The Weight of Authority
Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire. Leviticus 21:9 NASB
Burned with fire – This is the anniversary of a despicable event in the Church. October 27, 1553. John Calvin, the religious head of Geneva, had the scholar Michael Servetus burned alive at the stake because Servetus did not accept Calvin’s Trinitarian doctrine. The entire incident was designed to inflict as much torture as possible on Servetus,[1] a man of who contributed a great deal to intellectual understanding of the world and theology but who denied the Trinitarian formulation of the Church. Even though this death sentence violated the current laws of Geneva, Calvin made no attempt to stop it. In fact, he wrote a letter to his friend Farel before Servetus was arrested saying, “I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him.” It took thirty minutes for Servetus to die in the flames.
Zephaniah delivers God’s message to the people. In it God castigates and condemns those who have bowed down to false gods and turned away from Him. Do you suppose that God intended His representatives on earth to carry out His punishment on those who did not seek Him? It’s not a trivial question. Today we may feel horrified that men like Calvin would torture others over doctrine, but the history of religion provides plenty of examples of this sort of treatment. Entire cultures have been wiped away in the name of God. Claiming divine empowerment, men in authority have employed whatever means they thought necessary to eliminate differing opinion, even when the opposing views are those of people who still follow the biblical God. The desire for conformity in the hands of the powerful is a frightening thing.
We no longer burn people at the stake in order to make them recant of their differing views. But I wonder if we aren’t still practicing the same intention even if our means have become more civilized. One of the most disheartening observations of the world of religious belief is the intolerance we have for those of differing opinion. I am not talking about the differences between faiths. Certainly there are substantial differences in fundamentals between Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity. That is obvious. No, I am speaking about the intolerance within Christian and Messianic circles. I am distressed to find brothers and sisters who claim to follow the same God and the same Messiah but who nevertheless are unable to enter into genuine fellowship because of exegetical differences, because of disagreement over doctrines or particulars. How will we become one with each other and the Lord if our unification depends on conformity in belief? Do you think that God really intends that we should all agree with every proposition before we can worship in harmony with each other? Did Yeshua require that every disciple think exactly as he did before he called them “friends?”
You might share my discomfort, but empathy isn’t enough. The idea that we should be tolerant of differing opinions within the faith community is not sufficient if it is not practiced. If you act in ways that exclude me because you think that my views are wrong, have you not started the same fire that Calvin used to destroy Servetus? Apparently Calvin’s reading of Yeshua’s statement, ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν καὶ προσεύχεσθε ὑπὲρ τῶν διωκόντων ὑμᾶς·, should have been translated, “But I say to you, examine your enemies and persecute those who don’t agree with you” rather than, “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”[2]
Topical Index: conformity, doctrine, Servetus, Calvin, Leviticus 21:9
[1] http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/michael-servetus.htm
[2] Matthew 5:44
The funny thing is it’s on both sides. I can only speak for myself but when I learned this stuff/was learning this stuff in the beginning there was an excitement that I had to share with everyone. In the process I made people feel bad about what they believe by calling it, “Pagan” and making a proposal in the fine lines that I had a better connection with God then they did and I was doing ‘more’ of what He wanted at the end of the day, and lastly I know the, ‘truth’ so if it wasn’t aligning with what I knew – false.
There was a level of pride and also a level of genuine fear of God that made it so I wouldn’t even say , “Happy Easter” or “Merry Xmas” instead, “Happy holiday” because I didn’t want to participate in these ‘pagan’ activities. Which now is not the case at all. I don’t have an xmas tree up this year but I’m not being a jerk – my family is getting xmas presents.
Then on the Christian side, even if I did a Bible study that I genuinely wanted to have community and they are reading Matthew and I bring up, “The verse I actually believe means *quote Skips blog*”, their seemed to be an offended attitude that would come from it when the line was crossed that the Law is still relevant for today. And I was just plainly sharing for dialog because I thought that’s what we are suppose to do.
So where does that lead me? Honest question, what am I suppose to get out of a christian or a catholic service? Are we suppose to ‘just’ connect on the horizontal relationships and hold hands on that? I mean that’s fine if that’s the answer, I guess it would allude to the fact that you just learn and teach in your own home and then we should all be able to agree with Yeshua when he says, treat your neighbor as your self.
