Pavia: History and Faith – An Opening Dialogue

A few days ago I posted some off-hand remarks about paintings on a wall in a church in Pavia.  The flood of reaction was interesting.  Almost all of it was about the “accuracy” of biblical history.  Some readers were so upset they determined to leave the community.  Others were challenged to rethink their assumptions.  I am always a bit surprised when my remarks touch such sensitive theological nerves, so I thought it might be useful to have more discussion about this concern.

 

Let’s talk about history. Let’s talk about the way we view history, the importance we give to it and the answers we expect to find from it. But, first, let’s talk about the paradigmatic nature of history.

For starters, history is an invention of the Hebrews. Before the Hebraic view, Man was concerned with what Maurice Eliade calls, “the myth of eternal return.” Before the Hebrews, we just went around in a gigantic circle, always returning to the primal beginning, starting over. We have remnants of this idea in contemporary life. New Year’s celebration, birthdays, yearly religious rituals, etc. all keep the “circle of life” going. But the Hebrews changed that. They invented the idea that time is going somewhere; it is not just an endless circle, it has a purpose and destination. In Hebrew literature, this destination is the Messianic Age. Events proceed in the direction of this conclusion. What we do actually matters because it is not simply the repetition of all that has come before.

Of course, you can find elements of both of these views of time (circular and progressive) in the Bible. Ecclesiastes is an example of “nothing new under the sun.” Isaiah is not. The point is that the evidence of historical events doesn’t determine direction. We can see the events as part of a circle or we can see them as directionally unique. The choice is determined by the paradigm. In other words, how we see the events is not built into the events themselves. This should be patently obvious. If the events of history were self-interpretive, then anyone who examined those events would come to the same conclusions about the meaning of those events. But this is not the case, even for the people who experienced the events. We need only consider Peter’s explanation of the events in Acts 2 to notice that the events themselves did not force uniform conclusions. In order for history to have meaning, it must be interpreted. How it is interpreted is a function of the paradigm of the author, the audience or the reader.

This introduces another important element in historical investigation. History is typically written by the winners. History is not the complete catalog of everything that ever happened. The victors determine what is recorded as important. Other things are ignored. This means that historians select events based on their paradigmatic view of what matters. No one really cares about the growth of wheat in the twenty-third acre of Sam Jones’ farm in Iowa unless an historian decides that this particular acre has significance. Then it matters.

The Bible is filled with this kind of selectivity. For example, Matthew deliberately modifies the genealogy of the Messiah in order to make it fit a prior paradigmatic commitment to gematria. No scholar doubts this. It is easily confirmed. Some scribe in later centuries added words of Trinitarian theology to what the King James version printed as 1 John 5:7. No scholar doubts this either. The list could be expanded. Every apostolic author either modifies, selects or re-translates cited passages from the Tanakh in order to make those passages fit the present context or argument of the author. This was completely typical because these authors (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc.) were not interested in accurate citations of the Tanakh. They were interested in getting across their points, and if that meant changing a bit of the text, that was perfectly acceptable. They were not trying to fool their audiences. They were simply doing what everyone knew they were doing, that is, following the acceptable cultural rules for use of the Tanakh in rabbinic context. They were writing according to their culture, not ours! As soon as we force their writings to fit our ideas of accurate citation, we create conflicts that did not exist in the authors’ minds.

The point we’re making is this: the doctrine of inspiration associated with conservative Christianity recognizes these facts but says very little about their implications. Instead, the doctrine is supported by the claim that a sovereign God would not allow deliberate “mistakes” and misrepresentations in the sacred text. As a result, most believers have no idea that the text actually contains alterations and manipulations. They choose not to believe this because they have predetermined to believe the doctrine. The question is why?

I suggest that one of the principal reasons we hold on to a doctrine of inspiration that ignores the implications that the authors of Scripture had political and personal agendas that caused them to selectively alter the text in both citations and events is because we are products of a Western worldview. Fundamental to that worldview is the idea of certainty. We believe wholeheartedly that if something is true then it is always true and can never be otherwise. Furthermore, we believe that the Bible fits this definition of truth, and since its ultimate author is God, it is therefore guaranteed to be true. The idea of certainty is foundational to our Christian doctrine of inspiration. It claims that because God speaks the truth and the Bible is His word, the Bible must be absolutely true. The Bible must be certain. It cannot be doubted without serious jeopardy to the soul because doubting the words of the Bible is the equivalent of doubting God.

This is why conservatives play the “original documents” card when confronted with copy errors in the fragments, and why they dismiss the textual evidence of altered citations in the apostolic material. The claim of total accuracy cannot be established on the basis of any of the texts we have today, so it is projected into the ancient past to documents that we do not have. The justification of this attribution of total accuracy to documents that cannot be examined is based on a presupposition, a theological idea, not on evidence.

When it comes to history, the debate gets much more intense. It’s one thing to say that if we had the original documents all the copyist errors would be removed or that the textual alterations of the apostolic authors were simply citations from the LXX, but it’s quite another to say that the accounts of Solomon’s wealth and power are not supported by any archeological evidence so far. That causes panic in a world were the Bible must be certain and true. It results in considerable effort to re-date the archeology and/or claims that we just haven’t looked hard enough (that is, the real evidence that would support the biblical record is still buried somewhere in the sand). It’s possible that continued archeological investigation will confirm Solomon’s 37 trillion dollars in gold, but the idea that the text must be regarded as true even though no evidence has been found is a paradigmatic commitment based on a theological idea. The problem is not the evidence or lack of evidence. The problem is the paradigm that generates this kind of commitment.

