Prophetic Calling
“And you, lie down on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel on it. The number of the days that you shall lie down on it, you shall bear their iniquity.” Ezekiel 4:4 (translation: A. Heschel)
Bear – Who will respond to the call of the Lord? “Here I am,” said Samuel. “Send me,” said Isaiah. “It is accomplished,” said Yeshua. But few and far between are the people who willingly take up God’s call. Why? Perhaps the instructions to Ezekiel give us the answer. To be called by God is to bear the iniquity of others.
Ah, you thought that Yeshua bore it all. You thought that you were relieved from the duty of carrying the sins of others because He died as the perfect sacrifice. Think again. We encountered this Hebrew verb (nasa) in Isaiah 53:4. The Suffering Servant bears the sins of the people. So do the prophets. Certainly this cannot mean that Ezekiel is charged with the guilt of Israel and Judah. It means that Ezekiel is a substitute for the punishment that Israel and Judah deserve. The same is true of Yeshua. He bore our punishment. That had forensic value in God’s moral government, but the act of sacrifice was an act of substitution, not forgiveness. Called to suffer, that’s the role of those who would follow the Master. Called to suffer without cause for those who deserve to suffer. Do you still want to answer God’s calling?
We might be willing to accept punishment for our own mistakes and disobedience. Accountability is a big word in Christian vocabulary today. But accountability is justifiable retribution. Personal excuses to the contrary, everyone understands the necessity and importance of personal judgment and discipline. But Christian vocabulary includes a word that defies human logic. That word is nasa – to bear. It is humanly inconceivable that I should bear the punishment others deserve. No legal system in this world condemns the innocent in place of the guilty. No system except God’s system. To be called is to be called to substitutionary suffering. To forgive is to bear the guilt of the guilty, to willingly accept what should never be ours in order to remove the penalty from others. Prophets are not called to proclaim. They are called to stand in for God. They are called to display His suffering, to die for those who would rather live without the Father. Practical redemption is the choice to let God afflict me rather than bring His wrath to bear on those who most certainly merit it. Do you still want to answer God’s calling?
What joy we experience when we take on the mantle of God’s own grace! What victory we have when we act as His true stewards of men! And what honor we receive when we are shamed for His sake! The reason the world cannot understand or abide God’s called-out ones is simple: they do not follow any form of common sense justice. They exhibit something the world cannot comprehend – the crucified God. Do you want to answer His calling? Good! He has counted you worthy to suffer in His name.
Topical Index: suffer, guilt, nasa, bear, Ezekiel 4:4, Isaiah 53:4
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Skip, years ago I heard of a cultish belief system which announced that all the members were “little christs”. What you have written here sounds very much like that system. I pray that I have misunderstood you! I pray that you don’t really believe the stuff you have put before us!
Sadly,
Helen
Hello, Helen,
I did not sense any kind of cultish or inappropriate characteristics in this post. It reminded me of the TW where Skip pointed out that PEACEMAKERS are people who are willing to forgo peace in their own lives, so they can bring it to others. It seems to be a kind of parallel idea to the one written here. Can you look at it that way?
Thanks, Gayle, but I don’t see the comparison. In Skip’s article, he is saying that man has the same power that Jesus Christ had and has. It appears that Skip believes man can do for his fellows just what Jesus did at Calvary. However, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. Heb. 9:22.
I agree that we are bound to help each other in the Love of God in Christ Jesus, but that help in no way has any efficacy as far as cleansing that person from the guilt or the sin. I don’t believe it is possible for any human to do the work of the Cross………to take the sin or the guilt of another upon oneself. Skip believes it can be done, and when it is, that person is exhibiting the “crucified God”. I have never heard of this “teaching”, nor do I believe it is true to the written words of God…….nor to the Jesus who is the Living Word.
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Dear Helen,
Please make the distinction between guilt and substitution. While you are right that only the sacrifice of the perfect and blameless can provide forgiveness from sin, that does not mean that others are not called to act as substitutes for the consequences of sin. Every prophet suffered for the disobedience of the people taking on himself their deserved punishment. Yeshua does the say. We are called to do the same. But that is NOT the equivalent of offering forgiveness. Only God can do that. Please meditate on the distinctions. They are important. I absolutely do not believe that any man except God’s chosen can expiate guilt, but I do believe that every follower of the Christ is called to stand as substitute for those who are lost. We are to be peaceMAKERS, not peace TAKERS. We are the ones who get shot at so that others might find peace.
