Paul and Jerusalem
“But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law, and that is written by the Prophets; Acts 24:14 NASB
Sect – A short time ago I gave a lecture in Jerusalem about the formation of the Christian religion. In that lecture, I argued that contemporary historical scholarship no longer supports the idea that Christianity grew out of the Jewish understanding of Scripture. I argued that Christianity is essentially a new religious construction built on an implicit anti-Semitism and that historical Christian theology has had to reinterpret the Bible according to its presupposed paradigm in order to establish its own anti-Jewish identity. I offered the work of Gager, Young, Reuther, Stendahl, Becker, Reed, Gaston, Frankfurter and Fredricksen for support of this significant shift. But I could have offered Paul himself.
Notice what Paul claims in one of the final defenses of his career. He first notes that the movement with which he is associated is called a sect (hairesis). You might think we should translate this as “a heresy” of Judaism, in which case you could claim that Christianity would have been considered a Jewish heresy. But hairesis comes from haireo, “to win, to comprehend, to select,” so the implication is not something rejected as unorthodox but rather as something chosen. In other words, Paul admits that he has chosen this particular way of understanding the Law and the Prophets, but he forcefully asserts that this particular understanding is not unorthodox. In fact, he claims that he continues to serve the ancestral God in every way, including following everything in accordance with Torah. It is significant that he includes “the Law and the Prophets” because in this way he indicates all of the commandments of the Hebrew Bible. The bottom line: Paul does not think of himself as anything but Jewish, right down to the mitzvot!
With this in mind, we should consider the comments of current historians.
[On the idea that Christianity parted company with Judaism in the early centuries:] “. . . most scholars now reject its major presupposition: ‘the equation of rabbinic Judaism and proto-Christianity with ‘Judaism’ and ‘Christianity’ in a global sense.”[1] As Gager points out, the word “religion” did not exist prior to the invention of Christianity. In the first century, Jewish faith was considered a “way of life” or a philosophy, not a religion.
[On prior historical accounts:] 19th and 20th Century Protestant theologians characterized Judaism as “a legalistic religion purportedly devoid of spiritual value and lacking in any attraction for non-Jews.”[2] This caricature is completely false as demonstrated by the historical record.
The article Beyond “Jewish Christianity” suggests that certain extra-biblical texts of the 2nd and 3rd Centuries shed doubt on the existence of an historically distinct “Christianity” already in the second and third centuries, while also exposing the profound inadequacy of the traditional view of “Jewish Christianity” as a singular and self-contained phenomenon.[3] The label, “Jewish Christian” is an oxymoron. This person did not exist before the Church used the term.
Paula Fredricksen, in What Parting of the Ways?, argues that the model of the parting of Judaism and Christianity from the New Testament period onward (the usual understanding of the division between Judaism and Christianity) “is to misconstrue the social and intellectual history of Judaism, of Christianity, and of majority Mediterranean culture at least up through the seventh century, and possibly beyond.”[4] This is particularly important since it hints at the idea that the Jewish way of life was still practiced by Messianic followers until the rise of Islam.
There is considerably more. The bottom line seems to be this: The Jewish way of life (not Judaism as a religion) was an active, vibrant choice for all people of the Mediterranean world (Roman Empire) through the 6th Century. As such, it was in competition with the newly-created Christianity from the 2nd Century and it challenged the doctrine of Christian triumphalism. Therefore, Christian theologians began a systematic attempt to caricature Jews as non-Roman and thus unacceptable in distinction from Christians who accommodated certain elements of Roman culture in order to be more attractive. We discover that biblically based followers of Yeshua as the Messiah continued to practice The Way as a Jewish sect until the 7th Century. The only parting of the ways was the deliberate attempt of early Church Gentile leaders to create this parting as an element of their own self-identity. Followers of the Way never left the Jewish code of conduct as a way of living.
What does this mean for our appreciation of our own beliefs? Perhaps we need one more quotation:
“A critical question raised is the extent to which our judgments on these issues are formed more by hindsight than by historical data. With the benefits of hindsight, we see that certain developments and corollaries were inevitable; but were they so at the time?”[5]
Topical Index: Christianity, the Way, sect, hairesis, Acts 24:14
[1] Becker and Reed, The Ways That Never Parted, p. 19
[2] Becker and Reed, The Ways That Never Parted, p. 7
[3] see Becker and Reed, The Ways That Never Parted, p. 27
[4] Becker and Reed, The Ways That Never Parted, p. 38
[5] Dunn, Jews and Christians, p. 368 in Becker and Reed, The Ways That Never Parted, p. 18, fn. 59.
Good morning,
Have you read Dr. Anders Runesson’s (McMaster University) essay “Inventing Christian Identity: Paul, Ignatius, Theodosius I”? I think he makes some interesting comments. Here is the link:
http://jewishstudies.eteacherbiblical.com/2013/06/inventing-christian-identity-paul-ignatius-theodosius-i/
Shabat Shalom!