This is not a trivial issue. For most conservative Christians, the veracity of the Bible is an “all or nothing” deal. If what the text tells us about the conquest of Canaan in the book of Joshua is not factually accurate, then the whole Bible is suspect. And since the faith of most believers in anchored in the book, the certainty of faith collapses if the book isn’t absolutely accurate. It is little consolation that Joshua’s account might not be historically accurate given the time and the audience of the author. If Joshua isn’t true, then God didn’t oversee the account to guarantee it, and consequently, the same might be said of all the rest of the biblical text. Suddenly our insistence on certainty is shaken. We don’t know what to believe. This threat usually pushes us to dismiss all scholarly historical inquiry and retreat to a pre-determined faith based on faith. “I’m comfortable with what I believe,” is the siren call of those who no longer desire to investigate.

We should notice, however, that the Tanakh does not even have a word for certainty. The idea of absolutely indubitable evidence is a Greek idea. It stems from the Greek conflation of mathematics and reality. In other words, the Greeks attempted to reduce the external world to mathematical conformity. And in mathematics, some things are absolutely certain. Therefore, if our worldview is based in the idea that mathematics is the true language of the universe, we will inevitably be drawn to the conclusion that events in the world are best described with the same terms as mathematics. The long philosophical history of the “problem of the external world” is witness to the effort of Greek thinking to reduce the world to mathematical structure. Because this effort has been so successful in producing technological advances, we think that it must be true. In other words, we think that the cell phone (which is based on mathematical algorithms) is an accurate representation of the world, to stretch the point.

But Eastern thinking, and in particular Middle Eastern Semitic thinking (like the Bible), does not share this view of reality. Richard Nisbett’s book goes a long way to show that even in the contemporary world, Eastern thinking is much more holistic. It embraces contradiction as a part of the much larger view of causal influence. It is far less concerned with concepts like certainty than it is with problems of behavioral choice. In fact, Moses’ declaration, “Choose life,” should probably be written with the emphasis on the word “Choose” rather than on the word “life.” Why? Because in the East, what matters most is the choice to believe, not the “evidence” that compels believing. An Easterner could not write a book titled “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” because for an Easterner, evidence doesn’t demand anything. The critical element is not the evidence but rather the choice initiated by the experience and the evidence. Easterners are concerned about how to live, not about why we believe. Apologetics is a Greek endeavor.

Try reading the Bible from the perspective of the authors, all of whom were Eastern, Semitic thinkers. Instead of compilations of facts used to argue for propositional doctrines and confessions, the text is about determining the proper course of action in the world. That means that the text is concerned with the sitz im laben of the audience, that is, what was happening to the people who were the intended hearers of these words. The text is an effort to change their choices. If we miss this point, we will read the text out of context. For Easterners, history is not a recollection of events. It is an effort to understand what those past events mean to us now! We should notice that the men whom Peter confronted do not ask, “How did this happen?” They ask, “What does this mean?” They are from the East, not the West.

So now the critical question, the one that makes Western thinkers so upset. “Did the events in the Bible really happen?” Notice how Greek this question really is? It assumes that the biblical record must describe past events with historical accuracy. But that assumption already includes the Greek idea of history. If the Easterner answers, “What does it matter?” the Western thinker throws up his hands and raves about certainty and accuracy. In other words, the Westerner retreats to the paradigm, not realizing that the Easterner’s statement is not about the accuracy of the text but rather about the application of the message to behavior. Does it matter if the events actually occurred? Of course it matters, but for the Easterner it matters because the events give instruction about how to live, not because they portray some external observer’s recording of temporal occurrences. The Bible is not the evening news. The stories in the text are more than a record of events. They are insights into human behavior and it is this element that comes forward in Eastern thinking. There is a good reason why Jewish thought deals with ethics rather than apologetics.

Western believers will be distressed by this explanation. They will insist that the focus must be on the historical accuracy of the record. They will read the text according to their paradigmatic presuppositions and conclude that if all we have are stories of insights into human interactions with God, we have no sure foundation for belief. The Easterner, of course, will point out the “all or nothing” fallacy in this reaction. But it won’t do much good. Why? Because as long as we approach the text from the perspective of the West, we will fail to see its fuller impact. We will be caught in our own concerns about Western ideas of truth, accuracy and certainty. We will actually worship the text rather than the God revealed in the text. We will be incapable of understanding the faith of Abraham, a man who had no text at all. For the West, belief is a function of propositional accuracy, not devotion to a relationship. Heschel pointed this out years ago when he remarked that Christianity was a creedal religion, not a relational experience.

Can we now see that this insistence on Western ideas of history is a function of the paradigm? Can we now appreciate that Eastern thinkers are much more concerned with the relationship than the accuracy? Can we embrace the thought that accuracy is secondary?

Or does all this still make you feel so uncomfortable that you just want to pretend the Bible is a special book guaranteed to be historical accurate because God said so?

I am sure that many readers will still want to know if my thoughts are aligned with their thoughts.  They will want to know if I think that the events in the Bible really happened.  They won’t be satisfied until they know that I hold the same view of historical accuracy that they do.  So if I write, “Yes, I do believe that the gospel accounts speak about events that really occurred in the life of the Messiah,” they might be less fearful.  But if I write, “I’m not so sure about the details in the life of David and Solomon,” they will feel the need for Western history pressing upon them.  But I’m not here so that you can be assured that what I believe is the same as what you believe.  I’m here to investigate!  I’m here to look deeply into those assumptions we make about what we believe and ask why we believe these things.  In the end, we probably believe the same things about biblical history, but I want to understand why we believe these things.  I want to know why we choose to believe, not just what we believe.  If that’s not sufficient for you, then you will need to find another way.  That’s okay too.  Every path is a bit different even if they are all in pursuit of the same goal.

 

 

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Laurita Hayes

Thank you, Skip!