Skip, you said. “I absolutely do not believe that any man except God’s chosen can expiate guilt, but I do believe that every follower of the Christ is called to stand as substitute for those who are lost.”
By “God’s chosen” do you refer to Jesus Christ? Yeshua? And by “the Christ” you still refer to Yeshua?
What are the scripture references that tell me that I am “to stand as substitute for those who are lost”?
I don’t mean to be difficult or insincere, Skip. I am truly stumped by your post, and by this reply to me.
Let’s see if this helps. 1 Corinthians 13:7, 1 Peter 2:2, Acts 9:16, Philippians 1:29, 2 Corinthians 1:5 ff, 2 Thessalonians 1:5.
Just so you’ll know that I looked up these scripture references, here they are:
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
5 ¶ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Dear Skip, I cannot understand how these scriptures relate to your original post. If you would rather stop attempting to explain to me, that’s okay. We seem to be getting nowhere. I have a dear friend who walks closely to the Lord, serves Him diligently, is versed well in Scripture, even the Hebrew meanings, and she is as stumped as I am over your original post. (She is on your mailing list, and brought this to my attention.)
Let’s give it one more try, then I’ll bow out. Each of these verses indicates the role of the follower is one of bearing, suffering, uplifting others in the name of the Lord or as a characteristic of the one true God. Doesn’t this indicate to you that we act on His behalf in imitating what He does? Are we called to live according to the Son’s example? So, why is it so difficult for you to see that if this is true individually it is also true collectively. As I have said, this is not an act of forgiving guilt without atonement, but it is nevertheless an act that bears the sin of another (please remember that sin in the Hebrew sense is both the act and the consequence).
Perhaps I should have asked you why you think that acting as God would act indicates that we are being gods? That seems to be what you imply. I find that very puzzling.
One more. Don’t you see that I clearly distinguish between bearing the guilt of another and bearing the punishment another deserved? That’s right in the post.
Oh, I see I made a typo. It should have been 1 Peter 2:21, not 2:2.
1 Peter 2:21 – For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
I have not read 2 Peter in its entirety for awhile, but doesn’t that verse refer to the sufferings His followers were experiencing as a result of preaching the Gospel message??
Yes, I see that you “clearly distinguish between bearing the guilt of another and bearing the punishment another deserved?” And I still do not believe that we as believers in, and followers of, our Lord Jesus Christ, redeemed by His shed Blood, have been given by Him either the authority or the power to bear the guilt or the punishment that another deserves. If that is true, then of what value to us is His sacrifice of death on the Cross? If He cannot take care of all that for us, and we need to rely on a fellow human being to do so, then we are still lost and in our sins. His Calvary work is of no value to us as It stands!!
You also said: “Perhaps I should have asked you why you think that acting as God would act indicates that we are being gods?”
I didn’t say that. What I said was: “I heard of a cultish belief system which announced that all the members were “little christs”. What you have written here sounds very much like that system.” I didn’t say that “acting as God would indicate we are being gods”.
One more and then I’ll bow out!! Quoting you again: “( please remember that sin in the Hebrew sense is both the act and the consequence). I am quite familiar personally with the bearing of consequences of anothers’ sins. But it is not because of any special effort on my part……..it just happens that way, without my assistance, or special spiritual standing with God.
I asked you this, and haven’t received a direct reply from you: “but I do believe that every follower of the Christ is called to stand as substitute for those who are lost.” Please lead me to Scripture that will prove from God’s own Word to us, that what you say is truth!! If my understanding that Jesus hanging on that Cross, without any guilt of His own, suffering and dying as MY substitute………is in error, then I am as lost for Eternity as though He did not give His Life, that I might have Life. His own words “It is finished” have no meaning for me.
