What Day Is It?
And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one. Zechariah 14:9 ESV
That day – Can here be any doubt about which day is “that day”? It is the day when waters will flow from Jerusalem toward the East and toward the West. It is the day when it is winter and summer. It is the day when light comes at evening. Clearly Zechariah is describing the last day, the end, the day of YHWH’s arrival. But the physical contradictions of that day are not the only global changes. On that day YHWH will be the only God. All other false gods will disappear from the earth. All others will be shown for what they are – lies! So far we’re all cheering. “Yes, in that day our faith will be fully vindicated. The God of Israel will reign supreme.”
Then comes the discomforting phrase, “and his name one.” ooshmo ehad. Imagine you are standing with the prophet when he utters these words. They are not new to you. You have been saying them from the time you could talk. The Shema. “Our God is One!” The central tenet of the Jewish way of life. In the end, the absolute unity of God will be the cry of all the people of the earth.
Except, of course, for those who claim that God is three in one.
With proper Christian training, we can manipulate this verse so that it implies the Trinitarian concept of God. It doesn’t say that, of course, so we will have to add that implication from our own theological paradigm. In fact, there are no verses in the Bible that specifically mention the Trinitarian construct. Perhaps that’s why theologians like Millard Erickson carefully pen, “[The doctrine of the Trinity] is so absurd from a human standpoint that no one would have invented it. We do not hold the doctrine of the Trinity because it is self-evident or logically cogent. We hold it because God has revealed that this is what he is like.”[1] Erickson decries Kierkegaard’s “leap of faith” approach, that is, that I believe because it is logically absurd. But when it comes to the Trinity, Erickson just jumps off the cliff with everyone else. “We believe the doctrine of the Trinity because it doesn’t make any sense!” Yes, that makes sense, doesn’t it? Oh, and by the way, men did formulate it, as any historical research will show.
Notice, if you will, that Zechariah doesn’t have any problem at all with expressing the oneness of YHWH. The oneness of YHWH will eventually become the only understanding of God. In that day no one will be confused about God’s unity. So either the doctrine of the Trinity will suddenly become crystal clear or the doctrine of the Trinity will evaporate along with all the rest of the world’s false claims.
Which one are you betting on?
Topical Index: Zechariah 14:9, Trinity, Millard Erickson, that day, Kierkegaard
[1] Millard Erickson, Systematic Theology (first edition), p. 342.
I’m betting on the Trinitarian concept because it alone provides an answer to the otherwise unanswerable one and many problem. If YHVH is the answer to all things, then he must also be the answer to this particular issue that has plagued Western thought. If YHVH is not the answer to all things, then he is not YHVH.
It also eliminates the otherwise rather obvious conclusion that Yeshua must have prayed to himself if he is God and God is not three persons, or else he was not absolute divinity, and therefore should not be worshiped in place of the ultimate God.
There are not too many choices once the Athanasian Creed and Council of Chalcedon formulations of Christology are abandoned.
But you said it. The problem has plagued WESTERN thought (the one and the many) for centuries. Ever wonder why it isn’t an ongoing problem in Middle Eastern ancient thought.
What I should have said is that the one and the many problem has plagued non-Biblical Western thought, because the Bible does provide an answer to this issue. So the problem is not “the West” but the non-Biblical-Theism part of the West.
Unfortunately, the ancient Middle East displays a poor record of applying the Scriptures. Not much worldview material developed out of that part of the world, even though they had the Scriptures. It is the advent of the Messiah that ushers in a “new age” where the Torah, now written on the hearts of men and women, creates a new impetus in the world.
Ever wondered why the “universe” – unity and diversity, the one and the many – concept is unique to the West and not the Middle East? Why the university was a unique development of Biblical thought? Look no further. If YHVH created all things, then he was the first person to “rationalize” the facts of the universe. This means, all facts are coherent to God, a unified universe, a solution to the one and the many, universals and particulars. Without a solution to universals and particulars (one and the many) deductive logic disappears and what has made the West so “successful” in physical terms also disappears: the ability to combine inductive and deductive logic, the scientific method.