Richard Bernstein writes, in his book review of Philip Roth’s book Shop Talk “Years ago, when the cold war was in full rage, it was Philip Roth who, in one shining epigram, summed up the essential difference between East and West. ”There nothing goes and everything matters,” he said, the ”there” in question being Czechoslovakia, which he first visited in the early 1970’s; ”here everything goes and nothing matters.””

We might find ourselves fighting about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin while Constantinople burns if we are not careful., or find ourselves “tithing mint, dill and cumin” while leaving undone “the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy and faith” (Matt. 23:23).

Interesting that you would bring up the comparison of mathematical certainty and Gematria AND the geneology of Matthew. I find it interesting that, in the interests of satisfying the mathematical certainty of Gematria that geneology sacrifices the messiness of historical accuracy. There are missing generations, and in crawling around looking for why I have found some interesting observations, to say the least. I found myself asking WHY ARE THESE THINGS SO? LOL! Such fun!

Herod asked Yeshua “what is truth?” and I hope that we could ask the same here, instead of just assuming that it ‘merely’ consists of mathematical certainty or historical ‘accuracy’ while ignoring those “weightier matters”.

One thing I am becoming more sure of these days is that the dimensions in which full function fuses all the resources and interest of heaven with the minutest detail of cosmic life lie far beyond the few dimensions in which we can perceive and operate in reality. I suspect that time (fourth dimension, and the dimension that history is dependent on) as well as math (not sure which dimensions numbers are relevant in; perhaps just the third one – help, somebody!) are NOT the end-all be-all of ‘truth’ that encompasses the reality of heaven, in which all dimensions reside, and perhaps even beyond those dimensions, too. We really can get hung up on our own myopic belly button gazing at the expense of the wider implications of reality (which I am convinced is what truth actually is).

Kevin Rogers

Excellent, thank you Skip for taking the time to explain that, it helps me move East .

Alfredo

Interesting… I did not have time to view comments on Pavia’s original post. Now that I do, I find interesting the whole thing.

I guess we all need to “take a look at the whole forest instead of only one tree” (sorry, english is not my first language, so I don’t know exactly how this saying about forests and trees goes in english, but I hope anyone can understand what I’m trying to write)

Richard Gambino

“for they received the word with [l]great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.” Oh, to be Berean. I suspect the eagerness those people studied the scriptures with was born on a desire to know God the best they could and a fear that they may not. I for one am not of the mind that our understandings of scripture aligns with each other because that to me means we would never know if we missed something. It’s what I don’t know that I come here for and that includes everything I know.

Cheryl Olson

Thanks Skip!
You know this has been my struggle as of late but long before your pictures were posted. Why I believe what I believe is at the core of my search. What will I count on? My belief in the text or my belief in God? Is He real? Did He do what the bible says He did? Does He get imtimately involved in human life? That is the depths of this quest for me. The idea that I am left alone to deal with this world on my own is terrifying to me and whether the text is “accurate” or not is not the real concern that I have. I want to know that God is who I think He is and trust Him to be. How do I know that, if not by understanding the text correctly? That is the big question isn’t it? How do I become Abraham? From my understanding tradition holds he was an amazingly hospitable person. Maybe that should our goal???
Great timing for me on this discussion. I choose to believe that God had His hand in the timing of all of this in my life ; )

Michael Stanley

Cheryl, To maybe assist you in your Abrahamic quest allow me to quote a passage from my favorite author, friend and mentor… a fellow named Skip.

“I often wonder what trusting YHVH was like for Abraham. He had no text, no prior history, no ancient rituals, no extended community to lean upon. He had a calling—and an intermittent encounter with YHVH, with years of silence, with requests to give away all that he longed for and lots of falling. Could I have such a faith? Could my relationship survive, let alone grow, in that environment? Or do I have to have the right answers, the correct doctrines, the extended community, the trappings of religion? And if I do have to have these, what is my relationship to the Lord really all about? When did I last fall into His presence, feel myself slip into the spaces between words and know that He is God?”
Dec 4, 2015 FALLING DOWN

Gayle

This post made me laugh – at myself. The most obvious example of this in my own ‘history,’ is the story of Ruth. As a youngster, I romanticized it. After I became an adult, whenever the passage, in Ch 1 v 16 (“But Ruth said, “Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.”) was read, I would cringe. Why? Because we are never TOLD what God Naomi worships. The lack of detail and identification in the text leaves it wide open. I STILL have a problem with this passage, even though it is taught each year! The good thing is that it makes me realize my own issues… 🙂

George Kraemer

HI Gayle, you might want to read The Ruth-like Church by Matthew Wilson. I think you will really enjoy it. Dan and I bought it from Skip in Sarasota when Matthew was attending one of Skip’s presentations.

Gayle

Thank you, George. I looked online for this book, and I cannot find where it is still available. Can you tell me if there is a website listed in it that I might locate a copy that way? I appreciate this recommendation!

George Kraemer

I tried to do the same Gayle, unsuccessfully. I don’t know how Skip established his relationship with Matthew. He did not speak at the meeting, just donated some copies of his book with proceeds to be used by Skip for his cause I think. Maybe Skip will help you? If you find a copy titled The Ruth-less Church, it is the same book with an earlier title which apparently he wasn’t happy with so it was changed. Makes sense. Too misleading.

George Kraemer

If Skip is unable to give you any info on how to get the book I can have Laurita send my copy to you. Let me know how you are making out with Skip or Matthew.

Richard Bridagn

As a great-grandpa, I’m often in the company of some very special “little ones”. I’ve long been intrigued with the development of a child’s recognition in early childhood of cause and effect. It’s not only fun to observe the process of exploration, surprise, and delight as a child begins to grasp that s/he can make things happen, studies recognize that encouragement of the process ultimately contributes to a child’s wholeness and healthy social integration in adulthood. In the context of loving, involved oversight, these processes are requisite to functioning as a human being.

