Once More into the Breach
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever -“ Genesis 3:22 NASB
Live forever – Before we attempt to understand this tangled verse, we need to listen to Ellul. “Hebrew thought was sown in a field nourished by Greek thought and Roman law. [in a footnote] A familiar example of the mutation to which revelation was actually subjected is its contamination by the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul. I will briefly recall it. In Jewish thought death is total. There is no immortal soul, no division of body and soul. Paul’s thinking is Jewish in this regard. The soul belongs to the ‘psychical’ realm and is part of the flesh. The body is the whole being. In death, there is no separation of body and soul. The soul is as mortal as the body. But there is a resurrection. Out of the nothingness that human life becomes, God creates anew the being that was dead. This is a creation by grace; there is no immortal soul intrinsic to us. Greek philosophy, however, introduces among theologians the idea of the immortal soul. The belief was widespread in popular religion and it was integrated into Christianity. But it is a total perversion. Everything is not now dependent on the grace of God, and assurance of immortality comes to be evaluated by virtues and works. All Christian thinking is led astray by this initial mutation that comes through Greek philosophy and Near Eastern cults. . . . belief in the soul’s celestial immortality arose in the second half of the fifth century B.C. on the basis of astronomy. Pythagorean astronomy radically transformed the idea of the destiny of the soul held by Mediterranean peoples. For the notion of a vital breath that dissipates at death, for belief in a survival of shades wandering about in the subterranean realm of the dead, it substitutes the notion of a soul of celestial substance exiled in this world. This idea completely contaminates biblical thinking, gradually replaces the affirmation of the resurrection, and transforms the kingdom of the dead into the kingdom of God.”[1]
Were you aware of this Hellenization of Hebrew thinking? If we separate ourselves (as best we can) from the pervasive Greek idea of the eternal existence of the soul, will that help us understand this knotty verse? It might. First we need to correct our idea of va-hay le-olam (live forever). Remember that these words find their meanings within the context of recently-freed Israel, in other words, within the context of ancient Egyptian mythology. In Egyptian mythology, unquestionably there is life after death. But it is not clear if such life is full or worth living. Eternal punishment is not part of the thinking of Egypt (nor is it part of the thinking of Israel). In general, the world to come is merely an extension of this world, with all of its consequent difficulties. Therefore, continued existence without death was especially important. Postponing entry into a world of eternal unsatisfying existence was the highest priority. This mythology stands in the background of this complicated verse. It explains the elaborate funeral embalming processes of the Egyptians, including the interment of food, slaves, wives and utensils.
Remove yourself from concerns with the eternal soul and ask, “What message does this verse send to people who came from a culture that prized staying alive at all costs?” Sarna provides a clue. “ . . the text presupposes a belief that man, created from perishable matter, was mortal from the outset but he had within his grasp the possibility of immortality.”[2] What message does this relay to a people who had just emerged from saturation in Egyptian thinking? Sarna comments: “Man, having already exceeded the limits of creaturehood, has radically altered the perspective of human existence. He lives henceforth in the consciousness of his mortality. He may therefore be tempted to change his condition by artificial means, rather than by restoring the ruptured harmony between divine will and human will, . . .”[3]
In other words, this passage in Genesis closes the door on the Egyptian idea that men may somehow postpone indefinitely the specter of death without reconciliation with God. The verse is aimed directly at overturning Egyptian mythology. It is not a theological proclamation about eternal existence through some magical means. It is a statement that the Egyptian idea is impossible. That door is closed and locked shut. God has insured that no magical rite, no fountain of youth, no priestly incantation, no “holy grail” brings everlasting life. Ancient near-Eastern expressions of human acquisition of living forever are false. The only path is the path back to God, teshuvah – repentance.
Does this unknot the passage? Well, it helps. It helps us see that the verse is not about some Greek idea of the eternal existence of the soul. It is about invalidating Egyptian religious beliefs. Who more than Israel needed to know this?
Topical Index: live forever, hay le-olam, Egyptian mythology, soul, Genesis 3:22
Skip,
So when Moses and Elijah appeared with Yeshua on the mountain, were Moses and Elijah resurrected from the dead just for the occasion or were they already in existence “somewhere” and merely made visible for the event?