As Rabbi Sha’ul said in direct confrontation to the Greek philosophers, fire, earth, water, etc. don’t cut it. It is “in Him we live, and move, and have our being.”
Your Rushdooney is showing. 🙂
1+1+1=3
1x1x1=1
like! 🙂
JOHN….I LIKE THAT. I may be in A Baptist Church but I am NOT a Trinitarian . If you get 6 Trinitarians in one room.. it is more confusion than a cat on a hot tin roof with diarrhea.
What an image, Carol! 🙂
Hey Ian,
Did you really mean that you are betting on the Trinitarian doctrine to be true? To me if you are betting on something, it means that is the thing you favor. I would not bet on Trinity doctrine because I do NOT believe in it.
The rest of your words don’t say that but maybe I am confused!
God’s Word tells us what God wants us to know.
“It is written.”
Outside of that written account, lie untold mysteries
God reserves for Himself. Let’s let them lie.
I know God the Father loves me.
I know Jesus is Lord and came to save me.
I know the Holy Spirit dwells within me to guide me.
That’s more than enough for me.
I have no problem, at the logical leven saying God is one. It is at the visceral level, overcoming years of training and conditioning that I have and will have the problem. Oh well. In that day it will be.
Skip, I have resolved the idea of trinity in my mind. Have you resolved what you believe or are you trying to figure it out? Also, how do you explain our being made in God’s image?
Doesn’t Romans 1 make pretty plain that we can see God’s attributes in the things He has made? I look around at creation, and I don’t see anything that I could peg as being “logically absurd.” The Trinity doctrine seems to be so much nonsense in this light.
Trinity? While “the church” teaches ONLY 3, I see, in the Scriptures, that God manifests Himself in many more ways than 3. We are so very very totally blessed that He would manifest Himself at all so that we can relate. I love YHVH, Yeshua HaMashiach and the Holy Spirit. I also love the “voice” of God (He is Spirit): “and God said…” “and God called”… “and God said,’Let us make man in Our Own Image after Our likeness…” “God said unto them…”; “God called unto him out of the midst of the bush…”; “and the LORD God commanded the man saying, ‘Of every tree in the garden…'”; “I was in the Spirit… and heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet saying, ‘I am Alpha and Omega…'” He manifested Himself on the Mercy Seat. He manifested Himself in fire and a cloud. On and on and on through the glorious, love-filled Holy Word of God, we read of Him communicating to man on a level we can SORT OF relate to and understand. Praise YHVH, the One True God (in the midst of a zillion false gods.)
Allow me to share with you some very cherished, personal experiences. You’ll probably shrug it all off as me being nuts or on drugs or something but nope… these experiences are as real as the daily grind of life.
One time, YHVH came to me personally (I was 15 and had just been orphaned) in the form of a “common working man” in a grey jumpsuit carrying a silver lunch-pail. I was in a large, open park with a girlfriend of mine. Immediately before the “man,” who came out of NOWHERE, came to me, my friend became very oddly sleepy, lay down and went into a sleep that I could not wake her from. The “man” simply said, “You will be alright. Everything will be alright” and he left… I screamed at Marie to wake up but she didn’t (No, she didn’t have a seizure or use some sort of sleep aid! She had NEVER done anything like that before.) When I turned to watch the man walk away, HE WAS GONE (a human could not have RUN out of my site that fast.)
Another time, years later and I was an adult, when I was outside of my home hanging up laundry, God (or His Angel or Christ or Whatever He used for a voice) audibly spoke to me (and I almost fell to the ground as tho I would die.) All the Voice said was, “Pray!” I dropped the laundry and ran to my bedroom where I knelt and prayed… about everything I could think of… for hours.
God is real and He wants you to look for Him and trust in Him all day and all night long.
Praise Him.
As we live in three dimensions (though there are 4 that are knowable if you count time) God exists in many dimensions all at the same time. Perhaps the concept of the trinity is man’s attempt to capture God in his own frame of reference.