What parent has not endured patiently when their 2-3 year old incessantly asks, “Why?”Assuming that our Heavenly Father desires us to go through processes that ultimately (in Christ Jesus) contribute to the wholeness and integration of our “human-ness”, what do you suppose is His response when we start asking “why”?

George Kraemer

This TW sums up perfectly why I read it everyday. When I was starting my quest for THE TRUTH six years ago I was prepared to dump everything about my religious paradigm and become an atheist if it led there. The neon signpost that changed everything was meeting Skip and being told by him that “I thought like a Greek not like a Hebrew.” That was the trigger that I needed to push my quest in a totally different direction that I am so happy to have found. Eternally grateful Skip. Thanks

Glenn

Hi Skip,

I have been following your blog for a while now and have been enjoying it very much. I read your original post but I didn’t read any of the comments. I was surprised to read the controversy your post stirred up.

I have one follow-up question for you. I think I get the point you are making in this post (notice I don’t want to be over confident here) that the authors of scripture had no problem paraphrasing other scripture, using hyperbole, or just stating things we wouldn’t strictly call true in order to make their point. If that is the case then how do we judge which statements to take as true when reading scripture? If some statements are true and others aren’t where do I draw the line and say I accept one thing and ignore the other?

I know that is a very Greek way of thinking but I am as much a product of my time as the writers of scripture were of theirs. Surely God has made it possible for me to comprehend his truth in the here and now.

Thank you for writing about these issues!

Glenn

Hi Skip,

Thank you for your response. I do understand that my question is a Greek one but somehow I need to figure out how I need to approach interpreting the scriptures.

I agree with your statements about determining truth. At root we can’t absolutely determine what truth is since only God can do that, we almost always take other people’s word for it. For example I don’t know anyone who has actually read Einstein’s work on General relativity so I take the experts word that the theory is all they say it is.

The answer to your question about how I determine truth is that I believe what I trust. I trust that I know my own mind about whether I love my children, I trust myself. I also trust that I know my friends and family well enough that I can trust them most of the time. I suppose it becomes a Greek style probability argument the like of which I never cared for very much. The farther someone is removed from me the less I trust them.

The thing I have always liked about your writing is the emphasis you place on making choices. We make choices and are held accountable to God for those choices. If I don’t know who or what to trust then I become very timid making choices. If the woman caught in adultery in John 8 was a made up story then why should I trust the conclusion that flows from that story? Apparently you can confidently see what to grab hold of and what to let go of but I’m not there.

Thank you.

Mark Parry

Truth, belief, reliability are all words that relate to a horizontal relational experience of God based on the words, works or expressions of men in a vertical relationship with Him. Or they can be fixed on a personal vertical expression of faith=belief, in truth and reliability. I am no longer so concerned about why or how I believe in the horizontal expression of YHVA about me. It is now for me simply a matter of trust in the strength of the vertical connection I have with him through Messiah. Much like Jacobs ladder things are running up and down for me no longer going sideways…

Richard Bridgan

Hi Skip,
Is it possible that subsequent to the fall mankind can only know truth (and subsequently, the reality of good and evil) through the context of personalization? Is “knowing” good and evil (in a sense) “personified” and its reality known and experienced in the context of personal relationship? Are the declarations that we are “born in iniquity and conceived in sin” and “you are of your father the devil” examples of that identification of relationship both to evil and good through a personal relationship of spirit that is ultimately proven? Pilate was able to grasp both good and evil in the presence of Yeshua of Nazareth, yet ultimately he sustained his relationship to both in truth through his judgment, public pronouncement and sentence.

George Kraemer

– “Every apostolic author either modifies, selects or re-translates cited passages from the Tanakh in order to make those passages fit the present context or argument of the author……They were not trying to fool their audiences. They were simply doing what everyone knew they were doing, that is, following the acceptable cultural rules for use of the Tanakh in rabbinic context.” S.M.

Context is everything. It comprises everything we don’t notice from the obvious words themselves. As McLuhan famously said, “the medium is the message.” His “medium” meant “any extension of ourselves.” His message meant “the change of scale or pace or pattern” that a new invention or innovation “introduces into human affairs.”

Our lives are endlessly full of rapid change. Isn’t that good? Not necessarily unless we fully appreciate the inevitability of unanticipated consequences which we cannot know. This leads us to a new paradigm. Analogue-digital. Newspapers – internet fake news. Bigger, better, faster just leads to greater entropy, disorder, chaos. Exactly what we have today.

So can we rely on the Bible to be absolutely accurate? No, but we can rely on it to be absolutely orderly and meaningful, in harmony with God’s intention, message, for how to live our lives. Should it be any less, any more? Our Medium’s message never changes, sh’ma, hear/obey.

Pam

I really appreciated this Skip. From the very beginning of my ‘journey’ over 30+ years ago – my quest was to seek the WHY of what I believed…I’m ok with changing my perspective, not knowing, throwing out and adding, and doing it all over again. I’m content with not knowing…after all…I’m still human 🙂 Thank you for opening this door that some of us have been standing behind.

Da\'vid Hankins

Skip! I have been in a dry wadi for a while…kicking the dust and not understanding what I am suppose to be doing. HaShem has ALWAYS been in my life but only in the last 5 or 6 years has He stir me to work and to understand what our (HaShem and my) relationship is to be. I have talked to the only two people that know of my journey and understand where I’m currently at. One is Rick Gambino that follows you. In your current blog YOU just opened a door to more understanding. I have been to stuck in the western mind set. Thank YOU! for putting water in the wadi.