Since I don’t know, I can only guess, but it is interesting that these two figures have quite a bit of controversy surrounding their “deaths.” I one case, no death at all and in the other case a great deal of uncertainty about whether there is a death.
Don’t you get frustrated? Just when you think you have an answer to the current question, which you hope is the last, a new one arises. moto perpetuo 🙂
Perhaps Paul had something to say about this:
The idea of the dead “sleeping in the earth” awaiting resurrection and reward or judgement certainly was not new, even in Paul’s day. This is somewhat different from the idea of soul’s “going to heaven to be with God” until judgement day, after which who would want to come back to the earth? Yet, that is where the scriptures describe the resurrected saints living in God’s presence, both during the Millenial reign and after the final judgement with the renewed heaven(s) and renewed earth.
So, then what do we do with this passage in Revelation?
This may again be an example of the translator’s paradigm showing through in the translation choices, since psuche (or variants thereof) is used in the LXX for the Hebrew words ish (Man/male person), chayyah (life, living), lev (heart – feelings, will, intellect, the centre), levav (heart – the organ, mind, understanding, sometimes interchangeable with lev), nephesh (soul, living being) and ruach (breath, spirit – but only of a rational being).
It seems that this verse could easily have been translated as “the spirits of them that were slain for the word of God” rather than “the souls of them that were slain”. This would accord with the idea that the nephesh “sleeps” but the ruach returns to God from whence it came, to be reunited in the resurrection.
I find it amazing that these beliefs that we inherited from our upbringing continue to haunt our thinking – and how difficult it is to let them go as we discover new insights.
“A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion, still”.
With the Revelation verse, for some reason I keep thinking of it in the context of Genesis 4:10 –
“He said, “What have you done ? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground.”
So either the essence/soul/spirit of a person is in the liquid blood portion of the body — or this is simply vivid imagery used to express the full import of the situation.
Leviticus 17 is worth considering in this context:
Every instance where the word “life” appears in this passage it is the word nephesh (the same word used in Genesis where God breathed into Adam and he became nephesh chayyah – a “living soul”. God gives life. The life belongs to God and it is not ours to needlessly take. Even if an animal is killed for food, the blood is to be poured out in acknowledgment that the animals life comes from and belongs to God; we don’t get to take that for ourselves. This is directly aimed I’m sure at cultural ideas that suggest (even today in parts of Asia and Africa) that if you can kill and eat something you can take for yourself some of the characteristics of that animal (e.g. a tiger or lion for strength, speed or hunting ability).
Or there’s this:
Again, blood is equated with life.
With all of that, is it any wonder that they appeared confused by this?
I definitely think you are on to something here, I’m going to have to unpack this for a while.
I just realised another assumption that I had made but never questioned, which also bears on the fifth seal passage in Revelation: where was the altar herein described?
I have always assumed that this altar is in heaven before the throne of God, but is this valid? Is it supported by the context? All the other events that John is describing are taking place on the earth. Why could he not be referring to the altar in the temple in Jerusalem? After all, wasn’t there a large graveyard across the Kidron Valley on the Mount of Olives? Is this not also “under the altar”?
Therefore, John may in fact be describing the “souls” or “blood” of those slain as crying out from the earth, in parallel with the Genesis passage where the “bloods of your brother” (sic. – the Hebrew word is damiym which is the plural form of dam – blood) cry out.
Nice, another example of how we imagine things into the text that aren’t necessarily written.
I wonder if Matthew 23:35 could shed any light on this:
“..so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.”
Yes, it definitely ‘unknots’ the passage. I did not realize that I had embedded that idea in my mind. Thank you for shining a light into another dark corner.
I have a great deal of uncertainty (even angst!) about the validity of “no eternal soul.” When Yeshua said to the thief on the cross beside him, “today, you will be with me in paradise”- Uh… weren’t they, the both of them, all three of them, dying in agony on three crosses? Was Yeshua referring to “another place?”- maybe even a place called “Heaven?” Heaven is a “Greek” myth? If so, I am a greek god!-or a monkey’s uncle-or a clod of dirt!- your choice!