Some where along the line I remember reading about how many dimensions there are thought to be. Some one said that there are at least 15 that he counted by going through the book of Isaiah.
Exactly, Jill. We have SEVERE limitations; God doesn’t.
The Elegant Universe and String Theory propose 10 dimensions based on mathematical calculations, but this is not the same as saying God exists in all dimensions nor is it compatible with the idea of the Trinity which is based in a Greek concept of person. Lots more to investigate here.
Lots more to investigate here….Indeed
“Person” is not a biblical concept based on YHVH? 🙂
Person is Hebrew is not the same as person in Greek. Greek thought is individual, unique, space-time substance, noun, thing, existing apart from others and independent. None of these are priorities in Hebrew. In Hebrew “person” (nephesh) is the summary of relationships, exists only in the dynamic of action, finds identity in lineage and expected purpose, verb, communal, does not exist independently or separately. The Greek idea of “person” pervades Trinitarian thought, and this is what creates the problem. There is no analog to one being as three persons since “person” means independently existing being. But in Hebrew, person exists in action and there are many analogies to multiple actions of one being. Much more needs to be done on this.
“since “person” means independently existing being. ” What is an ‘independently existing being’?
Do you think concepts such as rationality, a sense of justice, a sense of righteousness, the ability to be creative, the ability to make choices, etc. are essential characteristics of ‘person’? If not, why not?
I think that being in His image is a Hebraic tribal concept highjacked by Greek universalist philosophy. I think being in His image means exactly what it would have meant to the children of Israel coming out of Egypt – verbs like to make, to fashion, to rule, to represent, to communicate, to struggle, to bring order, to take dominion, and especially the verbs constructs present in God’s self-description in Exodus 34:6-7. I believe that to become human is to become more and more like God in these ACTIONS. So, some of the things you mention are important, but not as attributes, rather as acts. One of these actions is to discover identity in community. COnsider David Stein’s article of the use of ish in Hebrew, not the dictionary definition, as a sort of jumping off point.
Sorry, have to post a response here.
Thanks for your reply. It helps. Would it be out of place to describe “YHVH” as being absolute or ultimate? For example, YHVH is ultimate in power (omnipotent), or he is absolute in terms of rationality (i.e. the ultimate standard of rationality).
Hi Ian,
I am packing now. Will have to respond as I am able. There is a chance I will be in Perth in November. Want to hop over?
Perth is too far. I expect to be relocating in November. You need to visit Brisbane or Sydney.
Exodus 34:6 The LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, “The LORD! the LORD, a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger, and abundant in lovingkindness and truth
Hmmm
Seems like He is nothing if not human, an all good Human
Perhaps we learn to be human by being like God in regard to each and every one of these actions.
I have been wrestling with this issue for some time. I have come to the conclusion that the Trinity doctrine is wrong. We know it is incomprehensible. I was on a blog discussion some time ago and asked if the three persons of the Trinity were in fact individuals. The answer was a resounding NO. Then I went to my dictionary and looked up the definition of a person…. An individual!! The words themselves begin to lose all meaning in Trinity discussion. Here are a few of my observations:
The wars between Arius and the Church establishment in the early centuries were based on whether a relationship that was subordinate (like Jesus constantly claimed about His Father) could also be equal. It is hard to be equal and subordinate at the same time. Clearly Jesus was “sent”, was “raised” etc by a power higher than himself. Yet I believe He was perfect in his life walk. Being sinless He would not have earned death, yet willingly substituted for us. Even in the Talmud there is discussion about a righteous individual accepting death for someone else.
Everywhere I check in ancient Greek religion I see God-men. Note that when Paul healed a lame man the people of the town were certain that Zeus and Hermes were in their midst. Why did Paul not say that their conclusion was partially correct…and tell them that Yahweh had come as a man. In fact a study of the book of Acts will reveal that the incredible news of the gospel was not that God had been born and died in their midst but that Messiah had come. The term “Son of God” means something totally different in Hebrew and Greek culture. For the Greeks, their gods had off spring, some even by human mothers. This idea is an abomination for Jews.