That is a great article indeed. You might also like Mark Nanos lectures: http://www.marknanos.com/lectures.html
I know Mark Nanos’ site and enjoy his writings. I especially enjoyed his book on Romans.
Thank you, Jaco.
Jaco, do you live in Hamilton On .being acquainted with McMaster University ?
No, I live in South Africa. I just stumbled upon this essay once. I actually think someone recommended the essay on this blog before, come to think of it now.
Awesome read Skip! I remember the terror that grabbed my heart when a dear Christian friend accused me of judaizing and following a different Jesus when I returned to the way of living that YHVH calls all men toward. I loved Jesus with everything I knew. So, her threat that I was following a false G-d caused me great distress! Then Abba comforted me and His Spirit guided me in Yah’s Way. I became a family member with Paul in this sect which is indeed NOT heresy. YHVH selected me, I selected Him, I now comprehend and it’s a win! My friend accused me of heresy, well, alrighty then! I realized that I wasn’t the one following a false G-d, she was. Her Jesus was Christianity’s Jesus. He is not the Messiah if Israel, the Holy One of YHVh. She rejected the Way for the church’s way. And she is still more wrapped up in religion than abiding in Him. This realization then taught me a fear that is more precious than concern for myself. I fear for her and other sincere souls like her that she has lost her way in rejecting His. Keep teaching truth. I sincerely pray that all who call upon Yahshua ha Meshiach will be saved from the lie of religion. I know that truth leads to the Way of understanding and gives life. I’m truly sorry that several folks on this blog are just like my friend.
I continue to wonder at the beauty of Stephen’s final sermon. What is the reaction of the church leaders, when he accuses THEM of lawlessness? They believe that they had inherited the religion of Moses, but they had really inherited a rebellion against God’s law/teaching/ways.
Doesn’t it all come down to this?
Did Jesus come to start something new . . .
or to fulfill and finish that which was from
the beginning?
“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign:
Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son,
and shall call His name Immanuel.” Is 7:14
“And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call
His name Jesus, for He will save His people from
their sins.” Mat 1:21
His people?
Yes, believers! WHOEVER they are!!!
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sent His Son
to finally enlighten man to Who He is and what His will is
to redeem them.
Who’s them? His people. His believers. Whoever they are!
No religion required!
🙂 !
“Did Jesus come to start something new . . . or to fulfill and finish that which was from the beginning?” – Neither.
“No religion required!” – This is a fallacy. The moment you walk into a church, pray or open you Bible to pray, you are busy with RELIGION. Religion is not the problem. Religion without a relationship is the problem. EVERY CHURCH or Synagogue or Home group in the world is busy with religion. Religion IS required, but religion without relationship (with HaShem) is dangerous and empty. The question one needs to ask is who determines your religious praxis, HaShem or men?
“Did Jesus come to start something new . . . or to fulfill and finish that which was from the beginning?” – Neither.”
Let me elaborate on my short answer. Your question assumes either a dispensational – or replacement theological understanding.
Jesus’ time on earth was part of HaShem’s great salvation “plan” which started with the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world, and will find it’s climax one day in world to come.
As I am often wont to say: “Wrong question!” You make a good point, Jaco. So much of the argument boils down to simply asking the wrong question, that is, asking the question in a way that presupposes the expected paradigm answer. To my pastor students, “You have come to class with all the answers. But the problem is that you don’t know the questions.”
Those believers will be known by the fruit. Fruit of what? Not just whatever anyone defines as fruit and godly and nice and whatever.
They will be known by the fruit that reflects what Torah delineates as holy actions that reflect HaShem. Yeshua’s example reflected Torah in EVERY way. He walked in the ways that His Father instructed Him as we see explained in Torah.
What you’ve just explained, Rich, is a generalized framework to include WHOEVER without any clear delineations. Torah is what delineates any differences. It shows what is holy or set apart from everything else that does not reflect God’s image.
HaShem didn’t ask if Abraham believed. HaShem SAW Abraham’s belief in his actions thus demonstrating what Abraham believed. HaShem asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son and wasn’t convinced until Abraham actually was in the beginning of actually carrying out the sacrifice when haShem stopped him. Action. Not assent that is hidden and unseen in someone’s brain. Visible, observable action as compared against Torah
Belief cannot be identified until it is connected relationally with Torah. Period.
Relegating Torah as immaterial and needless IS anti-semitic. Jews without Torah simply don’t exist. Plain and simple. Believers walking in The Way, disciples of Yeshua must have Torah as the outward evidence of the grace they acknowledge for the atonement given them by HaShem.
“Belief cannot be identified until it is connected relationally with Torah. Period.” – Love that phrase!
I can’t believe I thunked that up myself, as they say in my native Kentucky hillbilly land. 🙂
“Belief cannot be identified until it is connected relationally with Torah. Period.” – Love that phrase!
Me too! Now, if we would only remember Yeshua IS the Living Torah! and as for the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the earth- this may have “from the beginning” been “Plan A”- for with God there is no Plan “B!”