However!!!! I KNOW that is not so, and I rejoice in the FACT that Jesus did pay it all in my stead!! No human being, no matter how godly a life he or she is living, can EVER take the place of, or enhance in any way, Jesus’ Sacrifice on that Cross at Calvary!!
Perhaps someone else needs to make some comments here as I don’t seem to be able to communicate effectively with you. Christ hanging on the cross accomplishes the removal of guilt for all who believe. That does not in any way remove the necessity of His followers accepting the consequences of other’s actions as a demonstration of the sacrificial love He exemplified, but apparently you don’t agree. I have to move on and leave this one as it is.
Are you blocking my posts?
It appears that my posts are being blocked.
No, they are not blocked, but you must allow the server to have time to function. No post is instantaneous except my replies.
Skip, my posts have always appeared here immediately, and that’s why I questioned. I’m sorry for all the misunderstandings, the disagreements, the time taken from your busy life and schedule, but I am deeply concerned. I pray that others have been able to understand what you wrote under “Prophetic Calling”.
It would have been helpful to have heard someone else’s understanding of it.
May God’s Peace be upon you, Skip.
In His Love,
Helen
Of course not!
Of course I believe what I have written. Not to believe it would mean that I present false teaching. But that doesn’t mean I control how others interpret what I write. Since I have never suggested that we are little gods, I suspect that you have read into my work something of your own concern. I absolutely believe that we, as followers of YHWH, are called to suffer on behalf of others. That is the true definition of agape love. But that does not make us gods. It makes us representatives of the one true God. I absolutely believe that our suffering is the willingness to bear the guilt and punishment that others deserve. Yeshua did this and Peter calls us to follow in His footsteps. But that does not make us gods. It makes us obedient. Any Christian system that teaches a doctrine of avoidance of suffering or eternal bliss misses the point of the gospel. Yeshua is the perfect sacrifice, but that doesn’t mean you and I have no need to lift up (nasa) the burdens (including the results of sin) of others.
Isaiah 53:11
Benevolence towards others at cost to self.
Skip, I have moved on and left this one as well. However, when you say this: “That does not in any way remove the necessity of His followers accepting the consequences of other’s actions as a demonstration of the sacrificial love He exemplified,” did you not read my comment?? “I am quite familiar personally with the bearing of consequences of anothers’ sins.”. I have born the consequences of my own family members’ sins, while they go on living in that state.
I guess God bore the consequences of all our sin when He sent His only begotten Son to Calvary.
Skip, I replied to your last, hit submit, and it has not been posted.
I replied to your last one, Skip, and it still has not posted.
I see my post being referred to as “not being posted”, way back where it will not be noticed. So here is a copy and I hope it will be posted under Skip’s last one!!!!!!!!
Skip Moen says:
December 30, 2010 at 10:38 am
My reply again: “Skip, I have moved on and left this one as well. However, when you say this: “That does not in any way remove the necessity of His followers accepting the consequences of other’s actions as a demonstration of the sacrificial love He exemplified,” did you not read my comment?? “I am quite familiar personally with the bearing of consequences of anothers’ sins.”. I have born the consequences of my own family members’ sins, while they go on living in that state.
I guess God bore the consequences of all our sin when He sent His only begotten Son to Calvary.
Helen, and Skip,
Please, may I bring something to the table with all of this? Helen, we are in the same age range, should I say in our December years? You were blessed to have a Godly husband that was an excellent Bible Teacher: maybe nearly as long as two-thirds of a Century. The God gave you an excellent brain to learn with. I am sure there were many other good teachers in your life, too. What a heritage you have!
Skip is a young man, my oldest child, a son is older than him, he will be 57 soon. Skip has stated recently that he, too, is a ‘seeker’. No one among us has all the truth, Skip makes mistakes just like everyone else. Personally, I am relatively sure that he wrote this some years back ( we have been with him since 2002 ( I have printed copies of them, because as a former teacher, it took me five years or more on the computer to NOT print what I wanted to keep; as I did not trust the computer keeping it for me!).
I have a habit when it comes to any person’s teachings or preaching or books, etc., just skimming them, and if I disagree; I simply say, “Well, perhaps later, God will show me if it is correct or not.” Then I dismiss it, go on and find something productive to do. When I have time, I come back and look again, or then study it, if I have some need to do so at that time.
