non-authentic practices, theology, etc. of traditional Christianity?
BTW: I don’t have a reply function for you or Jaco for that reply string.
Yes, why should they be jealous if what we offer is considered pagan and forbidden. For example, if you live on a pig farm and your house is dirty and you invite addicts to dinner, why would I want that kind of life? I am not jealous of you because I have never had, nor do I want, what you have. But if you live in harmony with what I claim is God’s gift to me (Torah) and you serve God in the same why that I do, and you follow a man who meets the requirements of the Messiah that I am looking for, and your life demonstrates that God is blessing you, THEN you have something God promised to me and I will want it back.
Skip,
God’s grace allowed my life’s travels that finally reached Him to be as diverse as I suspect is the case
with most who follow this blog.
I left Catholicism, wandered, pondered, and drifted until a Christian mystic author caught my
attention. His reliance on the scriptures got me into the Word, and in due time YHWH revealed
Himself to me. And He continues to do so daily!
Your TW blog continues my expansion albeit with some advisible head scratching.
Here’s my bewilderment. As the Word often warns about “deception” and “perversion”, even
among the “elect”, how would and why would the Lord allow such world-wide and centuries-long
endurance of the ignorance and confusion being discussed here today?
Is this correction to be in His hands, or is He expecting us to lead the difficult charge?
Jesus said in JN 14: 12-14 those of faith in Him would do what He was doing . . . and even
greater.
Your thoughts.
Elijah claimed to be the only one. God had to remind Him that he was not. As far as I can see, there are small pockets of followers all over the globe who are questioning the standard answers. These include men and women of considerable scholarship, but are generally just ordinary people who know something isn’t right. How long did it take Israel to realize there was no profit in false gods. A little over 1000 years. How long did it take for Judaism to be prepared to receive the coming of Messiah ben Joseph. About 4000 years. Seems to me that God is rarely in a hurry and that men are mostly responsible for the lies they perpetrate and believe. That it has taken about 2000 years for some of us to realize that our own history doesn’t support what we claim seems about right in God’s timing.
Amein to that!
Thank you for a great (and timely) blog. I love your tenth point, because to me it shows a man with a humble spirit and teachable character … as Paul said in 1 Cor. 13:9,10 & 12, “we know in part … and see in a mirror, dimly – until the fullness/perfect has come.”
Skip, I see myself as a ‘gentile’ messianic believer (Romans 11:17 & Isaiah 56:3-5) and find peace and comfort in what is written/prescribed in Acts 15:19,20,28 & 29 and 21:25 … “for it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you (the gentile believers) no greater burden than these necessary things …” No circumcision is prescribed, nor any dietary laws apart from ‘food’ offered to idols, strangled, or with its blood. How do you ‘reconcile’ these markers with your ‘messianic markers’? Surely, given the context (and my understanding) of mentioned Scripture, the Torah-prescribed (Books of Moses) circumcision and dietary law ‘markers’ doesn’t apply to us (as gentile believers) anymore … nor does the non-adherence thereof disqualify us from being called Messianic or followers of YHWSWA Messiah? Your thoughts? Shalom.
I have written a great deal about the Jerusalem council meeting that you reference. Please see material on the web site. IN CONTEXT, your exegesis is typical but inadequate. It doesn’t account for Paul’s own teaching and life choices found in Acts and his letters. I would highly recommend Mark Nanos work and Tim Hegg. Bob Gorelik too. Lots of people are working on this and no longer accept the standard interpretation of Acts 15
Skip,
You are such a blessing to so many. Thank you for your investment in digging deep to share with so many hungry believers. This post was music to my ears–I agree with your points and almost got up and danced as I read each (Greek) bullet point.
I struggle with what to do with it all because it’s so counter-cultural and so unknown by almost all “Christians” I know. I so often feel like a lone ranger in my thoughts and beliefs. But once God opens your eyes, there is really no turning back. I describe my path of revelation as discovering another “portal” to read/understand the biblical text and to understand YHWH and Jesus Christ in a deeper way. Once I entered this new “portal” (which contextualizes the first-century Hebraic world), the old door completely lost its flavor because it was merely artificially flavored.
I’d like to ask for further clarification on a statement in your post about how you specifically adhere to Torah obedience in your life, while adapted to our current culture (referencing statement below):
“I believe that faithfulness to Yeshua includes Torah obedience. It is not optional, although it is obviously adapted to the culture of the believer, that is, it must find expression where and when we live since we no longer live in Israel in the first century.”
In your life, how do you remain Torah observant? How does the Torah “find expression” in your and your family’s life, specifically?
YHWH’s blessings, blessings, blessings sent to you from Texas!
Gaynor
I am not ignoring your question, which will be the subject of my book (still in process), but I am also extremely busy right now getting ready for a lecture series on Greek culture and I am in Barcelona, so you might have to wait awhile for this.