There was a Lamb who was slain and it was accomplished at Calvary. This was no story, this was as real as real can get, with real whips, real nails and real mean people- a very aggressive and angry mob who were inspired by “who?”
Is it the cross of the Chosen One that divides us? Then let it be so! Is it the cross of the Chosen One that unites us? -then let it be so! amen!
Do we agree with Paul (formerly one who persecuted the newborn church, btw) who said
~As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world has been crucified, and the world’s interest in me has also died ~ (Galatians 6.14)
~ For the proclamation/message/word of the TSLAV is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God ~ (1 Corinthians 1.18)
~ knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, it was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God ~ (1 Peter 1.18,19)
Let us ask ourselves this question..- Who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?
Full atonement? Can it be? Hallelujah!- What a Savior!
Just a small DEFINITION correction. I agree with what you have said as long as we are talking about “Jews” as those with a relationship to YHWH. There are, of course, many Jews who are ethnically Jewish but who lack any spiritual connection. We must clarify this since the two different definitions of “Jew” are easily confused. So, Jews without Torah do exist, but they are Jews by birth line, not by relationship. Frankly, there are millions of “Christians” in the same boat, thanks to the policy of the Roman Empire to simply declare groups “Christian.”
Heschel. “A Jew without Torah is obsolete.” True. Moen: “A Christian without Torah is irrelevant.”
Yep, I see that in respect to the words I used. Thanks. That is a significant understanding difference.
I think I’m getting a little better expressing the numerous thoughts that bounce around my head, but there are still many times that I don’t isolate what I want to say clearly enough. Several thoughts in my head come out as one less desirable statement rather than two or three more clear statements.
The more I read what I actually write the more I appreciate what you and those like you write. Making complex and deep ideas simple isn’t so simple. It is an art it seems to me.
I appreciate your art.
Heschel. “A Jew without Torah is obsolete.” True. Moen: “A Christian without Torah is irrelevant.”
If Torah is the Word of God, then, -how true!! Where would any of us be without “both” the written word (Torah?) and the Living Word, our LORD Jesus (Himself!), for did He not say,
~ without Me, you can accomplish nothing? ~
~ He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God ~
(Revelation 19.13) ~
Excellant!! I am impressed that in these last days, the Spirit is truly raining on the sons and the daughters. The Word and the Spirit are in agreement…what was, is, and will always be in alignment with what has been from the beginning. In other words, the Word of YHWH IS the Word that Christ taught and lived. Messiah said that Moses and the prophets spoke of Him and He came to live out what was proclaimed age upon age.
And so shall the sons and the daughters teach and live.
Mary.. it is always good to hear from you!
Skip has said “Faith is not Theology. Faith is trusting Him and living accordingly.” The word says Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So what I hear the word to mean is my basis of faith and it of course becomes my theology. Study to show yourself approved a workman who needeth not be ashamed. If I have a question about seeming conflict I ask God for wisdom and I keep studying seeking for answers. One question that I have right now that is a block to my being able to understand what you mean by observing Torah, and you have possibly answered this elsewhere, is this: from the time that the disciples received the Holy Spirits baptism on Pentecost until the Temple was destroyed, is there any evidence that sacrifices were performed by the disciples in the temple during those years? Is there evidence that Paul returned each year to Jerusalem to sacrifice on Passover?
Of course this question has within it other issues. What did the tearing of the Temple curtain at Messiahs death mean to the disciples and the remnant? What will the sacrifices in the kingdom age mean to us as the Bride of Messiah?
My answer at this point to this last question is this: the sacrifices at Jerusalem in the coming kingdom must be for the unbelieving nations, because until i can be shown otherwise from scripture, i must conclude that the disciples no longer kept the sacrificial part of the law, since Jesus met this condition of the law. But having said that I can be taught further on these issues.
Jerry, it is believed that Paul took a Nazirite vow.
Apparently one would cut his hair at the moment of taking the vow, and at the end of the vow. Well at least at the end of the vow.
When the period of the continuance of the vow came to an end, the Nazarite had to present himself at the door of the sanctuary with…
a he lamb of the first year for a burnt-offering
a ewe lamb of the first year for a sin-offering
a ram for a peace-offering
After these sacrifices were offered by the priest, the Nazarite cut off his hair at the door and threw it into the fire under the peace-offering.
This is the reason why he went to the Temple.
On other occasions he is know to have rushed to Jerusalem to participate in certain feasts. You can’t keep a real Passover without a sacrifice.
Here are some interesting sites I found on the Nazarite vow:
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0406.htm
http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/nazarite.html
http://www.todayandthatday.com/2008/08/contemporary-nazirite-vow-what-i.html
“is there any evidence that sacrifices were performed by the disciples in the temple during those years?”