We are not called on to challenge everyone that we disagree with. I used to be so determined to do that, and the past several years, it seems that I saw so many older people doing it, that I decided God was telling me, to keep my mouth closed that I did not need to try to teach them everything that I had learned during all those long years of life!
Truly, tonight, as I went back to study Ezekiel, and try to understand Skip’s teaching ( which in itself was good for me); I think this teaching was one, where Skip was taking on a task for too large in scope for a one page devotional. It required more time to give the back ground of the whole purpose of Ezekiel. I personally think more people have not written because they did not have the time to study or knowledge to do so! Most of us are not that familiar with this part of it.
Especially for the many laymen in this group who do work at full time secular jobs, ministries of various kinds, some with small children, or older ones to care for. Some even with older parents that they are the actual caregiver–not just money to put them in a Nursing Home,etc. They do not have the time to spend studying the Hebrew & Greek, or having a background of years of schooling and writing on it. That is why I have been with Skip all these years, to learn.
I believe Skip stated he spent twenty years writing one of his recent published books.— Many of the authors that I have personally known that have written and published, have worked on their Master’s degrees thesis in a chosen field, then when that is completed, are encouraged to start a PhD program and continue working on an extension of that same subject on a dissertation. That is completed, and then eventually it becomes a book. Therefore; they have spent XX-meaning many many years on that subject.
We can not compete with them in that area, nor should we desire to do that. God has given us other things to do. — EQUALLY IMPORTANT IN HIS SIGHT–
-Thankfully, we have things written in the Word, about the importance of every member of the body, and that we all fit together! — As I wrote months ago, we should not bow down to the intelligentsia, just as we should not bow to the wealthy!
Helen, perhaps this simply written , will help on Ezekiel 4:4: “You are to bear their sin”.— a representative rather than a substitutionary bearing of sin. The prophet’s action symbolized Israel’s sins; it did not remove them.—- Also look at v. 5, as I read this verse it was only for a period of time, given to them.— –
—- Peace in the New Year! No matter what ‘day’ it comes on, or who has celebrated it previously or how they did it, let it start, and let us give thanks through Ruach HaKodesh for that DAY!
At our ages, we are glad for one more healthy Day with Y H W H. L.B.
Thank you, LaVaye. You have exhibited biblical wisdom.
Dear L.B.
Thank you for your kindness in attempting to smooth the troubled waters here. I have no defense for my words of concern, or for not understanding what I read in Prophetic Calling. I was not challenging Skip “because I disagreed with him”. I sincerely wanted to know what his post meant. I still do not!! But it no longer matters, and for that I am deeply grateful.
I pray that the year 2011 will bring to you (and to all here) so many, and such rich, blessings from our God that you may be astounded at the length and breadth of them, enriching your lives in ways that you never imagined.
By His Grace,
Helen
As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; Luke 24:15
My Dear “Beloved Friend Helen Wolf”, ( even your name is interesting!–I often smile thinking of the possiblities of how the last name entered your husband’s family. Was that ever spoken to you?
And to the last paragraph you wrote: Helen, if I were free, and had the time to write you, and the others in this Group, what the Lord has done the last few weeks in the life of our second military man ( with a wife, & two very young children, that we have yet to see, as she refused to move with him even though she chose the little 83 year old remodeled petrified rock house) that is a block from us. Recall, that Ed and I, minister simply one on one -as the Lord places people in our path, and we sense that we are to help them. Yes, often, they are just walking by our yard with a few 600 year Live Oak trees -after years of Oak Wilt killing the majority of them in the entire area; and all the landscaping we have done physically ourselves, even to the lawn where we laid the sod in a cold wet March the first fall we lived here ten years ago. — The first time we saw the new military neighbor , we were speaking casually to him, and he jumped up from doing mechanical work on a motorcycle – (in order to get to the Military base about 40 miles from here, as his wife had moved two hours away, and taken the only car). He was so eager to meet us and tell us the above, and much more! Then he pleaded for us to pray with him there for HELP in every area of need. There were so many needs!