I’m looking for some dialog though, because I completely 100% agree with you Skip I just don’t know what to do with it. I mean you dropped out of the church for pretty much the same reasons why I did – in fact you were the ‘spear tip’ for me. Or did I mess up by doing that? And now that I’m out of it, it’s very difficult for me to picture myself in it again. I don’t know if that’s pride or if it’s because I know I wouldn’t get squat out of the service because in my head I would be correcting the pastor that much more- or are they the same thing? Or should I just become a part time pastor so I could give killer sermons that are more accurate? I mean what am I supposed to do now when connecting seems so foreign.
What I have done Derek is to require a relationship goal with those I fellowship with. I have been asked to speak to groups by a few and I tell them that is not the way I desire to fellowship. I find the one on one or one with a few, in a walk on a morning or in the beauty of San Diego to be so much more enjoyable than to sit in a congregation and get to know a few of the people where I know the back of their head better than I know their face.
I don’t walk with a married woman, I ask that if she wants to do that with me that her husband be with us and I also enjoy walking with an individual more than several people at a time. As I have instituted this in my fellowship practices, I have found that the ones I do this with have found it more enjoyable than sitting in their church. I have also come to find myself turning away those who ask to join me due to the time I have devoted to those I walk with being a busy schedule. When I start my day this way I am so pumped up the rest of the day….I have stopped drinking coffee!
Thanks for the share Richard!
Hi Derek, just wanted to let you know that you’re not alone in this. I would imagine that most here have gone through or are still going through these issues, and while I certainly don’t have the answers, I can share some of the things that I work out in regards to unity. Skip wrote that piece a while back called the egocentric gospel and it kinda hit the nail on the head concerning our treatment of God and the handling of Him with kid gloves. The thing is, that if you don’t want to upset a man, you’ll watch how you treat His children. (those made in His image) Some of the questions I’ve had to ask myself is WHY I desire to commune with others. I’ve often found myself wishing to convert the sinner and be in the “in” crowd concerning the saint, but that’s the problem. The command is to love God with the extension of that being, to loving others. Loving or communing with others without ulterior motives is tough business for us, as we’ve been trained otherwise but when accomplished is a beautiful thing. We all have the same God, share the same blood and are in the same boat. We’ve also all been deceived and failed miserably, there’s some commonalities we can start with, even if we disagree. Mostly though I want to watch how I treat others because I’m engaging with one who is loved and desired by God Himself. Again, no answers, just some struggles that I’m sharing.
Thanks for the comment. I know that there are a lot of people out there that have the same struggles it’s not too unique. I do appreciate the words of encouragement.
Hi Derek S, this is the same experience my wife and I had after a lifetime of very active traditional church participation but a 1000 mile change in our lifestyles allowed us to reconsider our religious experience. We became more passive Sunday church attenders. This focused our attention on the sermons that we found unacceptably boring and meaningless so we left altogether.
We have moved on to service in other ways that most would see as secular but we don’t. This e-community manages to bring the biblical messages together in a much more meaningful way and between ourselves, our relationship has never been better in nearly 50 years.
I have had interaction with a number of friends who are traditional Christians and introduced them to Skip’s books and web site. The reaction is anywhere from; that’s interesting but my mind is made up already so why should I change to; WOW! That guy speaks to me like no minister I have heard. So you take what you get and leave the rest as Skip says.
Having said that, this winter in FL we are going to attend a Messianic Synagogue not far from our winter digs and see what how that goes. I know it is trinitarian but I can set that aside I think, we’ll see how that goes.
Shalom George and Penny,
So appreciate your comment. Thank you for sharing.
Firstly, I am new to most of you and I am thrilled to read the articulate, sincere and godly concerns laid out before me! Mr. Moen’s article reminds us that, “From fanaticism to barbarism is only one step.” There is a fine line between zeal and fanaticism, which ushers in cruelty and every evil work. This evidenced by John Calvin’s skill in finding that fine line. Can you mentally insert yourself into the scene of Michael Servetus’ death? It has been written that as they lit the flames, Servetus cried out, “Oh thou Son of the eternal God have pity on me.” One observer said, “We might have had pity on him if he had said, Oh Eternal Son of God.” I cannot relate to the type of person that mercilessly revels in the death of another human based solely on an opposing belief! Even the harshest of personalities are typically humbled at a funeral service or when faced with a somber scene involving death…if only from the standpoint of coming to terms with their own mortality!