Hi Jerry,
We were actually going over this in my congregation last night. Check out Acts 21. Paul’s devotion to Torah is being questioned. There are rumors that he is telling Jews they no longer have to follow the law. James asks him to dispel these rumors by paying for and participating in the completion of a Nazarite vow for four other believers. This would have required animal sacrifices; quite a few in fact. Paul, wholeheartedly agrees to do this, and then continues in Acts 22 to defend himself and the name of Yeshua, but stating publicly his devotion to Jews, the Torah, and the Temple.
Hope this helps provide you with some more questions. I know I have a ton.
And I JUST WROTE ABOUT THIS not more than a week ago. Does anyone actually READ before commenting?
Skip, your blog is on a high caliber. Most are not.
Most blogs have those that come in, caught by a little flash of something, and bring out guns a blazing.
It actually takes time to rise to the level this blog offers. It is a challenge for me, certainly.
And reading is almost a forgotten effort these days. Why read when you can Google it and get the cliff notes 147 character answer.
Take heart. Please keep going. Some of us haven’t reached a nominal graduation time yet.
🙂
GOOD POINT!
I’m not sure if you’re implying I’m the dummy for my comment, or if you’re implying he is for asking the question. Either way, I’m sure more even-tempered, open dialogue will be the result.
Brett,
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean anything personal to you. It’s been an on going thing. A lot of people want easy answers without taking the time to read what’s already been written.
I was making a general observation about how lazy we (me, too) can get wanting answers without putting any effort on our own to discover an answer. It’s the old “spoon fed” method I was raised on in my church background.
Michael,
I was not referring to your comment, but rather Skip’s. The reality is though, I was reminded of myself through what he said. I realize that I also often treat my students harshly for what I deem a “stupid” question, or when they ask me something that I just said. After my experience here I’ll be sure to watch my words with my students more closely. The reality is, I should in some small way, be excited that they care enough to ask the question at all, even if they weren’t paying attention the first several times I said it.
I’m ready to step out on the tip of the leaves on the farthest edge of the top branch of the tree here.
Please understand that I hold my doctrines very loosely. So this is where I’m at TODAY.
It’s been my understanding, and I could vey well be wrong, (wouldn’t be the first time 🙂 ) that Abraham (or G-D HIMSELF) is the root spoken of in Ro.11. With that as my premise I’ve come to consider the following;
Our covenant was made by an oath (YHVH put HIS stamp of approval on the obedience of Abraham) BECAUSE Abraham obeyed the voice of G-d, kept HIS charge, HIS commandments, HIS statutes, and HIS laws. Gen.26:5 YHVH then revealed and approved them again to Israel at Sinia and had Moses write them down.
Yeshua then came and became a third wittness to Elohim’s approval of Abraham’s obedience to HIS (The) Way. Upon the testimony of two or three witnesses?
Yeshua made it clear to the Pharisees that they were making HIS law null and void by their traditions and those not doing the works of Abraham are not his children (broken off branches). John included the Sadducees in his “brood of vipers” speach. Most of what Yeshua taught to the negative was in connection with their traditions that they brought back from Babylon that had not exsisted prior to the destruction of the first temple. I’m no scholar but when all these things are considered? HMMM …………..
Yeshua’s corrections took away their sins of voiding Torah Matt.1:21. They were broken off because they did not believe Him and continued in their wickedness. But many of them did believe and were not broken off (or grafted back in?) such as Paul who also taught the basics of the Torah not adding to or removing one jot or tittle according to traditions of the sect of Abrahamic Hebrews called “The Way” (the eternal paths?)
Those who had taken an oath to the Pharisees 18 measures (?) (or whatever other of our speculations we might have about what Paul might have been refering to that caused the Galatians to become a debtor to the whole law of the circumsized) had taken on the things Yeshua came to correct.
Just a thought please be kind I’m old and that grey stuff on top of my head might very well be my brains leaking out 😀
<3
“Just a thought please be kind I’m old and that grey stuff on top of my head might very well be my brains leaking out”
I’m still chuckling at that one.
I don’t have much grey hair (thanks, Mom) but I feel in the same way about all the pains my body gives me these days. Pains that keep saying, “You’ve abused me (my body) too much and for too long – since you won’t stop, I’ll stop you!”
Ouch.
I so appreciate getting older. And as has been every stage of my life, it has it’s advantages in spite of the drawbacks. I wouldn’t go back one day for anything even if I could!
“Parroting” the words of Paul-
~ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved ~ (Romans 10.1)
Saved?
~ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same LORD over all is rich unto all that call upon Him ~ (Romans 10.12)
~ For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved ~
Whosoever?
~ But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “LORD, help me!”…
(she was a Caananite woman!)
and He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”…
But she said, “Yes, LORD; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their Masters’ table.”…
“the word “religion” did not exist prior to the invention of Christianity.”