This was about the fastest, and most honest need for help that we have ever gotten. He is now in training to complete his work to become a Black Hawk Helicopter pilot, and will deploy in late Spring or early summer to Afghan. He is 30 years old, and already had one tour there as a gunner, and now will be in the pilots seat. We gathered him under our “prayer wings”, his father had been a pastor of small churches on the East Coast where they lived, so he knew much of the Word, but confessed he had not been walking the talk.
We stood firm with patience, love, lots of home cooked food, encouragement, and showing him where he needed to go with the Word of God, especially in his role with his wife and children. He has walked through these weeks ( we met him about two weeks before Thanksgiving Day) obedient with a desire to become ALL that God Intends for him and his family. Studying the Word, absorbing everything that we have put in front of him, when he was not at the base training. We got him an old 1995 one owner car –yes, it really is, we knew the lady that had bought it new. It needed work, he did what he could and we had someone else do the rest, he has driven to Dallas to see his wife and children three week-ends. I might add the first time the car had trouble, he got home, and more work was needed on it.
This past week-end, Christmas time; our young military man went to see his wife and children, the car did great, but best of all, Helen, all of the words you wrote above for the year 2011, were actually beginning to be fullfilled in so many ways while he was there!
Thank you Helen for writing : ” I pray that the year 2011 will bring to you (and to all here) so many, and such rich blessings from our God that you may be astounded at the length and breadth of them, enriching your lives in ways that you never imagined.”——
That is what happened! Our hearts are so full of JOY, AWE, over the blessings he has received. So much more, but must get busy in the kitchen! ——- SKIP, I so appreciated your note today–I think! L.B.
LaVaye, thank you for this precious message to me!!!! To answer your question about my husband’s name, his mother was Scottish, and married Charles Wolf who was of German descent That is about all I know of the Wolf lineage…….nothing! : )
You have blessed me with sharing the joys you have experienced lately. May our Lord continue to place people in your pathway to whom you may be His minister.
In His Love,
Helen
Dear LaVaye,
I replied to your lovely post me, but now it seems to have disappeared. : (
Helen
Dear Helen,
Just a note on posting. For some reason (which I can’t explain), some of your posts are going to the “to be approved” file. This should not be the case since once I approve the email address of someone who posts, all posts from that address are automatically entered into the blog without further approval needed. Is it possible that you are adding a blank character or something accidental when you post some of these? I have approved all of them that I have, but if any are missing now, I don’t know where they went.
Good morning, Skip!
Thank you for that explanation of my “missing” posts. The one in question has now been found, and approved by you. Not to my knowledge did I add a blank character (don’t even know what that is : ) ). If I did something accidentally, not sure how to determine that.
I am glad that LaVaye now has my reply to her lovely post to me, and thank you for rescuing it for me.
Helen
Dear Mary,
You wrote one of many of my favorite verses in the Word of God” “On the Road to Emmaus”. I still remember the first time that verse was quickened to my Spirit, it was so awesome; I have no idea how many years ago—- perhaps 37. It still moves me to read it today. Thank you for writing it.
I think I am back in the land of the living after all of the very large group of descendants we had starting Tues. before Thanksgiving and going through Sunday. what an interesting experience to host for five days at least 21 of our blood loved ones, some of course, were spouses. All three of our little great-grandchildren came, two from St. Louis, Mo.– Two grandsons with their “brides” as of this year, one from Tucson, AZ, one from Colombus, Ohio. Our son and wife from Tucson, came too. The rest are Texans.
Only, our CA daughter, husband and two sons were not here. They had been in June, and have found living in CA, which I call “out-of-bounds CA”, allows one vist per year! L.B.
As I listened to the back and forth between Skip and Helen, initially I was saddened by the lack of understanding and yet so pleasantly relieved when He showed up. He has promised to be in the midst when 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name. Even in our misunderstandings, He comes alongside and brings peace. How beautiful is the shalom He brings. How beautiful are the feet of them who bring good news. Thank you Skip and Helen for following Messiah. I have witnessed other “Christian” blogs where the escalation was no less viscious than ultimate gladiators. But it appears you both have shown yourselves to be good students. I praise Him for you both.