Philippians 2 informs us that Jesus was given a name above every name…that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow. Yet we know from Isaiah 45:23 that this applies to Yahweh the Father. Paul even says o in Romans 11:45 where he says that every knee will bow before God. So what is the “name” Jesus was given after his resurrection when he was exalted? Remember that Moses renamed Hosea, son of Nun to Joshua (actually Yehoshua) This changes “deliverer” into “Yahweh saved”. I believe that Jesus had His name changed as well from “Yeshua” (Salvation, he will save) to Yehoshua “Yahweh saved”… just like Psalms 22 says. Father has not abandoned the righteous one to Hades but raised him up again. He (Father) has done it!!! Asah (Hebrew). Interesting that the Greek version of Joshua/Yehoshua is Iesous/Jesus. But we get the same name for Yeshua as Iesous. So Greek does not show any name change even though at a Hebrew level the change is literally universe shaking….YHWH/Yahweh saved!!! Yet the modern Christian church does not even know His Name!!! They think God’s name is Lord/LORD. Actually Baal means lord/master as well…such confusion.
sticky fingers… that should be Romans 14:11 related to Isaiah 45:23-25
And yet Rabbi Sha’ul lays an important emphasis not on the Messiah’s coming but on his resurrection:
1 Cor. 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
The NT message is Messiah–>resurrection–>guaranteeing a day of judgement.
Ian: agreed! Of course He had to come first. But the emphasis is on Jesus being Messiah, then His death and resurrection/exaltation by Father. That provides hope for us, to join in the resurrection of which He was Firstfruits.
Yes, with one addition. The reason the NT does not place emphasis on the DEATH but on the resurrection is that resurrection is the guarantee of hoped-for life and of the coming Judgment. The removal of death as the last solution is a message every Gentile would want to hear.
“We were BURIED therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was RAISED from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in NEWNESS of life.” Rom 6:4.
From the time of ~ let US make man in OUR image..~ Elohim (plural in Hebrew) or God has revealed Himself as “tri-une.” I believe in the unity or “oneness” or tri-unity of Elohim. God has revealed Himself to “whosoever will” (all are included- none are excluded) as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Ruach (or Holy Breath).
We (as in none of us) will ever fully know God apart from what is written in His “God-breathed” Book. He does reveal Himself as Creator in His creation- (He made this world and all that is in it) and the Heavens do declare the glory of God and the firmament does show His handiwork, and we, (as in Christians and Jews), because of creation will believe in God the Creator.
We need to know the Names(s) of God, for as His Name is, so is He. He is (first and foremost) the “I AM.”
The book of Psalms contain, sadly, seven prophetic “I AM’s of the suffering Servant. And then we have the seven “I AM’ statements of Jesus (who is the) Christ, the incarnate Word.
There are over three hundred “names” of God and the Son of God and God the Son is also fully able and has proven over and over to be the fulfilled revealtion of every one of these names!
At the baptism of the Messiah, a Voice was heard from Heaven, saying.. “This is My Beloved Son, “Hear ye Him!” And then, of course, the affirmation of the descending Dove (or Ruach?).
All through the scriptures, Old Covenant and New the Father, the Son and the Ruach are mentioned. All these three mentionings of His Name distinguish themselves and yet agree perfectly with one another!
And just to ease many minds (including my own!)- we will never (ever) fully understand the “tri-unity” (a better word, I think, than “trinity”) of God!
Yes, there is much I do not know, but I know “enough!” So let’s not talk about what I don’t know, because we could be here for days on this subject!- But what I do know is this!: ~ Because God so loved this world, He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life! I also know the Messiah said, ~ I have come that you might have life!- and have it more abundantly! ~ (John 10.10)
I remember someone said, “all I know is what I read in the newspapers..” – hmm… How many of us spend more time reading and thinking about a newspaper that we do reading, meditating upon and living out the word(s) of God? Our Bible really is a wonderful Book! We had ought to pay attention to what is written and to “shema” the scriptures!