Judi Baldwin

Thanks for taking the time to write this Skip. It was a much needed reminder that, besides being a Biblical scholar, you’re a Philosopher, (and much more comfortable with contradiction than the average person.) I think many of us forget that at times. I googled the definition of Philosopher and several descriptions came up, but, my favorite was, “a person who is rationally or sensibly calm, especially under trying circumstances.” That, to me, defines you, as you face all the “push back” from some of your TW readers, me included.
Also, I appreciated your suggestion that, when Moses said “Choose Life,” the emphasis should be on “choice,”…another good reminder that God gives us much information and then allows us to choose. We get to choose how we live…even though we don’t get to choose the consequences.

John Miesel

Perhaps this TW should be sent to Bert Erhman, not that is would change his mind, but something for him to consider…

Craig

“Easterners are concerned about how to live, not about why we believe. Apologetics is a Greek endeavor.”

While I’ve no problem comprehending that there are differences generally between Eastern (including Hebraic) thinking and Greek thinking, the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, at times they are quite complementary. Taking just the quote above, what is not explicitly stated is that both are concerned with what to believe—doctrine—i.e., the object of their respective faiths. Once the Easterner and the Greek, respectively, determines what to believe, each then engages in some form of apologetics.

Proof of that is right here on this site. Skip is at pains to assert that no first century Jew could conceive of a Messiah as Deity, as God. This IS apologetics. And here I am, e.g., arguing the “Greek” side, so to speak—arguing that Jesus, Yeshua the Messiah is God in the flesh. In so doing, I’m holding to what appears to be a contradiction: A man—Jesus Christ—is also God. The finite is somehow also infinite. This is a very Eastern thought, no?

Moreover, the Hebrew mindset has no issue with using stories—ones that are not based on real historical persons or actual events—to explain larger truths. Jesus did this with parables. Did not Greeks do this very thing? What about Aesop’s fables and the like?

This is not to say that there aren’t folks camped out on one extreme, with others camped out on the other, the two camps never to be reconciled in any fashion. There are the KJV-onlyists, whose entire faith is wrapped up in the idea that God must have perfectly preserved His Word, the most ardent adherent claiming that not only the underlying Textus Receptus Greek is the exact, unchangeable “Word of God”, but the KJV English is as well—with some claiming only the English is the “Word of God”. (I saw one article in which someone translated the KJV to Spanish—not the underlying GREEK text, but the KJV English—which resulted in some VERY odd readings!) Such individuals will never concede that the Johannine Comma (the disputed, obviously spurious reading in 1 John 5:7 found in N/KJV), is not part of God’s word.

Laurita Hayes

Craig, I love the balance you bring so that we can see where we are at from both angles. Thank you for all your diligence and indefatigable heart.

I get stuck with John when it comes to the God/man thing. He was obviously tangling with later heresy, such as the Nicolaitans (Nicholas was supposed to have been one of the 7 deacons of Acts 6:5 who apostasized), who did not believe that the deeds of the flesh affected the state of the spirit, and the entire epistle of 2John is about the antechrist situation, which was apparently also cranking up then, which he identified with the denial that Yeshua came in the flesh. Now, this is an exceeding strange denial if Yeshua was ‘just’ a flesh and blood man, don’t ya think? I mean, this is classic tilting at windmills if Yeshua was already accepted to be ‘just’ another human. Right here we can see the denial of the nephesh in general, and the problem of what a person is, in particular. Wouldn’t this be Greek mindsets already causing grief? AND, I don’t think the Greeks invented it; didn’t they just codify the problem natural man has with function and form because the Greeks realized that the flesh is stuck in form? The Bible calls this condition “death” and “slavery” – this no-present for the flesh – but I see this as a human dilemma, not necessarily a Greek invention. I think you are right to broaden it back out.

Would also love your insight (and everyone else’s, too!) on what you know of the Nicolaitans, for I think we suffer from what they suffered from wholescale today, a la Descartes.

Craig

Laurita,

Excellent observations! A docetic understanding of Yeshua surely points to a suprahuman belief. In this schema, this is then harmonized by claiming that in view of Him being Divine—thereby having an incorporeal existence—this would necessarily preclude a human existence. Thus, His human body must only ‘seem’ (dokeō) to be real, corporeal. Yes, we must wonder where this belief emanated.

While I’ve not ever done any study on the Nicolatians, I’m familiar with the spirit/flesh dualism (spirit is good, flesh is evil) inherent in various pagan strands, especially 2nd century Gnosticism. Though there is only evidence of fully-formed Gnostic doctrine in the 2nd century, I do believe (with some others) there was a proto-gnosticism in the latter part of the 1st century. This (in view of proto-gnosticism and other related pagan streams, to include the earlier Nicolatians), I think is why John wrote his Gospel (ca. 95 AD, in my opinion) the way he did, making his points implicitly, while the Apostle was more explicit in his first two epistles (ca. 95-96) (and in Revelation regarding the Nicolatians). It may be helpful to briefly sketch my position.

Eusebius records an account of Polycarp regarding Cerinthus, a Gnostic, or proto-gnostic (according to apologetic writings of antiquity, as none of his writings survived) and John the Apostle (C. F. Cruse, transl. Ecclesiastical History, [Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 2009], 4.14.6):

And there are those still living who heard [Polycarp] that John the disciple of the Lord went into a bath at Ephesus, and seeing Cerinthus within, ran out without bathing, and exclaimed, “Let us flee lest the bath should fall in, as long as Cerinthus, the enemy of truth, is within.”

John would certainly have to be near the end of his years in order to have witnessed Cerinthus. It is thought that Cerinthus began teaching ca. 100AD. I think it possible that John was aware of his teachings, refuting them in his writings. Cerinthus’ Christology is purported to be a separationist one—one in which Jesus, a man, had “the Christ Spirit” descend upon Him (‘anoint’ Him) at baptism, only to leave Him just before the crucifixion. I believe this particular heresy, in addition to Docetism, is in view in 1 John 2:22.