Thank you, Mary.
Helen
Hi everyone, I know it is way too late for a comment, but I only got to my computer now.
As I understand it, you are both correct > Yeshua, being God ( I believe) is the only Saviour and the only One who gives rebirth from above( being born again). I can evangelize, pray for someone, but I do not have the power to give Spiritual rebirth or eternal life, only God can do that. Ezekiel( the prophet,you and I) just shows another attribute of Yeshua, that is to bear the iniquities or sins of others. As I understand it, Ezekiel cannot take it away, he just carries it for them. But having something in common with Yeshua does not make him God. In able to learn to walk the walk of Yeshua must I not learn to be less me and more of Him and also strive to become a living sacrifice?
HOW AND WHEN DO I BEAR THE SINS OF OTHERS?
These are my examples of how I think it happens around us all the time, don’t know if I am totally missing the point:
* new years eve (wild) party on Sabbath, all my friends and closest family go, even those who usually keep Sabbath – my heart is torn to pieces because of their disobedience and I pray please forgive them and right their I am willing to become a substitute for their punishment, because I love them dearly and feel so ashamed before the Lord for their sakes.
* the moment I feel the effect of the economics, violence, poverty or corruption of a town, state or country, I feel the punishment that Israel and Judah deserved.
* my grandchild is near death because of a car accident, I say ” please Lord take me instead” , then I am prepared to be the substitute sacrifice and bear the iniquity of the drunk driver that caused the accident
*my neighbour looses all their earthly belongings via flood, gambling ect. The moment I listen to God ( even though I don’t like the ungodly crowd and it wasn’t my fault) and share mine with them, I bear their sins and the punishment that Israel and Judah deserved
* my friend tells me about their missionaries in an Eastern country( never experienced violence towards believers)They receive a prophetic warning that a third will die and so it did happen a month ago. Weren’t they the sin bearers of all the unbelievers around them?
* even if the legal system does not condemn the innocent directly, are the innocent not all effected by a poor legal system when it let the rapist , murderer go free and then I have to bear the concequinces( spelling!) and iniquities of their decisions.
Whether we carry the sins of others knowingly or unknowingly, willingly or unwillingly, just for a second or unto death, the fact is that Ezekiel had something(big) in common with Yeshua and hopefully you and I have too.( even just a little DNA)
In humility I truly want to respond very positively to : DO YOU STILL WANT TO ANSWER GODS CALLING? Yes, yes as always, but only AND ONLY if YHWH will show me HOW. For the HOW is constantly changing. This has been my plea and prayer coming out of the old and going into a new Greek year.
Shalom
THANK YOU for such clarity.
“Prophets are not called to proclaim. They are called to stand in for God. They are called to display His suffering, to die for those who would rather live without the Father.”
Hi Skip,
I’m wondering if the rabbis always saw Yeshua as a prophet?
And if not, did they see him as a false prophet?
I am quite sure that those who rejected what he said saw him as a false prophet. But then that’s what they thought about Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea and Amos too.
Makes me think of the movie, A Few Good Men, with Jack Nicholson.
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Col. Jessep: [shouts] You can’t handle the truth!
An appropriate comment for nearly all of us. The truth is PAINFUL, isn’t it?
But it’s the kind of pain we feel after a very strenuous physical effort that nearly exhausts us. We accomplished the goal but it really hurt.
“The truth is PAINFUL”
Hi Skip,
As you pointed out some time ago in your review of The International (2009).
The screen writing is really quite excellent.
The troubleshooter says when looking at a painting of one of the old masters.
That he “likes the look of agony because he knows that it is real” (Emily Dickenson).
In my view, pain is the great gift from God.
Because it forces us to focus on Him.
That was some kind of debate. I just wanted to add these verses, Heb.13:12-14. This is how the prophets acted in the stead of Israel not even seeing the Messiah, yet their lives are a picture of Yeshua’s ministry for us, they weren’t the full picture of the redemptive plan, He was. Now coming to revealing or revelation of full restoration, we as believers are still that picture to a lost and dying world. We are not the fullness but we are to resemble the picture.