Answer please, the question of the Philippian jailer, in the very simplest terms available to your most educated mind: “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” -Enquiring minds (like me) -want to know?
Yes, what must “I” do to be saved?
Shall we proceed further down this ludicrous path? Saved from what? Who needs to be saved? and why? If “this” is all there is, Yes, “this”- According to the words of Rabbi Sha’ul: ~ If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men ~
~ in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began..~ (Titus 1.2)
Call me a Greek, then, if it please you. Or a Barbarian, or even Steve the Scythian, but if any man, (here we go again..-pardon me- JEW OR GENTILE- it doesn’t matter a hill of beans, if “any man” be IN CHRIST he (or she) is a new creation. Either you is or you ain’t (Mr./M’am) “in Christ.”
If you imagine there’s no heaven, (it’s easy if you try)- no hell below us- above us “only sky”- then I imagine you are not only wrong,- but dead wrong, for my educated friends-(there’s no fool like an educated fool) there is a heaven, there is a hell- and there is a future eternal party that awaits every twice-born child of the King.
But just to be fair, (and to calm down a bit) I will say this, I would be a Christian if there were no heaven- just to know Him in this life- for you see- “eternal life” is not only a quantity, but it is a quality as well! Have we forgotten His words? Most assuredly we have. ~ The thief comes not, but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I AM come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly ~ (John 10.10) This “more abundantly” is what I’m talkin’ about.. Too bad some have never “tasted” the good life- I can sing along with David and a host of others- “Praise God from Whom all blessings flow- Praise Him all creatures here below. Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts- Praise Father-Son-and Holy Ghost. Amen.
~For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.~ (1 Timothy 1.12)
~For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek~ (Romans 1.16)
Salvation??? ~ to the Jew first AND also to the Greek ~
-Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (Acts 16.30) http://www.gospeloutreach.net/saved.html
“Once more unto the breach”
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there’s nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour’d rage;
Shakespeare “KING HENRY V
Well I’ve been battling ill health, family issues, and a “higher up” at work for some time
But for the last three nights, a white egret has been perched across from my door
The first one was gigantic, but next evening it was a very young bird with light grey legs and beak
On the third night the mother whom I know best was there with her long black legs and beak
Each year that tends to be a good sign 🙂
“Each year that tends to be a good sign”
oops,
I meant each “time” of year,
they seem to come visit every 4 or 5 months
but there are always egrets, even gigantic blue ones
in the lower penitencia creek across from my condo
Why I take notes in church:
3 kinds of death:
physical death — Heb. 9: 27
spiritual death–Eph. 2: 1, 4: 18
eternal death (banishment). All who suffer eternal death are conscious, but “shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess. 1:9), these “have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Rev. 21:8).
God created man in an immortal body created to endless existence. After sin entered thru Adam, immortality put on mortality. Jesus came to undo the works of the devil.
“The appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10).
The Immortal God became mortal, “obedient unto death” (Philippians 2:8),
John speaks (perhaps most) of eternal life.
The moment one trusts Jesus Christ for salvation man receives everlasting life. This is God’s gift.
Jesus took back what satan had taken from mankind.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” (John 3:36).
“He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His Name” (John 20:31).
Redemption is instantly effective in anybody just as soon as he is born again, but at that moment the soul does not become immortal, because the soul never lost its immortality. You will live somewhere, conscious, forever.
One day our brother Paul cried out, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” because our bodies are yet under the law of sin and death, but Paul went on to say: “I thank God (there is deliverance) through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 7:24-25).
“for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory” (1 Cor. 15:53, 54).
William Jennings Bryan said this on our subject:
If the Father deigns to touch with divine power the cold and pulseless heart of the buried acorn, and make it burst forth from its prison walls, will He leave neglected in the earth the man, who was made in the image of his Creator? If He stoops to give to the rosebush, whose leaves and withered blossoms float upon the breeze, the sweet assurance of another springtime, will He withhold the words of hope from the souls of men when the frosts of death’s winter come? If matter, mute and inanimate, though changed by the forces of nature into a multitude of forms, can never die, will the imperial spirit of man suffer annihilation after it has paid a brief visit, like a royal guest to this tenement of clay? Rather let us believe that He who in His apparent prodigality wastes not the raindrop, the blade of grass or the evening’s zephyr, but makes them all carry out His eternal plans, has given immortality to the mortal, and gathered to Himself the generous spirit of our friends.
