Mysterious Confusion (Rewind)
“Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish.” Jonah 3:9 NASB
May turn – Rabbi David Aaron addresses the difference between Jews and Christians on the subject of prayer in his online article, “Why Do We Pray?” In that article he states the Jews do not pray. On the contrary, Jews become hit’palel, that is, they engage in the reflexive act of changing themselves to conform to the sovereign will of YHVH. Rabbi Aaron considers prayer as “trying to get Yehovah to want what I want, to change His mind and to want what is on my mind.”[1] This, he suggests, is strictly impossible. He argues, “But, what would it mean for an Omniscient being to get new information? And what will it mean for Yehovah who transcends time to change? Change only occurs in time, but Yehovah transcends time. How could an Omniscient being change?” Therefore, the purpose of the actions we typically associate with prayer has nothing to do with God. It is about our “personal transformation.” To put it bluntly, when we communicate with an immutable, omniscient deity, we do so (perhaps without knowing it) in order that we undergo some form of therapeutic personal adjustment. The action affects us, not God. This is why, according to Rabbi Aaron, Jews do not pray. They do not seek to change the immutable will of YHVH. Instead, they enter into an adjustment ritual.
What do you think about Rabbi Aaron’s argument? How does it make you feel? Are you making a mistake to believe that your prayers actually affect God? Would you continue to pray (or practice hit’palel) knowing that all that is really happening is personal therapy without the hourly rate? Once again we find that this rabbi, along with dozens of Christian theologians, follows the logic of suppositions about time, omniscience and divinity to their conclusions—and ends up in a place that is contrary to virtually all the interaction between God and men that we find in Scripture. The logic is correct, but the premises are wrong. This is a case of believing my theology rather than the biblical text. Anyone can make this mistake, Jew or Christian, but the conclusion should raise big red flags. Frankly, if prayer is nothing more than disguised therapy, I would rather go to the shrink. At least I could have a dialogue.
Where does Rabbi Aaron err? According to the king of Nineveh, repentance and prayer change God’s mind. In fact, the whole story of Jonah is based on the premise that Jonah knows God may change His mind and Jonah doesn’t want that to happen. Rabbi Aaron errs when he supposes that an omniscient being is “outside” of time and therefore cannot learn anything new. But such a being is also, logically, completely disconnected from any actions taken by men. He is ultimately transcendent, not involved, not subject to alterations in circumstances here on earth (or anywhere else). Once again we see the Greek concept of time enter the picture. Defining time as a measure of physical change while contending that God cannot change leads to prayer as psychotherapy—and pretty useless at that. When the king of Nineveh uses the Hebrew verb shuv he does not mean that God has transcendentally determined before the creation of time the outcome of all earthly events. He means exactly what he says. God may change His mind. The argument for this theological position is complicated*. But this much seems clear. God can and does change His mind, and quite frankly, I for one am very glad He does.
The rabbi suffers from mysterious confusion. Having committed himself to a Greek conception of God and time, he ends on the therapist’s couch. How God ever does anything in the world remains a great mystery. The fact that we think God interacts with the world remains a great confusion. But for $100 an hour I can explain to you why you are so deluded—and you can stop praying.
Topical Index: prayer, Rabbi David Aaron, time, omniscience, Jonah 3:9, shuv, hit’palel
*The full argument for a temporal God is given in my book God, Time and the Limits of Omniscience.
[1] Rabbi David Aaron, “Why Do We Pray?”, p. 2
I would think that we need to be like David on this subject of praying… “A man after God’s own heart”…
What does that mean? David the one who killed another man because of that man’s wife? A man after God’s own heart?
Then we read the full statement: “After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’” Acts 13:22
From man’s point of view (following Jonah and Nineveh’s story), God may change His Mind over a decree… but I think is an interaction between God and man… when someone does return (shuv) to God’s own heart, to do His Will, man is the one who truly is changing… and God is willing to accept man’s return to Him… changing a decree…
By the way… I think Rabbi David Aaron’s point of view on the wrong approach on praying about “trying to get Yehovah to want what I want, to change His mind and to want what is on my mind” is right… that I would say is the definition of idolatry.. trying to have a superior power to solve one’s chaos is idolatry… which is a definition I have learn from Skip…
On the other hand, I think that Rabbi David Aaron’s argument goes too far by saying that “God may not change His Mind because He transcends time”…
Like I said, I think is a matter of interaction between man who has to change himself to meet God’s will, and God moving His Heart towards a man who does return to Him… shuva…
“At least I could have a dialogue.” Nail on the head again, Skip.
. How many adolescents (in particular) complain that their parents are not listening to them? Don’t really HEAR them when they do engage? What do they mean by HEAR? I suspect that they may mean more of what YHVH means by that word. To hear, says the Shema, is to obey. To obey is to conform; to meet another where they are at. When children need to be heard, they need to be met where they are at. Parents bristle because they know full well (as do children) that to do that would be, in a sense, to ‘obey’, or, conform, to their child. Well!