In what would seem a wildly extreme comparison, I fully understand Moen’s modern day reference in terms of how we “roast” one another today. I am guilty of using words such as “pagan” in discussions with those that hold adverse views. (In fact I used it last week) I also realize how puffed-up, (as another gentleman described), I have been as I went through the “growing pains” from the zeal of a babe to the strength of a young woman. I can relate with the other sweet lady, that indicated none of us have all of the answers and that each of us learn in our own due time. To keep an open heart and mind and be prepared to learn or re-learn is most important. As another said, in the end, we all need love, compassion and grace. Love conquers all and love covers a multitude of sin.
In response to David Russell, my husband and I agree with you. It would seem that “true fellowship” or “unity in spirit” cannot be had with those who disagree on the seven “ones” as set forth in Ephesians 4:4-6. Can you achieve “unity in spirit” if you do not agree on: 1) one body; 2) one spirit; 3) one hope of our calling; 4) one Lord; 5) one faith; 6) one baptism and, 7) who the one god and father to all is? Here is a link to other verses emphasizing the importance of fellowship with those of “like-mind.” https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Unity/ “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (1 Corinthians 1:10) To us, there IS a difference between fellowship and “contending for the faith.” I am skeptical of the quality of “worship” one can share with those you perceive to be worshiping a false god or adhering to false doctrines.
I personally, feel like a bit of a whiner when I complain about not having group fellowship. Jesus said, “the servant is not greater than his master…and… the foxes have their holes and the birds have their nests, but the son of man hath no where to lay his head.” Despite having the twelve, Jesus still felt alone, just like we describe. Perhaps we all have this wilderness wondering (as the children of Israel) leaving behind the gods and doctrines of Egypt to help us focus on the one true God that delivered us. Why do we have this constant “longing” to teach others? I have changed my mind on so many things, who am I to fault another for not agreeing with me?
Life circumstances have kept my husband and I in a wilderness for the better part of 20 years. We only have each other for fellowship. (For this I am grateful!) I have learned a great deal from the desert. Namely, that God is sovereign and HE is the cartographer (map maker) who artistically designs who crosses our path and who we are given the opportunity to share the gospel, along with the many pearls we have found hidden in his Word along the way.
Welcome. I hope you find some true-hearted friends here
Thank you so much! I have already been richly blessed reading the post from these lovely sincere folks!
Gina I’m in tune with your words – mostly no fellowship except with my husband. I helping in local secular community. Felt the need to repent of complaint of no fellowship – given great shalom and many different people crossing our paths – we live it and say little but it took time for this attitude to be evident in my life! Blessings
I was asked to join a Bible study group by my next door neighbor who knew of my views on Torah and wanted me there to add those views to this Methodist group of brothers and sisters. He knew I had stopped attending church and why.
I brought with me a Shaman’s hat I had acquired in Mexico and when I was introduced to the group, I was asked about this hat I was holding. I told the story of how my wife and I spent months driving all over Mexico and one of our favorite past times was to visit the churches as we went. In one of the remote very isolated villages in the highlands of Oaxaca we stopped into the large Catholic Church that stood in the village center.
The massive old wood doors were cracked open a few inches so we slipped inside and found a large cavernous room that was so dark we had to wait for our eyes to adjust to the lack of light. Beneath our feet the floor was covered with pine needles. There were no pews and the air was thick with smoke. A few openings very high up in the walls allowed in small rays of light that streamed down intermittently.
As our eyes became use to the darkness we could see through the smoke haze several small areas of candles burning on the floor along the perimeter of the walls. At a few of the dozen or so places this was apparent, there sat a Shaman with another person opposing them in the dim lighting.
We walked closer in the ruse that we were observing the building interior itself and saw in some of these areas dead chickens, remnants of eggs, hand carved items, and discarded Pepsi bottles with some of them made into candle stands. One of the Shaman sprayed Pepsi from his mouth into the face of a woman. I walked forward to the massive alter with several large statutes of Jesus and Friars (one with an axe in his head) and found myself standing next to an indigenous woman who was totally collapsed in tears mumbling what seemed to be a prayer to the Jesus statute. I knew in this area of Mexico it was not a good thing to embrace someone who did not know you; especially a woman, and I resisted doing so.