Continued…

Craig

Continuing:

Notice how this verse is bracketed by John’s words on “anointing” in verses 20 and 27, with the latter juxtaposing “anointing” with a falsehood (using a cognate of the word for “liar” in verse 22). With all the foregoing in mind (and I John 1:1-3), John’s statement “It is the one who denies Jesus is the Christ” is not simply a denial that Yeshua is the Messiah (though that may also be encompassed in the statement), it’s a denial that “Jesus” is coextensive with “the Christ”, i.e., that the two are inherently together in one person. In other words, I think by John telling his community that they have “the anointing”, the Holy One’s anointing (20 and 27), he was implying that they have true teaching via the Holy One’s anointing, while “the liar” is teaching not only by a ‘false’ anointing, but this may plausibly imply that he is teaching that Jesus was later ‘anointed’ by the “Christ Spirit”. I readily concede that this is a stretch, but John’s first epistle records the only time chrisma, “anointing” (a cognate of Christos, “Christ”, “Anointed”), is used in the entire NT—once in verse 20 and twice in verse 27. Just look at the verbiage in 27 “the anointing which you received from him [the Holy One] remains in you”—could this be seen as having a double meaning, one implicitly over against the Cerinthian view that Jesus’ “anointing” left Him before the crucifixion?

While 2 John 7 is phrased similar to 1 John 2:22—in the negative—in 1 John 4:2-3, the Apostle states it positively, though slightly different: one (every spirit) must acknowledge that Jesus Christ—His entire person (again, see 1:3)—has come in the flesh as proof that the Spirit of God is present. At minimum, this is an affirmation of His humanity; however, this also refutes both Docetism (Jesus [Christ?] is not flesh) and proto-gnosticism (“the Christ” is separate from the human person).

You wrote: …didn’t they [the Greeks] just codify the problem natural man has with function and form because the Greeks realized that the flesh is stuck in form? The Bible calls this condition “death” and “slavery” – this no-present for the flesh – but I see this as a human dilemma, not necessarily a Greek invention.

I hadn’t ever considered a form/function dichotomy as possibly congruent with a spirit good/flesh evil one. According to early Church ‘fathers’, there were Jews (in addition to Greeks) leading various Gnostic sects. Moreover, depending on how far back Kabbalistic teachings go—if it’s to the first century, then this would be an example of Jewish spirit/flesh dualism this early.

There’s no doubt a spirit/flesh dualism today. It’s the New Age / New Spirituality doctrine, very similar to 2nd century Gnosticism, permeating society. It’s in Lurianic Kabbalah. It’s very prevalent, and it’s very much opposed to Judaism and Christianity (Islam?).

Laurita Hayes

Craig, I always learn something from you! Thank you so much for taking the time and effort.

I would really like to see if anyone else has any more background to add about the audiences that were being written to. also. As Skip says, John was writing about real folks and situations to real folks.

You could not hold a Docetic view, it seems to me, without separating the cause-and-effect relationship of function and form. If function determines (causes) form, then you will always find function prior to form; further, form will always be an effect of function, not a determinant of it, would it not? But, with the Greek ideal form, you could have form not only preceding function, form could exist WITHOUT function, too. Function was optional; function, in fact, was a side effect, if you will, of form, and was limited by the form. For the Greeks (and others, too), the ideal form of God could function only in God ways, thus making it impossible to ALSO function in human ways. This is why I think the thought began that Yeshua could not possibly have been a flesh and blood man, because He was doing God things, that only the form of God could do. Hello, Docetism? And Gnosticism? Both of which are alive and well in our ‘churchy’ thinking to this day, by the way.

I have yet to have anyone who thinks Yeshua was just a very special man explain to me WHY He could not function as both God and man concurrently. I have a sneaking suspicion that we perhaps are still suffering from this idea that the ideal form of God limits Him from functioning fully as a man, too. This is my suspicion only, because I have yet to see anyone break down an explanation as to just why God cannot do both, “Why, He just can’t” is the closest I have ever gotten anyone to say. Well, why can’t He function as both? No one has told me why that rule exists, but it seems to be the paradigm out of which that limitation could be arising, not having anyone explain anything better. Still asking, though.

Daniel Kraemer

Laurita,
As you may know I have a Kenotic Christology belief, (thank you Craig for the definition) meaning Yahweh emptied Himself of His divinity. So, although I believe He became fully human, He was something much more than just a very special man. He was unique. He was our Mediator. A mediator is an in-between, neither the Supreme God, nor a sinful human.

On thinking of your statement above, I thought of this
(NASB) Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

I am not suggesting that one verse can definitively confirm that God can NOT be a man at the same time He is God, but it is something for you to consider.
Could Yeshua sin? I think most of us agree that it was possible, otherwise His “temptations” were really a sham. Therefore, it was possible for Him to lie, but this verse says God cannot lie, ego, Yeshua could not be God.

Craig

Can I make a recommendation? Find a copy of Exploring Kenotic Christology by C. Stephen Evans, Ed. It’s a collection of essays by proponents of kenotic Christology, of varying flavors, along with a few who adhere to the more traditional view–though most authors in the volume favor the kenotic view. Some contributors have a more philosophical background, others more theological. It may help you to solidify your view, refine it, or perhaps even change it. I reviewed the book a while back, both at Amazon and on my own blog (a longer version).

Mark@ideastudios.com

Jumping back in this thread Craig at your request. Interesting how many simultaneous conversations can be going on. The mysteries between the corpoural and the spirtual are underlined here. The presence of diety within human flesh or its annointing of the spirit upon it is a curiositie. Are they one or independently active? The soul surly is the bridge, through heart (perhaps a simile?). Do I really need to know exactly how the rifigerat cyle works to enjoy my air conditioner fully and completely? Not likely for most of humanity but they do not frequent this site. .