But the Word tells us that YHVH hears us. Same “hear” as when we hear Him. Two way exCHANGE that changes both. A running dialogue, in fact, as the Creator is actively engaged in His creation; He influences it, and it likewise informs and influences Him. I am stuck in the middle of this and have been for some time. Function is not a static state: function is continuous responsiveness (um, that would be CHANGE) on both ends (and only when you have more than one end, incidentally). Unity, or, oneness, is also only possible when you have more than one, also, by the way.
I am quitting right where I have my headache, y’all. It feels great in all other ways, but my head simply cannot follow. Yet. Must be time to change my head. WAIT, the best way to do that is to go have another exCHANGE with heaven!
SOOOOOO many stories in scripture show a God who wishes to engage and involve his people in the process of establishing His Kingdom. So many passages refer to God relenting, repenting, or changing his mind (obviously not repent as in from sin but to do a 180 degree turn) so to believe anything else is to simply ignore the words of God for the sake of your theology that was supposed to be constructed by that very word!
I have heard the argument that God basically has “his mind made up UNLESS” …meaning that God always leaves room for us to change his mind, giving us the ability to participate. Then in that case he never really “changed” but rather gave an If/Then conditional. Not sure how I lean but part of me seems to side with the idea that there are actually limits to omniscience. Perhaps even limits set by God himself for the sake of relationship.
When anyone gives him or herself to God, it’s because God has drawn them to Himself.
That’s what He does. He’s gentle, subtle, yet ever so powerful in calling the callable.
Prayer is like breath — it’s the holy communion of engaging in unity and purpose.
Being one with the Father is why we were created. Recognizing that, is why we are
pressing toward the goal utilizing His gift of faith whereby we become partakers
of the divine nature.
Wow! I listened to the audio of this just yesterday and was struck with the same thoughts that Skip had. However, I wasn’t able to really articulate it that well. At first I honestly thought maybe I was wrong to think that YHWH can change His mind! Rabbi Aaron seems very confident about his conclusions! Then I remembered too many verses that say otherwise! Thank you Skip!
There is AUDIO!?!
Leslie, the audio/video is on AlephBeta.org. It is under the “Popular” category titled “If God Knows All, Why Do We Pray.” There are three parts totaling about 26 minutes.
Lesli, sorry about the misspelling of your name.
Thank you! I just got an email! I will look!
In one sense Yah does not need to change because He has already stated His perfect will for us in the Torah. There is no need to ask Yah: ” May I (please) commit adultery with Bathseba and murder Uriah? The answer will always be “NO!” So on the one hand He is inflexible and it is we who must practice hit’palel to conform to His right ways as revealed in Torah. On the other hand there is the daily unpredictable choas presented to us (and God) in life that does require continous adjustment (sometimes just to stay alive). That is where our prayers, pleas, and cries to Yah cause Him to be moved to move heaven and earth, if necessary, to save us.
The few times I went to therapy I wasn’t’ sure who needed the therapy more, me or the therapist. The therapist got the cash and I went away generally with the same problem. I have also seen a few therapists attempt to be “Christian” therapists. I understand their good intentions but, in the end, it is the Lord Himself who truly rescues us. This Rabbi seems like a Greek Stoic to me.
We know the resurrection was about power and authority, so prayer also is about power and authority, all based on relational positioning. The Universe is under a legal system in which we chose to align, surrender, and bind our “will” with the kingdom of light. How much can you “see”? Do you have an ear? What do you know that was once hidden?
Where do we get anything of any value at all? He guards His treasures very well, He knows the hearts that He can trust and those are the ones He reveals Himself and His Kingdom to.
He doesn’t brag about His treasures and expose them to the unbeliever. He has set in place a pattern, a blueprint to Mt Zion, perfect equality, “Who Loves Me? Climb the Hill of the Lord, through communion, (prayer) He will not disappoint you-He might offend you momentarily, but there is no end to His depth or treasure.
Never been to therapy- learned from my mother to run to Abba- He hears and answers for sure. The answer may not always be what I expect however with David I say: ” Hear my words Adonai, consider my groaning. Listen to the sound of my cry for help, my King and my God, for I pray to you. Adonai in the morning you hear my voice. In the morning I order my prayer before you and wait expectantly”
Psalm 5:2-4
Does God actually change His mind? In this debate, Nineveh is the favourite go to story; but did God change His mind or did the people of Nineveh?
IF Nineveh had shunned Jonah and remained evil and yet God repented and saved the city, THEN we would have seen real significant change on God’s part, but OTHERWISE we just have another story of God’s unchanging mercy toward repentant (changing) sinners. What’s new?
What concerns me is that if the Hebrew God is capable of real change, then He sounds like any other Greek god, of whom we never knew what he was going to do next.
But maybe God does change His mind. Maybe Israel is no longer God’s chosen. Seems to me He has been favouring the Greeks of western culture for the last two thousand years. Maybe He has changed His mind about His Law. Seems to me that He has accommodated Sunday for the last seventeen hundred years rather patiently. Maybe abortion is acceptable now. Maybe same sex marriage too. They are more and more mainstream around the world. Is He OK with them now?