Upon exiting the building I engaged a man as to the service this church provided. He pointed to several distant villages around this one where the churches were the only visible structure off in the horizon. He said there was one priest who served the people and would come to this village one Sunday every six weeks or so.
I asked the Bible study group I sat with if they found anything wrong with this scenario, was there room in the church for people who blended the God of Israel in with practices such as this. Most of them answered in the affirmative. Yes we should accept all into our fellowship that in some way joined in with the belief in our God.
My wife sat next to me in that group and she knew what was happening. She and I had stood outside that village church and talked about the northern Israel temples where Golden Calf’s were formed and displayed. We talked about Korah’s attempt to usurp the roles in the Mishkan. We discussed the warnings of joining in with pagan ritual worship and the Israelites never totally leaving God behind in doing so. We talked about our church back home and the denial of Torah application to those who were ‘no longer under the law’.
I told my neighbor, my friend, one whom I consider my brother; I could not continue to participate in fellowship with a group who denied the basic instructions of the God of Israel. My wife and I also left our church.
I don’t view those who hold a different view of ‘fellowship’ as my enemies, it is not hard to love them and I don’t do so because it is easy in those cases to love. But I don’t find it necessary to ‘fellowship’ with them to do so.
I think the real problem is that we have no good model of HOW to be salt and light. Therefore, we posture and persecute because that is what we had done to us, or at least modeled to us.
I have spent my lonely decades out in the wilderness, and, for better or worse, I think I may have learned a little, and perhaps unlearned a little more. As a good friend has said: “learning is hard; unlearning is harder”. Yep, it is hard to unlearn wrong ways to attempt to connect with others, and the way we got taught in the church to relate to the world has been the worst failure for me. It has NEVER worked. Just like the sermon model has never worked for teaching. I feel we were given battle axes for the purposes of subjugating instead of tools for relating. I also realized along the way that when I was having a hard time in the church, it didn’t have a good way to reach out to me then, either.
Unfortunately, my current models of how to relate to others as salt and light have all been people who were avowedly outside church walls, and the methods they employed would shock most church goers, I think. These were people who accepted others just where they were at and did not try to influence them or change them (forms of manipulation). They reached out to others BECAUSE of their needs, and did not use those vulnerable needs to further their own agenda. Indeed, they had none that I could ever tell. I resolved to try to learn how to love like that. WELL.
Unlearning is hardest. The hardest to drop was the superior “I am right and you are different from me, therefore you must be wrong” stuff. This is thinly veiled bigotry, which the world already employs extensively, so therefore recognizes for what it really is. The world knows that Christians are being hypocrites when they employ these attitudes, and so they are dunked before they start. I was trained to be a bigot! That was a hard lesson to learn.
I learned that others knew the truth about love, too. That was a shocker! Indeed, I have learned so much of what I know today about love from the avowed heathen, for the Spirit will teach all hearts that do not oppose Him. Because the lost world recognizes the fact that it is all in the same bad shape, for better or for worse, it does not judge. I said, it does not judge. One of the nicest reliefs I experienced out in that lost world was that it did not hold my inability to love against me. So many times, I found others sympathizing with me ever this, and lamenting with me in my own lostness. That one stuck the most. All lost people are stuck; they need to be delivered from their inability to love. I don’t know just where the church quit offering deliverance to the world in a way it could hear, but I can say, in my experience, this is where we should be in our sympathy and in what we have to offer. Freedom is precious, but, somehow, the Body must learn HOW to model freedom, and offer freedom, and BE freedom to others UNTIL they want it for themselves.
Perhaps when I get these skill sets learned, I will be brave enough to step back into the dark, stuck church where people are most resistant to the light because they think they already have it, and know how to deliver them, too. I am not brave enough yet! Y’all, the heathen are still easier to be around, for me. Still learning.
Hi Laurita, your stuck comments remind me of my father decades ago coming home from Sunday Mass muttering about the (stuck) priest, “another sermon about love. Hasn’t he got anything better to say” or words to that effect. I guess I inherited my curmudgeoness honestly. Penny’s opinion not mine.
George you know I value Penny’s opinion, too, and would not dare disagree with hers, either. However, I do think I am going to stop short of calling you a curmudgeon.
Laurita let’s me think of comments made by Yeshua.
I came not to rescue the righteous but the lost.
Is it not that the sick need the physician… Etc.
Paradigm 1
Those that go to church are righteous.