Hmmm
In one of favorite movies, To Live and Die in LA, we hear the following lyrics sung in the final scene
As the “newly minted” hero drives off in a red Ferrari with a beautiful, sexy, young blond
“Got me a new religion baby, it’s everything is going to be alright”
The Director, William Friedkin, is probably more famous for his other movies such as The Exorcist (1973)
And The French Connection (1971)
Friedkin’s To Live and Die in LA is all about the upside and the downside of Master/Slave relationships
On the upside the new secret-service agent, whose name is John, learns a lot from Chance
Who is a relatively young Old Master of the secret service “game”
The most difficult thing about the new job for John, who is obviously a very good-hearted young man
Is that the name of this new game is “do whatever it takes” to get the job done
And to the victor goes the spoils
I’m guessing Friedkin loves all his characters in the movie as much as I do
After all, he created them
But in the end I can’t help but think that Friedkin believes this “new religion”
Needs to be exorcised
I forgot to mention that at the villan’s name is Rick Masters
Well, I did enjoy this Shabbat.
Hi Skip,
“Christian theologians began a systematic attempt to caricature Jews as non-Roman and thus unacceptable in distinction from Christians who accommodated certain elements of Roman culture in order to be more attractive.”
Do I see a conspiracy here? Is it a theory? Were Christian theologians of the time that well organized?
This is very surprising to me, and I´m not disagreeing with you, I just hadn´t heard it before. I thought the assimiliation of Jews into the roman culture, plus the introduction of pagan believers in to the Messianic communities in the diaspora had been the major causes of the demise of the Jewish practices and the incorporation of pagan practices into the services. I also had believed that the messianic community (for lack of a better tag) leaders had slowly backed off from the assimilating congregations (later catholic church) when things got too out of hand and kept to themselves in their smaller jewish messianic communities, with full practice of Torah. I can´t site my sources right now for a million dollars, it might be even wrong messianic doctrine!! 🙂 I did know of the blatant antisemitism in the church, but that came later when there was a formal church….didn´t it?
I love church history. Help please! Lost in timeline.
I have lectured on this from Jerusalem to Pretoria. Some of it was recorded and might eventually be available. The sources I mentioned confirm a true conspiracy – that is, the deliberate attempt by certain intellectuals to paint a picture of Jews as NON-ROMAN in an effort to prevent pagans from adopting the Jewish way of life. At the same time, these men accommodated three crucial practices into their new religion (Christianity) in order to lower the entry barriers. As opposed to Jewish ways, it was now possible to come to the God of “Israel” without circumcision, without dietary restrictions and with the allowance of work on Saturday. All of these were Roman expectations.
Read John Gager – but be prepared to confront that fact that the very origins of the church are completely anti-Semitic on purpose.
So it´s a theory. I already left the church and lost my compulsion to white-wash history.
But it is still the view of many messianic and non messianic Jews today, the two-law proposal, that gentiles are only subject to Noahide restrictions.
Plus add in Paul´s text on the 4 basic laws that gentiles must follow, it makes an impressive argument. I also understand that Paul might have meant them as a good starting point and not a comprehensive list of gentile commandments. I struggle with this one in my personal life, and have settled it the jewish way – just chose the strict version to err on the safe side.
So if you have nothing to do and in the mood for a lengthy personal story, get comfy:
For 3 days in Israel (my first trip there), I stayed and celebrated shabbat in the home of a couple of moderate orthodox jews, and spent time discussing this topic of the two laws over many meals. Their way of seeing life is so different from ours, so much more benevolent that in melted my heart. They spoke at length of the love to and of God, of the honor they felt as jewish men to have the full obligation to Torah. We talked about how women are not subject to any commandment that is time-binding, since they have children to breastfeed and foods to prepare and family to tend to, so jewish women do not have as many obligations as men. In the context of the difference in the obligation of keeping the many commandments, they spoke of God´s love for gentiles, and how unfair they perceived for gentiles to believe they must be subjected to the full weight of Torah compliance – that they acknowledge to be quite large- when we lack the tradition, context, community support and instruction.
Since their approach to compliance to Torah was fully based on love and honor to the Almighty, and on the additional benefits of being raised in a tradition that taught it as a way of life, I saw how they concluded that demanding full obedience to Torah commandments to gentiles who didn´t fully know or understand them, don´t live in a supportive environment and would have to change their lifestyles almost completely is short of heresy and a misrepresentation of the God they live to love. They refused to agree that the introduction of a gentile to the jewish God could or should be one of duty to obey over everything, specially their own wellbeing, their family and community standing. They insisted that the Noahide laws were hard enough for a beginner. If the person chose full conversion, then complete compliance would be assumed after a proper period of training and full community support for the whole family for a transition as smooth as possible.
Of course we held these conversatories with Scriptures and notes and wine and wild arm movements and loud debates, sometimes in very public places. One of the things that really amazed me was to see the level of profound insight and scriptural knowledge of their sons, the oldest of which was 13. I could see their astonished faces that I, a gentile woman, would INSIST to comply with as many commandments as possible – with the obvious exclusion from circumcision and the such. At one point they even asked me why I insisted on being a jewish man when Scripture was clear on the roles and obligations of each gender, and God had chosen my gender and place of birth, they said. They proceded to list (looong list) the obligations of jewish women, and it was LONG. They spoke with love, respect and admiration of the monumental role of women at the very core of judaism, and they seemed horrified that I should suggest adding to their duties without regard to the hardship it would represent. Why subject them to more things to do than God does? they insisted. And they related that argument with the legal land regulations that are relevant ONLY INSIDE ISRAEL and not outside its borders. I was completely floored.