Or, are you going to tell me that God changes, but only in ways acceptable to you? How do you control that? How can you assure me His changes will always be benevolent toward us? Do we want to gamble on HOW He will change? Maybe He will break His promises. Maybe He will decide to throw all of us into the Lake of Fire and start over again. Where does His change end?
Or would you rather stick with an unchanging God?
Hey, Dan, you brought out a fascinating distinction. Is change about character or action? God does not change His character, which the Law embodies, for sure. No one should argue that. About Nineveh, He gave two options, they were the ones that changed. Great observation, by the way.
BUT, actions are different. I drive down the road according to law, but when a deer crosses it in front of me, I swerve, and try to avoid oncoming traffic and the ditch, too. The law did not change, and neither did my agreement with it, but the circumstances came up. I see many ancient observances that were meaningful in those societies not applicable now as we have other ones that carry those meanings now. I think it was C.S. Lewis that pointed out the difference between modest, chaste dress codes in, say, Victorian England and the South Pacific isles, but modesty was still the norm.
We need to continue this one.
Hi Laurita, I trust you are well.
“Is change about character or action?”
You say they are different, but to the contrary, I am under the impression that most at this website insist that actions ARE character and our character is displayed in our actions. I am thinking that that is one of the main differences between thinking like a Greek and acting like a Hebrew. In Hebrew thinking, actions = character.
Therefore, God can no more change His laws than He can His character.
In your analogy, you swerved and broke the law. If a truck was to your left and a cliff was to your right, you would have paid the penalty and died. But there was no truck or cliff. Do you believe that was by the grace of God or just luck? Do you thank God or, believe He had no idea what was going to happen and so it was out of His control anyway?
I myself would thank God.
I don’t doubt, that through prayer, God can grant us our petitions but is God changing His mind? No, God invites us to ask and has always been open to our requests. Does He always grant them? No. Can we explain why? (Ask Job.) No.
So, does God change? Maybe the question is too obtuse. I don’t believe God is an immutable machine but to say God changes without putting any restrictions on the amount and value of the change opens the door to such rash speculations as in my above post. I think we need to rein the question in a little.
Still, no matter how much you pray, you are still going to die and lose every earthly thing you love and hold dear. That doesn’t change – but neither does God and His promise.
Ps. 18:25 “With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; 26With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.”
So, is YHVH “merciful” or is He “froward”? And does He flip back and forth? Is His character merciful, or is it forward? And how can He be BOTH?
I bought 2 old cars, hoping to use one to fix the other, but dependent upon my 3 sons to help me. None were so inclined, so the cars sat, and I depended upon borrowed vehicles for a year. This week, while my brother is helping me, I announced that, because I could not have my cars sitting around trashing the place, I was going to haul them off for metal scrap. My youngest son decided he had a better idea, and started turning a wrench. Now I have a dilemma. He is fixing one car using the other one because he wants me to have a car, and also because he is grateful that he can use the transmission out of one of them to replace his failing one. Do I keep my word and haul everything to the dump today (which is my announced D-day), or do I honor his efforts, as he has now doubled the value of one of my cars, and hold off to let him do the rest of the work he wants to do? What would be most in line with my character? To go back on my word, or honor my son’s new position?
I say the MEANING of actions can change. What was righteous yesterday, given the variables, may be unrighteousness today. I am going to the dump next week.
I would put that in the If/Then Conditional category of God “changing”. It’s the idea that a statement of “I will destroy this city” has an unspoken clause at the end of it: “Unless”. If you repent, then I will not do that which I have plans to do.
Now we are down to defining “change”. What, exactly, is change?
Would it be change of status, ‘substance’ (whatever that is), essence (whatever that is), identity? That is how I read a Greek type definition, anyway.
OR, would change be defined by choice? For example, no change (such as what clothes to wear for the weather) unless new or different choice (of clothes, which would be dependent upon what the weather was, then, and not what the wearer was)?
YHVH says “I change not”. Does that mean He never chooses anything, or would that possibly mean that He does not ever choose out of His character; or, identity? For example, the choice of what clothing is appropriate for the weather is dependent upon the weather, not the character of the person.
What does the Bible mean by the word? If He is involved with His creation, He is responsive (change) to it; He makes choices that are dependent upon what that creation chooses. That does not mean He is necessarily choosing against His character; it might just mean that we do not understand what the relationship between choice and change actually is.
If God changed His mind, did He know He was going to change His mind. Most believers agree that God knows all, past, present and future. If He knew He was not going to destroy Nineveh at that time was He lying or just condescending to a level that Jonah could relate to. In any event, anyone who wants can find scripture to confirm that God knows all, God does not lie and God does not change His mind; the real issue is believing them.When I have trouble reconciling the clear declarations of God I refer to Rom 9:20 O man, who are you that replies against God? And then I continue to pray for more spiritual understanding.