Paradigm 2
Those outside the church are sick…
Being salt is adding worth to the way things are being done. Not value but a Godly spice.
Being light is living in such a way that others ask, what must we do to be saved.
They are not choice activities but divine interventions using our bodies as the medium. Our reasonable walk of faith sacrifice our bodies for His purpose…
Seeker, our bodies are made for those purposes, no doubt, but I have noticed that I am required to be present in mine. It’s not exactly a zombie experience; on the contrary, these salt and light moments are when I truly get to become myself. It feels more like coming home to me. Halleluah!
Hello Skip and Others,
Conformity is a powerful noun and I think subtly regimented when practiced as a verb, as is its cousin inclusion. These are the buzz words in the “liberal American denominations.” Even bound conscience is subtly sneered at now, and Israel largely despised via recent church body resolutions.
Paul and Barnabas unfortunately are not providing a program of how they handled conflict resolution with one another. At best we can assert, they agreed to disagree.
Where do we draw the line then to fellowship together between brothers and sisters who “keep Torah” and those who say the “old covenant” and its strictures were simplified through Yeshua’s life, death and resurrection?
I wrestle with this very question. I can bite my tongue and allow you to assert your convictions, but then need to find a safe outlet where mine may be voiced, or I may be understood to cause discord in the “Sunday go-to-meetin” crowd.
A house divided will not stand!
If no one can serve two masters, perhaps they cannot pretend two sets of convictions either.
Perhaps I am missing your point Skip, and apologize if that’s the case.
Thanks for giving us plenty to consider!
David Russell
See, Russel, this is where the teachings of today have become so muddled. This whole ‘sowing seeds of discord’ is insidious teaching that sets the stage for control. Today’s churches corporations, not places of worship, set up to teach and ensure compliance.
As a called out individual there is no way you will ever be accepted or allowed to be in peace should you go there. It’s not worth your while. Not because you are better then those that attend, it’s just that you have nothing to contribute to where they are.
Your place, at this point, is to glorify YHVH and continue to learn how YOU can do so. That’s all. And yet, what more is there? Learning to vent to YHVH is a skill any of us could use more of. Again, “Son’s of Zadok” would be a great read for you.
Another good read for this situation would be Wade Burleson’s “Fraudulent Authority”; it’s Kindle only on Amazon, and it’s only 4.99. Excellent read. He has a blog
Wade is a Southern Baptist that holds decidedly different views from your own, however, he is also an astute historian and has insights similar to Skips. For the meager price of the read you will probably find it highly enjoyable.
Shalom bcp!
I would recommend “Sons of Zadok” too. I read it in my spiritual youth days a long time ago. It so inspired me. I will have to dig it out to re read it. Amazing that you are bringing back fond memories of the excitement of that book. And, I will go for the Wade Burleson’s Kindle read too. Thank you!
Good questions all, David. Historically, right about now, an element of purity would tend to stand up and challenge the status quo and the big guns of persecution would arise. Looking at my historical watch, it seems it could be about time, once again, for truth to make a stand and take away the current option of sitting on a fence. Um, who wants to go first?
Laurita you kill me. 3 sentences, 4 if you count the ones w/less then 10 words. Checkmate.
Bcp, I hope you would have been able to figure out by now that you are probably safe with me. How about let’s play the next round…
Shalom David, Rightly so, love the way you expressed this- ” I can bite my tongue and allow you to assert your convictions, but then need to find a safe outlet where mine may be voiced…” FREELY, to express the perspective/s we may have as an individual from where we are at on our spiritual journey, BUT, always with the right attitude of respect and humility towards others who may be reading, or responding to them.
That comes from an upright spirit. too.
Can’t get away with hostility, if we don’t heed the way we express particularly in written format, where pride and arrogance seeps right through..
You write well- ” perhaps they cannot pretend two sets of convictions either” , NO, can’t have two sets of convictions! Only ONE LORD YHWH, and one Master of the universe, the rest are Sons, bondservants to the Covenant of the Most High.
Love your comments. Blessings and shalom!
Hello Skip and others,
First, thanks for making the comment field accessible!
I wrestle with your reflection at the grass roots level. Paul and Barnabas apparently agreed to disagree and parted company. When do we do the same with our brothers and sisters who:
-Don’t keep Torah and exercise liberty;
-See Sabbath as a concept rather than a week day set aside to be kept holy;
-Include and conform are two verbs espoused, allow for LGBT lifestyle to be tolerated;
I could go on.