Then they drove it home: They told me that God loved me so, that as a rule in life, when confronted with several alternatives – all without sin obviously, and all available to me by the Lord for the exercise of my free will- it was my DUTY to chose the one which caused the least distress, or the most happiness. That my happiness was my responsibility, and given the choice …choose to be happier, or less distressed if happiness was not an available alternative. They also said that martyrdom was a christian concept. That life was hard enough, that we should take care not to add unnecessary pain to ourselves or anyone, specially our children, they insisted. That unnecessary distress is not from God.
So no tzit-tzit for me. No prayer shawl. Or for you.
ok, so no reference materials, no links, just a summary of one of many conversations with a jewish couple and their sons in Israel. Food for thought. It rocked my world for sure. If you want me to, I´ll dig up my notes.
I went to Israel last November, I did not want to go on a tour, I wanted to meet with God. I was desperate. Even with all the sites to see, I spent days at the Wailing Wall, well, Wailing. Fortunately the weather kept the crowds away, and I haven´t been the same since. Ah, God is good.
It taught me to remember that even though I can study the context as hard as possible, it´s not my context and maybe I will never fully understand it. I don´t know if they are right or not. Again, I personally stick to the stricter version but stopped the flagellation when my alternatives are limited and I´m offered a ham and cheese melt. I don´t go hungry anymore.
I would just be weary of creating false doctrine – again.
This is the best Sunday morning I´ve had in a long time.
Hi Bessy,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I do think it gives great food for thought. I think two things you said that were of cardinal importance for those of us you are trying to understand the role of Torah in our lives are:
“…how unfair they perceived for gentiles to believe they must be subjected to the full weight of Torah compliance – that they acknowledge to be quite large- when we lack the tradition, context, community support and instruction.”
“It taught me to remember that even though I can study the context as hard as possible, it´s not my context and maybe I will never fully understand it.”
In the part three years I’ve been investigating, struggling, fighting and trying to understand this. But, I stopped trying to look for the “right answer” quite a while ago, and just started to enjoy the journey. I’ve been amazed at how great HaShem is. And I really enjoyed reading your experience.
Shalom!
Thanks Jaco. I enjoyed reliving it today. Finding joy in the journey is the whole point. I love these arguments, I wish I had more lazy Sundays like today to participate more. Regards.
Bessy,
Your post has brought up a perspective that I haven’t considered in its entirety. Thank you for sharing; I enjoyed reading your experience and respect your conclusions. I agree AND disagree with your Israeli friends! Like most people on TW blog, I desire to learn and grow. So my offering here is not an attack, just my little two cents worth. I can see the logic in their argument, but I keep thinking… “but, on the other hand”. So, this isn’t probably my last thought on the matter, lol.
My walk has changed much in the ten years I’ve pursued Torah obedience. I’m not the same as I was even a year ago in thought or practice. What proved to be difficult years ago (in regards to obedience) is today (in some areas) not only easy, but joyful! And I think this is a result of exactly what you mentioned, “…gentiles who didn´t fully know or understand them [Torah], don´t live in a supportive environment and would have to change their lifestyles almost completely…” This statement IS the reason why we struggle so much in the beginning of our Torah pursuit. Where I disagree with your friends is that this is almost heresy to try [to be more obedient] and misrepresents God. The very thing YHWH asked of Abram was to DO this very thing: leave his comfortable (Gentile) “culture” and embark on a new paradigm (if you will).
I also have a hard time accepting the traditional Jewish belief that God has a different standard for different ethnicities. As far as I can tell, we who are far off (gentile background) draw near to the covenants of promise and are adopted into YHWH’s one family. My sister’s adopted daughters live by the same rules as the natural born children, though there was a great deal of mercy and compassion as they learned to adapt to the new environment. They weren’t expected to immediately “get and practice” all the house rules. But as time passed, they grew and matured until anyone looking in couldn’t decipher between the natural born and the adopted. They all have and keep the same standard.
No one considers this a lack of happiness or a hardship on behalf of the adopted children or a misrepresentation of my sister and her husband’s love for the children. The entire process was one of love and a desire to prosper the adopted children. Forgive the analogy, but this is a real life “parable” I have watched and it has taught me much.
This is why I always tell “newbies” to take baby steps. Maturity is the goal. I think we need to be supporting and encouraging those returning to HaShem and His Torah. We are to be that community that provides a nourishing environment for them to mature and flourish. We can’t expect people to automatically be “where we are at”. Besides, there is always someone else further along the path than we are. I don’t believe that YHWH expects this of us either. Perhaps this is partly what your Jewish friends were implying? Or is the heart of their interpretation? Either way, I think they are still missing the mark in part.