Craig

I’ll try to incorporate one response here to your recent comments. I apparently misunderstood you re: Yeshua as “mere man”. I do try to write neutrally and respectfully (though I surely fail at times), even in disagreements. I attempt to view another’s position as fully as possible so that I do not a) misunderstand, then b) mischaracterize.

Following is something upon which apparently you, me and Paul agree:

And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory [1 Tim 3:16, HCSB] .

Mark@ideastudios.com

I have mentioned before Dr. Chuck Missler of Konennia House. He has approached the scriptures from an entirely different paradime. He is a scientist not a philosopher. His enquiries where in the light of the scriptures as a message delivery system seeing within the “66 books by 40 authors (written over 2,400years) and we now find that it (the Bible) is an integrated message system from outside our time domain.”. His analysis of the scientific content within the scriptures implies a mind, an awareness an understanding that exceeds the capacity of a common minds to have created or even to comprehend within their knowledge-base. The scientific content of Job alone is still inspiring scientific ivestigations and discoveries. The big picture . The sheer insight into the cosmos expressed in the scriptures, through a quordinated revelation reflecting accurately mans history (prior to the actual events) consistently across time is miraculous. This with a variety authors yet with a consistentry developed message and trajectory of purpose is unfathomable . I think we are looking at the trees and missing the forest in this line of thought. I am still not willing to hop on this train. As Art Katz sayes ” God does not desire that we do away with our intelect but rather that we sweep it off our alters and use it in His service” It still seems to me this conversation is making God’s power subordinate to a perspective on the power of culture and will of man to create and manipulate rather than of YHVH to communicate. I prefer to focus on the glory of God than the prowess of the minds of men no matter how tintelateing it might be .

Mark@ideastudios.com

The best way to describe the cognatetive disconnect I am have experianced in this conversation is that it is largely a horizontal perspective. While in my peception we should be focusing rather on the vertical. I am seeing God reach into the sphere of men while I am suspecting that this conversation is about men looking about themselves in the hope to find Him. I’ll pray that’s always the answer. ..

Laurita Hayes

The inherent problem Skip writes about with regard to people who see what they want to see because of their paradigm applies to people who approach the Bible. The Bible is a secret code written in plain sight. The only key to this code is the Paraclete. If you do not have it, you have NO access. That goes for critics, experts, interpreters, etc. The Bible is its own critic, expert and interpreter. If you have the Paraclete, you can open the box. If you don’t, don’t bother. The rest of the stuff is interesting, entertaining, or a great perspective on the humans who are doing it, but it is not a key.

I guess you can tell the paradigm I am working out of. Mark, I stand with you. I will look at everything, but it tells me more about the folks who are doing it than it does about the Book. I agree with you; there is no outside handle or perspective for the Bible; only confirmation, and that only for folks who already have the Key.

Laurita Hayes

Yes, yes and yes! It’s the same arrogance that we see on the ‘other’ side, too, however. If that were not so, free choice could not exist.

We are reduced to fruit inspection.

Sadly, there is NO way to get to truth, except by experience, and there is no way to the experience of God or His Word without Him. Unfortunately, it cannot be done without the Spirit. Equally unfortunately, anyone can claim that they ‘have’ it and no one can tell them that they don’t, EXCEPT by inspecting their fruit. There is no third way to the truth, or even second way. It’s all through subjective experience, and that not independent, but in conjunction. Perhaps truth IS experience of the Spirit of Truth? Its suspicious.

Laurita Hayes

My brain remembers the years that I could not think in nouns. During that time, I lost confidence in my mind. I pray I never regain it, for life has been so much easier without that curse. I find that I no longer have confidence in the minds of others, either. What a relief!

For sure, it is “not by might (even of intellect) or by power (of mind, too), but by (M)y Spirit”.Zech. 4:6. And if YHVH says so, there is nothing anyone else can. Amen.

mark parry

Skip, the Psalmist tells us “out of the heart flow the issues of life”. That implies the spirit flows through the heart and not the mind. The mind I believe process what the heart discerns. Without a clean heart, a pure heart, as David calls it , our thoughts might be suspect. We are warned of “a hard heart” for that is what closes the mind. It is my assertion it is “an obedient heart”, a “humble heart” that pleases the Lord. Moses was the “humblest” of men which denotes in my mind a submitted heart an obedient heart. Through that submission=humility and his obedient heart flowed the Torah. While his mind was part of the process and informed the words and was indeed part of a social, philosophical and psychological context it did not create them. He was a scribe, a pencil rendered to the hand of the almighty. Surly a uniquely gifted one, but a servant, a tool none the less. That in my mind is one of the chief benefits of the a rare and select few of the best of the Hebrews to this world. A willingness to get out of the way to submit themselves, their hearts, their whole person to the almighty. Is that not devotion? I believe It is the humble heart of submission, the devotion and obedience the love of truth that drew YHVH to befriend Abraham and to walk with and reveal himself too and through Israel his offspring. It was his rare heart the pleased the Lord . But what can I actually know about anything? It’s YHVH alone who knows ask him and then listen and believe he will answer. Then carefully, accurately, humbly and obediently share it with us…

Mark@ideastudios.com

Understood I get that, Art Katz suggests in order to understand what is being communicated by the Spirit in the word one must be in the same Spirit. That I belive is what Lurita is suggesting Zechariah 4:6 implies and as I recall that was Arts refrence. Considering also John 6:63 1 Corn. 2:14

Mark@ideastudios.com

Skip this has been a critical discussion for me to find alignment and agreement with your heart for Yeshua. Your comment that “God comes wrapped in human clothes” is revelatory of our shard understanding. Messiah being the most whole or perfect example. This helps clarify the questions about the conflict in the Shema and the theology of the diety of Christ that your helping me resolve. Yet its still some what a mystery . I am absolutely sure that Yeshua is absolute truth and the holy spirit is sent among us to leat us into all truth. And that all truth is available , however I know this by my choice of faith. Yeshua alone is truth. That is all I know for sure. The rest of my life on this earth will be spent no doubt discovering all the ways I miss him, and others see him and learning to share and discern what we know , what we thought we knew and what we missed altogether. We miss so much….I agree what we know can be suspect, and should be held lightly and confirmed in the word. That itself is another very deep min to work… It is wonderful to share this jurny with our brethren here.