Yes, both sides play with fire to use your illustration from Calvin.
It grieves me when many claim the apostles wrote to Christians not believing Jews, or at least, believing Jews and Christians at specified locations.
The conform include camp largely despise Israel at present and that goes against the command to pray for the shalom of Jerusalem in Psalm 122.
So, yes, Skip, who calls cease fire and when do we put our match books down?
As Christianity comes in many stripes, Judaism too has its camps. I would welcome feedback with this issue of co-existence.
David Russell
No issue at all with the many stripes of both Christianity and Judaism. Today NEITHER reflects with circumstances in the first century. I have yet to find a community that does embrace what was certainly the case in the synagogues of Yeshua’s day. But I want to add this: tolerance of each person as uniquely loved by YHVH is NOT the same as tolerance of erroneous ideas heard by that person. I can show you love and compassion, care and benevolence and STILL demonstrate with history and exegesis that your position is wrong. But I WON’T WALK AWAY FROM YOU. If you decide to do that, then it wasn’t because I told you to. I am about pursing the truth – in context, culture, history and text – and if that isn’t where you are willing to go, then you will have to answer for your decision. This journey is not for everyone. Many have told me that they are comfortable with what they believe (so don’t push me any harder), but I don’t think that honors YHVH nor do I think it is honest about why we think as we do. I have recently experienced some of this and it is always shattering and discouraging. What I want is just to keep digging until I am sure I know what God has to say. That means turning over all the rocks, not having some that can’t be disturbed because someone in authority told me not to look.
Shalom Skip, You have thus clarified your stand on tolerance- ” I am about pursing the truth – in context, culture, history and text – and if that isn’t where you are willing to go, then you will have to answer for your decision.” And, it won’t be an easy choice (for me) of walking away from contention.
Thank you sharing your heart, as usual, on this.
To people inside the church, we now speak in a foreign tongue. That makes communication almost impossible with people who are not seeking truth outside of their Christianity box. One of my favorite quotes is from my friend, Bob Gorelik. He says that the hardest things to learn are the things you already know.
I don’t know if the separation between us and the church is what Skip is referring to here. Having been a part of the Shepherding Movement, the Word and Faith Movement, and the Charismatic Movement, most would label us a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement. Personally, I am less than enthused about being considered part of another movement. I just want to find the truth and walk in it.
Having said that, there are giant chasms of division among those of us who have chosen to walk the path of Torah. Meaningless arguments abound…calendars, sacred names, two house/one house…ad nauseum. There is a horrible viciousness among us that is frightening in its scope. Meaningful dialogue is scorned.
A year or so ago, Skip told me I was much too concerned about right and wrong. As I have mulled over that statement, I think I finally get what he was trying to tell me. We can all be “right” wherever we are on our journey. If we maintain a teachable heart God will correct us as we walk along the path. I find great freedom in this understanding. It frees me from comparing my journey with others and it frees others because I stop judging you if we don’t agree about some aspect of the journey. What is “right” for you might not be what is “right” for me but it’s ok…we can both be “right” and journey together.
Could not agree more
I quite going to church when i realized i was a) learning an entirely different religion then what i was finding in my local churches and b) a woman.
Actually, i already KNEW i was a woman, but BEING a woman in churches meant that anything i said would be immediately and easily discounted BECAUSE i am a woman. This was problematic for someone who loved to discover and then share. Ad nauseam. So. There were those two issues.
I have been in the desert for many years now, post divorce, and it has been a time of intense, even overwhelming grief for me. But now, more then ever before, i understand this: It isn’t what i say to any one that counts. It is WHY i say what i say, the counts. The spirit behind it. This makes it hard for me to interact here because i believe i am triune, Skip teaches the opposite. I don’t begrudge him his error (joke) i just don’t want to be immediately corrected.
I don’t care that you don’t agree with me, i don’t care WHY you don’t agree with me. I just don’t. If you ASK me, i will try to tell you. if i ask YOU, please be concise; if you can’t say it in three sentences or less, you don’t really know. That’s MY theory. I don’t mean that to be rude, i mean that i don’t want to be the person you expound all that you know about a subject so that you can prove to me that you are way more spiritual then i.