The Bible says of itself: ~ All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable..~. So allow me to “spin” this for you.. Ready? Fasten your pew belt… ~ All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable..~ All of it. From Genesis 1.1 ~ until Even so, come, LORD Jesus! (Revelation 22.20).
I do like how this Book ends!
Amen brother Carl. Jesus said to Mary at the tomb, I have not yet returned to the Father John 20:17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” All I know is that Jesus is called Father but He is not the Father, yet He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. He is not the Father yet He is all the fullness of the God head. Tri-unity is a good word.
Furthermore Jesus said when He prayed to the Father about us “may they be one as you and I are one”.
John 17:11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
So you and I are to be one even as the Father and Son are one. Which one of us will cease to exist in this oneness?
Shema Israel YHVH Elohenu, YHVH echad!
His words, not mine, not Skip’s!
If you can’t hear, shema, clean out your ears!
Yes your right: Israel has one God just as man has one wife. Two become one.
It appears that Skip has stumbled and needs some help here. The trinity concept used by christianty is a derivation in greek thought of hebraic concept. Specifically the usage relates to brit and its application outside the narrow understanding derived from temple observance. I believe I have made reference here before concerning the relationship and meaning of covenant. Rabbinical Judaism has inserted this point of contention when truly there is a loss of context. Covenant is not a Jewish concept. It was inherited from the forefathers all the way to Adam. The Torah declares Hashem as the author of covenant – unilaterally promulgated by God and either accepted or rejected by mankind. The covenant (with Hashem) has three elements: the covenant giver, the one who submits, and the gift of sonship the covenant confers. This structure is describes in Genesis chapter 1 v5 as the image in which man is made. The oneness of God is the unity of the covenant bond as it defines man’s relationship to Him. Going beyong this is absurb because you and I can not comprehend God. The argument is a loss of contrast since if we can not understand God by nature we can not define Him. The christian beleif is solely for the purpose of understanding the mystery of covenant as it relates to man. I could tell you that god is the substance of eternal commitment to guarding and preserving His life in his just as I could tell you that God is the eternal obligation to live that life in each of us. It would be an observation on my part, not a definition because we can not understand what that means in our nature.
The most proper interpretation to this reference is the end of limited stewardship in terms of mediation between Hashem and creation. Hashem shall return to direct sovereignty over creation ergo judgement and final reward. To go beyond this requires attaching meaning into the text – typically via presupposition. While such arguments can be made and supported ultimately it serves no benefit to introduce further divisions between christianity and Judaism or to support existing ones. The purpose of “ooshmo ehad” is to build sacred familial bonds not break them…
this is an interesting conversation. For me, it is like the idea of right brain/left brain dominant people. I have thought about this idea since my husband is super detail oriented-studies genetics and I am more big picture oriented and see the big picture and like natural concepts. It seems to me that seeing God as three persons in one is looking at the details, and seeing him as one God is looking at him as a whole person. I could be wrong and am uneasy about even saying what I think, but I think that from a Hebrew’s perspective you look at the whole and Greek perspective is looking at details and as long as the Hebrew side is dominant, the balance will be healthy. But if the detail order- Greek side becomes dominant then the picture becomes Unhealthy. I think you need a unified picture of God to know Him as a person.
One more comment. We can all understand the concept of Father and Son which The Scripture uses. The Spirit is the difficult part of the equation. Maybe bi-unity in one person one spirit is a better concept since God is spirit. Both are one in Spirt just as we are one in the body of Christ because we are in the Spirit in Him.
Jesus the lamb of God is seen as a separate person and with a separate thrown in heaven. I have come to see the Father and Son as being of one mind one Spirit. We are finite and can only be held accountable for what we see revealed in Scripture. If we reversed the circumstance used in the prayer in John 17 we see that God is one as we are one and we are one in spirit, and we should be one doctrine or mind (what we know and what we believe). My conclusion is that that they will come during the Great Tribulation when all Israel (Jew and Gentile) is saved. Worldwide Tribulation will bring unity (oneness in us and our Kings return.