We each have our own journey. The important thing is to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Keep moving. Keep growing. Keep transforming into the image of the Son as He is the image of the Father of us all. In my experience and walk, this process has led me into a deeper and richer form of Torah obedience. I guess what I’m saying is that I’ve enjoyed taking each step even when they have challenged me greatly. I hope that each season, I am moving closer and closer to the goal. Shalom to you and your home! And thanks so much for sharing. I’m sure to be contemplating this for a while. (:
Hi K,
I love the adoption analogy! I think I didn´t express myself adequately, since there is little disagreement in what they and you are saying:
“Where I disagree with your friends is that this is almost heresy to try [to be more obedient] and misrepresents God. The very thing YHWH asked of Abram was to DO this very thing: leave his comfortable (Gentile) “culture” and embark on a new paradigm (if you will).”
They did not say to me that trying to be more obedient is heresy and misrepresents God. What they said is that for anyone to present a God who demands obedience first is a misrepresentation.
The adoption analogy is perfect. Children are brought home, and a solid foundation of trust and love must be established, as the basis on which discipline, structure and order is to be erected. Same concept here. What they said was, start with baby steps, the noahide laws, while you get to know the Merciful God of Israel. And build. Abraham already had a trust relationship with God, he didn´t come in from the cold. He obeyed because he had faith, and faith comes from hearing. Abraham did not have a Bible, so he must have heard directly from the source. My friends said the same thing, don´t be so hard on yourselves. Baby steps. Get to know Him, start small. Don´t take on the whole of the burden, you don´t have the proper structure of a solid relationship of love and faith to carry the whole weight.
Now, the different standards from different ethnicities is the crux of the matter. That´s where they loose me too, but I can appreciate how they arrive at that conclusion. Whether we like it or not or it make sense or not, is moot. If it is, it is. I would like to see if Skip replies and what he brings to the table. But I think we might not be reading this right either. Let me try to explain:
I agree with you that we all live by the same standards, Scripture. What I think they were trying to explain to me is that we have different levels of obligation. Men and women don´t have the same obligations, gentiles and jews don´t either, they believe, unless the gentile converts to judaism. By converting to judaism, the jewish teachers commits to a long and comprehensive teaching process. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION OR LOVE. It is a reference to God´s mercy, and the demands it makes from those who have received much and those who haven´t. What I think they are saying is that He demands more of the jews who were born and raised in a manner conducive to obedience than from us who have to change our whole belief system to adapt to a completely new one.
Just reading around this blog is a sample of how complex a process that is for us gentiles, and we are reasonable educated people. Imagine those who have only heard adultered messages and are unable to read or don´t have access to Scripture in their language.
Back to the adoption analogy, it´s like having natural children and children that were adopted children at different ages. An adopted newborn will have the benefit of full and easy immersion and adaptation, but adopting an 8 or a 14 year-old, abused, abandoned and mistreated, might take a lot more love and patience, and a long time and many struggles to adapt, and will require more mercy, more support and a lot more slack. But they all live in the same household under the same rules.
That said, it still hits me right in the stomach to think of two separate laws, even though I think I get it and it makes sense to me. I love God, want to please Him, love His Son, enjoy the Spirit, and am a widowed latin woman in my mid forties living a third world country. Where and when in the bleep blleeeep bleep will I get this support system to make the transition? I will not convert, I have no idea why I should, nobody is asking me to, and where is the practicality of it? And honestly, I like being able to have some wriggle room. That woman duty list was LONG, I don´t really want to be like a fully observant jewess! Immersing after every menses with full ritual….nnooooooo!!! If we really understood what it means to be fully observant of Torah we would be in tears of gratitude for not being jews. But conceptually, intellectually, morally I don´t like the divide. But I´m a 21 century western woman, not a 1st century middle eastern woman. We see things differently.
I would like to see all the guys in tzit tzit, prayer shawl swaying away every day, 3 times a day. What would that do to your schedule? And that´s a tiny part! I don´t mean to be disrespectful, just blatantly honest and with a bit of perspective. Sometimes these blogs make one seem as highly spiritual, which might be true for some, but not for me. I´m highly human, trying every day to do what´s right. And it´s hard already.
Again, God is not like Facebook with a LIKE button. So if I must go all the way, after more than 25 years in this walk I do have the strength of love, faith and trust for Him to demand it of me. He should. But if He doesn´t, woooohoooo!!
Bessy,
Thanks for clarifying. (;
“They did not say to me that trying to be more obedient is heresy and misrepresents God. What they said is that for anyone to present a God who demands obedience first is a misrepresentation.”
And
“Baby steps. Get to know Him, start small. Don´t take on the whole of the burden, you don´t have the proper structure of a solid relationship of love and faith to carry the whole weight.”