By ‘you’ i am not speaking to any one person in this group, i mean the other party i may be interacting with.
I have learned so many things from so many sources; even some that people automatically draw back from, with wide eyes and worried, pursed mouths. But i learned from these sources, even while not agreeing with all they presented. I even learn from a certain wandering jew, that i find abrasive at best but an amazing wealth of understanding, even tho i have to plan the time i spend listening to him. I like his perspective, even as i like and learn from Skip’s perspective.
I have some of Skips teachings on ALL of my listening devices and i have some areas marked, i know where they are and i have re-listened to them frequently. They are his older Biblical Worldview and Biblical Leadership. He states in Worldview almost a throw away comment, that in Judaism there are only 4 sects, in christianity there are 4,000.
The reason? Hebrews don’t disown their own over theology. They embrace the heretic and love them even as they roll their eyes (ever so respectfully). I’m ok being the heretic. I’m NOT ok with being smugged upon. I will snap those shorts in a second if i suspect that.
I have worked just as hard, if not harder, for what i believe as ‘you’ have, and i have to stand taller and be surer of who and what simply because of my gender. If that makes me slightly defensive, i own it. But don’t expect me to back down because you can drown me in words. Or scripture.
A little understood factoid that i have come to realize via my studies is this: those that YHVH calls to himself actually do walk alone. They just do. I know that Skip teaches that Judaism is about community, but YHVH is about one on one, my opinion. You and him. (i mean this ‘you’ to be YOU!) 😉
C. R. Oliver is a retired conservative christian. You can find his biography at http://www.zadokpublications.com/about_us.htm
You can find his book “Son’s of Zadok” either on his website (which helps pay his bills) or Amazon (if you are struggling to pay your bills). The most you will pay for it, either way, will be 10.00. It is money well spent if you want a comforting perspective on walking the tightrope many of us seem to be walking.
You are such a straightforward person, bcp, no beating around the bush with you; YET, not in the least bit offensive! I appreciate that frankness, a breath of fresh air. No pretenses. I see strength. Bravo.
…..those that YHWH calls to himself do walk alone….yes that is my experience over last 15+ years and it’s that walk that humbles and shows one how to walk with whoever crosses our path. Thanks for sharing.
What a timely message for me!! I JUST made an appointment to meet with my pastor today over an issue of broken fellowship between me and my small group at church over the meaning of, and how we should apply, Romans 13:1 in our culture/political system today in America, and specifically in light of the current election campaigning. The leadership of the small group apparently sees our (the “Christian citizens'”) role to not participate in the election and live at peace with (i.e. not disagreeing with) the results of the election. I find that terribly wrong for several reasons, but have been told under no uncertain terms to never bring it up again in the group – how’s THAT for “fellowship!?”
I thank God for the admonishment that I received through your treatise on unity and fellowship here, Skip. I’ve been seeing this issue as one of “reach agreement or go away,” and I couldn’t be more wrong! Regardless of how badly I think I’m being treated, the goal is fellowship, and in this case agreeing to disagree peacefully and still (otherwise to this issue) fully participating in the group. One woman in previous comment said how hard it has been for her to “un-learn” what she thinks she knows. Oh Sister! Indeed!!!
This is a good discussion. Everyone who has already commented here has said something worthwhile and helpful. How do we practice tolerance? One word. Love. Sometimes when I’m in a discussion with someone close to me, and we find we’re not in agreement, I’ll ask, “Do you love me anyway?” That never fails to bring a laugh and a hug.
Jesus at one time apparently had a great number of followers. Then a lot of them left, offended. We should not be surprised if we’re left with just a few with whom to fellowship.
Sometimes, for the sake of love, I just have to avoid certain subjects when talking with people who have vastly different beliefs from mine.
Because of multiple chemical sensitivity, I’m not able to go out and socialize much. I rely on the telephone for a lot of my fellowship. People from this website have kindly given me their telephone numbers and have become very dear to me. They have done me a world of good, and I thank God for them. Dawn, Michael, Laurita–thank you!
Thank you, everyone, for your comments. Just remember that word. Love.
This has become my heart’s desire as I live out the rest of my life- to love well! Everyone is on a journey. All at different places on that journey. All I have to do is remember where I was! And am now!