Mark@ideastudios.com

The vanity of “mind” that Paul warns we should not conform ourselves too as I understand him is to that of a rational thought process that excludes the presence of the Holy Spirit. That would as I understand his refrence bring forth death. Agin eating from the wrong tree of knowedge. In this case the death of one’s faith, at least in the veracity and reality of God’s presence in his word. While I am not required to understand the particulars of why Yah chose this way to reveal himself , nor how he actually does it. I have experianced and witnessed far too many very clear obvious and verifiable examples in my own life to prove that the word is truth and a reliable way through the world. I am not giving myself or leading others into the dark woods of doubt or dismissel, no matter how enticing a process or compelling an argument I might conjure up at the corners of my unredeemed intelectual capacities. I lived in those dark corners and belived them when I was a freshman in college finding then of no value in my experiments in disbelieve that lasted four days. I’m simply not hopping on that train, it’s my choice your free to make yours. YHVH is expressed in and through his word, push them around, shift manipulate and re order, reinterpret them as you will His power to keep, order and guard them is grater than man’s or the advisarries power to dismiss or eradicate it. God lives through and is revealed by his word.

Mark@ideastudios.com

“The truth is in us and we in it only to the degree we actually walk in it” Art Katz from ” The Spirit of Truth”.

Mark@ideastudios.com

17So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.…Berean Study Bible · Ephesians 4:7

robert lafoy

And yet God confirms Himself through His word in the creation by what makes things go vroom, vroom or sputter, chug, bang. Maybe not self interpretive but certainly self confirming. And yes, insight can lead to arrogance even though it should lead to fear and we should tread softly in these things for the most part. Mostly, for me, scripture reveals the heart of God in His desires, and what I desire to seek from the “medium” of the word is the right way to “push” no matter what the circumstance or opportunity I’m engaged in. Shema Israel, YHWH Elohinu, YHWH echad. Unity.

Mark@ideastudios.com

Hi Skip thanks for the comments. With all due respect numbers of your comments reflect a limited perspective. David M. Rohle an Egyptolgist and Archiologist has fairly conclusively proven in “Pharaohs and Kings” that much of the evidence used to debunk the Biblical record and time line is entirely wrong and that it does indeed stand scrutinization. The premis you seem to be advancing that the Bible stories where crafted more to serve the political asperations of the writers than as a communication to mankind from the creator is largely diminished in Genesis. While Moses was no doubt a human, with all the failings and weaknesses he as “the humbelest” of men seemed to have channeled in his writings the reality and substance of the cosmos far beyond the any possible human knowledge in his day. It seems to me your limiting your perspective to philosophy and human history, these are with all due respect social sciences by defenition. So using the thoughts understanding and Ideas of men to explaine, define or dismiss the presence or way of God is follishness. It was Isaiah who said ” my way’s are not your ways, my thoughts are not your thoughts …as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your way’s and my thought’s higher than yours….. Bless you brother as you struggle with the spirit of truth, that has been sent by Messiah to lead us into all truth.

Mark Parry

Ok I can agree with that. It was R.W. Emerson who said “read for the author behind the author” Skip, was there an author behind the author and if so who was he/it? In those “66 books by 40 authors (written over 2,400 years) ” that seem to have a consistent and purposeful message?

Mark Parry

By the way, it is more than interesting that Dr. Chuck Missiler was able to read the science and processes of the creation story as actually biological, physical science. They are not just words spoken to a culture they are truth revealed by the creator to his creation. And that truth was revealed to Moses and no man on the planet at that time had any understanding of what he even meant most likely. God spoke biology, physics and it was. Modern scientist are still discovering what he said in Genesis 1. And yes Moses was simply a scribe as most good Hebrews have been.

Mark Parry

I’m an architect. I pick up different pencils to write with all the time. I know what color, or texture they produce on the paper. I use different sharpness’s based on the composition of the graphite in them. I know what I’ll get when I use them. Perhaps trustworthy people are pencil’s in the hand of the author of life and history?

Mark@ideastudios.com

Skip elsewhere commented that God wears humanity, puts people on like a coat. This to me is accurate and revelatory. It neither diminishes nor distorts the holyness of YHVH nor distorts the free will of men. Moses gave himself over to be a vehicle for the delivery of Torah. This perspective also informs me on the Messiah. He being without sin born of a vergin had a unique and pure vessel for YHVH to put on. That did not make him YHVH but a unique Son descendent or representative of Him. So YHVH remains one in Spirit while Messiah remains in his uniqueness as the sole holy complete and pure representation of YHVH on the earth. Humm that’s an interesting paridime. ..

Mark@ideastudios.com

A final note. The last two weeks on T.W. has been amazing thanks all. The issue of time, YHVH BEING outside of time and reaching into it to speak through men like Moses, Isaiah, Yeshua is mind boggeling. Yet consider he wrote Torah through Moses knowing you or I would be reading it today and needing to here him through it Then we have the importance of the Spirit of Truth that Messiah sent to lead us all into all truth. So be it Amain…