Then, I do agree with your friends on this point (-: ! And sadly, as far as I’ve seen, this is a major problem in “Messianic” circles. They often do “demand” obedience before there is a solid structure of love and faith on the new “babes”. And that really is a misrepresentation of our loving Elohim! This is one area where I too was once a “trouble” maker. ): I now realize how damaging and fruitless this is. And all I can chalk it up to is immaturity on my part and the others I was fellowshipping with at the time. I’ve noticed that those “newer” to Torah (and without a mature mentor/teacher) can easily allow their zeal for Torah to morph into a type of oppression on friends, family, etc. Sadly, the very thing they hope to accomplish is diminished because the message is dictated rather than expressed with loving action. This is one reason why I love this blog; I perceive Skip to be not only educated but also one that seeks to see people mature (with the resulting change in behavior that reflects the Creator and His Torah). And this should be ongoing for all our days.
You also brought up another issue I’ve pondered much over the years:
“By converting to judaism, the jewish teachers commits to a long and comprehensive teaching process. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION OR LOVE. It is a reference to God´s mercy, and the demands it makes from those who have received much and those who haven´t. What I think they are saying is that He demands more of the jews who were born and raised in a manner conducive to obedience than from us who have to change our whole belief system to adapt to a completely new one.”
I also realize this isn’t about salvation. But glad you explained as many could misunderstand. This all still makes me go…hmm. Because I get why people do want to convert. And I also get why they don’t. For me it is a divine paradox. Many of the things you mentioned about being a full-fledged Jew involves taking upon the not just Torah, but Oral Torah. I have mixed feelings about this as well. Some things seem helpful and edifying and others really do seem like nothing but dry, lifeless burdens. Oy Vey! What to do? I’ll keep seeking, keep searching, and keep praying. And I’m sure that you are doing the same. May He continue to lead us in His path! (:
“Sometimes these blogs make one seem as highly spiritual, which might be true for some, but not for me. I´m highly human, trying every day to do what´s right.”
I’m completely with you on this one, sister! I’m daily battling on many fronts, and the most troublesome one is my very own nephesh! I’m just thankful for communities like this where we can share in our journey and hopefully be strengthened. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I enjoy your input. (:
Journey. That’s the right word. It is the DIRECTION that matters, not the destination. TW is a 10 year journey of 4760 steps so far. I’ll quit at 10,000. It seems like such a reasonable number. But TW is my personal journey and all of you are just accompanying me. Thank you.
And thank you, Skip, for sharing your journey and allowing us to do the same. So many are without a physical community and this supplies (at least in part) that very needed element of our journey. I’ll still be sad when you do quit. (:
Skip quit? Not write? I will have to see that for myself. He probably won´t rest until he has beaten maturity into our skulls. 😉 The patience!
I hear what you say about Oral Torah, but doesn´t our struggle with which Torah to obey reiterate the whole problem? We want to be able to choose how to obey, and obey on our terms. It doesn´t work that way, unfortunately for me. Yeshua kept Oral Torah, so did Paul and the disciples. And the whole conversation with my friends was about how fortunate and honored they feel for being able to keep Torah, it´s joyful, not a burden.
Bottom line for me, I love being a Torah loving gentile of the 21st century. LOVE IT. Get to go at my own pace in my spiritual life, reject tradition, reject my religious community, get myself a supportive virtual community, pick the level of observance, with no negative social sanction. And blog about it.
Please don´t read sarcasm, there is none. I do love it. Isn´t it a bit scary though?
Hi Bessy,
I appreciate you pouring your heart out in search of truth and understanding.
We are on a learning curve on this journey, and every step is enriching when we allow YHWH to guide and be under His authority. Easier said, 🙂 than done, but that is the individual’s journey.
Some circumstances are harder to deal with, some are simply beyond us.
Most of us here, from the comments written, had gone through tough times, or are going through them now. I for one, am going through a difficult time of decision making, and wish I could disappear into thin air, but, I am faced with the responsibility of being a right example to others in the family, ministry, etc..not to show the stress I am going through, doing what my counsel to others-be strong and trust in ABBA!
It’s true, and I agree that not all “Jewish” laws are for everyone, nor is anyone compelled to keep them, given the free will, but if I choose to, no one is to oppose it either, when it’s in the Scriptures, and I am doing it to please YHWH, and for my personal spiritual welfare. Like you said, no two sets of laws.
Love your Israeli experiences. They are beautiful folks, warm and genuine. So much to learn from them. Wish we could have lived in that culture, our kids then would have grown up better grounded in YHWH’s ways too.
Thank you for sharing! Shalom and blessings.
Bessy,
I must say I am so wanting to visit Israel, Jerusalem and vicinities. I just haven’t been able to negotiate the trip yet. I am hoping and yearning for the possibility to make the trip one day.
I enjoy hearing about your trip experiences and others that have gone.
I’ve been to Europe and surrounding area while in my teens as an Army dependent. The farthest from the U.S.A. I’ve been was on a mission trip to China, a ‘small’ town of 12 million!
I hope you share more Israel stories and lessons as the opportunities arise.