I shepherd a very small private, “Christian” school in my neighborhood. I teach Torah, the Feasts, Shabbat. None of the parents were aware of any of this until I began to teach it. I’ve gone through the loss of fellowship and support because of this. Not from the parents but from supporters who didn’t “agree” with me. It was hard! And then I pulled back from some groups because of the arrogance and “know-it-all” attitudes. 🙂 I fellowship on Shabbat with a very small group and on Sunday mornings with another very small group of “Christians” who I have journeyed with for a long time and still love me through the changes:) And I love them! And, YES, His Spirit meets with both groups!
Just this week, at our school, a young Muslim mom who I met several years ago, enrolled her children once per week for our art class. I have been watching YHWH order her steps for 2 years.It is amazing! Within, 2 minutes the Ru’ach opened the door for us to have a discussion about His Name, which she had already been introduced to! She actually stated that she feels more comfortable sending her children to a “Christian” school because she knows something about us. My prayer is that I just love her well. And HE will do the rest in her life:)
Always love the calls, Thomas. And you and Deb, too.
Then Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?” “No one, Lord,” she answered. “Neither do I condemn you, Jesus declared. “Now” go and sin no more.
In essentials unity, In non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.
I am horrified to hear of Calvin’s heinous act upon Michael Servetus, and I will say two things concerning this. Number one, first and foremost, this is NOT the mind of Christ!! WWJD does apply here as it does everywhere, every time and in every place. Calvin was not only wrong, but grievously wrong!! Secondly, a reminder.. – we must [and will] ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad! (2 Corinthians 5.10) In other words, – nobody gets away with doing what is wrong, and there will be rewards for doing what is right! Word up! The day of judgment is at hand!
We would all do well to remember: An unforgiving spirit is unforgivable!
We may not burn people at the stake today, but there are worse long lasting methods of torture. I’ve met someone who said it was okay to disagree. This person could handle others not agreeing with them but if I did, this person would deal out intense persecution. It is not unusual to be called into a pastor’s office to be disciplined, temporarily exiled, or permanently kicked out of a church or fellowship for not believing or agreeing with someone. If methods of persecution aren’t enough to get someone to leave on their own, he will up the ante to put you out. It helps when he bears false witness against the “heretic.” He even convinces others to join in and do the same. Eventually, enough of the brothers and sisters turn away from the heretic so he stands alone, ashamed, confused, emotionally distraught, and possibly even suicidal. You may as well die in order to be put out of your misery. Fortunately, there are people who might come to your rescue, but they are few and far between. Wolves in sheep’s clothing like these need to be booted out of the assemblies if they are going to brutally attack and slaughter God’s people who are searching for truth. These kind of people need to repent and get along with people who have differing opinions. Believe me, I know what I’m saying…I’ve been there, experienced that.
Sounds like you speak from the same personal experience that i have, and gotten the same results.
I no longer believe that we reap what we sow in this lifetime. We reap what other’s have sown, and we are expected to stand in it and have impeccable, holy response. It took a while, but in the end, i failed.
Prayers, Beth
Yes, that about sums it up…
I have found that walking in Torah amongst my brothers and sisters speaks much much louder than words. You reach some others not. You are singing my song Skip. After all they all belong to the Jewish Messiah we follow and as such we should treat them. I attend both church and a Messianic Fellowship. Both know I attend the other and there is no hostility on either side. Walk through the open doors, pray about the closed doors and as a friend says work with the sheep and pray for the goats. Trust me there are hungry sheep EVERYWHERE- be patient and you will find them.
Another view: “Do not think that I came to send peace on the earth. I did not come to send peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man at variance against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man’s foes shall be those of his own household.” “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on the earth? I tell you NO but rather division. For from this time on there shall be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three.” Yeshua (Matt. 10:34- 36; Luke 12:51 – 53)
Yeshua made it plain that these kind of problems would be rampant within the body of believers but to balance this sad, negative picture we must exercise patience and mercy with each other but not confuse that with tolerance that gives license to lawlessness. We all need to learn to “love our neighbor as ourself” in the process of “loving God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind.”
There also needs to be a squelching of pridefulness that refuses to look at the beliefs of others through the lens of Torah and Yeshua’s teaching. We tend to hold onto traditional mistruths and errors which were previously handed down to us instead of letting God cleanse us through the voice of a caring brother or sister. When someone disagrees we need to use our manners and “speak the truth in love”. (Eph. 4:15)