Compare the above to the misery and despair in the words of the agnostic who said:
There is one steady star; and dim from afar,
Comes the solace that dies in its gleam;
There’s the coffin nail’s rust; the brain in white dust;
And the sleeping that knows no dream.
The verses you quote seem very much to support what skip is saying — we do not own immortality, it must be “put on”,… or, … it is granted to those who God chooses.
I think some of the confusion comes from the phrase terms “everlasting” or “eternal”, it’s been a while since I studied them in detail, but I believe the Hebrew concept is “age lasting”. Which can be either finite or infinite.
For example, if a doctor tells me that my disease incurable, he may say, “You will have this forever!”. Meaning – for the rest of my life. For a biblical example:
“…. just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 1:7
The eternal fire had everlasting results — Sodom and Gomorrah was not rebuilt, and no human effort would quench the flames until the job was done. The city was burnt up forever.
This may seem contrived, but as I understand history, Greek influence, and the original Hebrew– all heavily support this original perspective and it’s change to how modern Christianity now views it.
Er, I dunno, there……hold on…let me re-word it this way–the body doesn’t have immortality, (Adam lost it for us) the spirit does. Bodies die (now), we witness “dust death” all the time. But I believe the spirit returns to God. One day the 3 unit man; body, soul, spirit will be re-united.
But in any case, I think only the body can be killed, not the spirit, which I believe is always immortal. So an immortal spirit is not going to be laying around in the dirt unconcious–which is what I think Skip is saying he believes.
When the 3-fold unit is restored, the body part of it will never die again, it will have the same immortality as the spirit always had. Once the ‘essence of Gabe’ was made, you are permanent.
There was a time we weren’t, but henceforth, there never will be a time we will not be. No soul sleep/annihilation. Our spirit can be driven away from God’s presence, but its not dead. Better it were when talking about eternity.
Without Jesus as blessed Savior, a being will go to everlasting seperation/punishment/hell, and the complete 3 part unit will be there, body, soul, spirit.
Adam died. A whole list died. “he died and he died and he died”. But Not their spirit, it did not die. This is as plain as I can say it. Does this frame still support Skip’s view? — honest question here.
All in all, words are so difficult, no wonder its hard to communicate what we really believe.
So we live it instead?!
Yes, these things can be very difficult to articulate — which is kinda why I have been trying to discipline myself to comment here more often. It also helps me pay attention better to what Skip and others are saying if I know I know I will comment on something.
Anyways, I think I know what you are trying to communicate. And when I first heard this perspective I did word searches on every single mention of soul, spirit, hell (sheol/gehenna), Hades, and breath. I found that the overall picture was pretty clear, with only one or two “problem” verses. However, when if I switched back to the “immortal soul” view, I found just a few verses in support, and many verses to the contrary. This, with the history of Hellenization of Hebraic ideas – was more than enough to convince me.
This also finally settled the whole “Why would a just God burn people forever and ever, for doing what come naturally thanks to Adam?”. They don’t go on forever, they are burnt up forever.
If you are really curious to whether this perspective might be true, then I suggest taking another look at Genesis 2:7
“Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ; and man became a living being.”
Breath + body = living being (“living soul” in the KJV)
This is the recipe for man. Try looking up “immortal soul” in any translation, you won’t find the phrase anywhere.
The “three-unit man” is right out of Plato. IT IS NOT A BIBLICAL IDEA, regardless of what your preacher tells you. Let’s go read Plato’s dialogues to see the similarity – and then realize that the early fathers incorporated this idea into church thinking in opposition of the Jewish idea. We have tried to demonstrate that the “spirit” is a dynamic-relational concept, not something that we “possess.” It does not belong to us. It is God’s “breath of life” breathed into the collection of dust. It does not exist as something separate from God, as if it were some kind of ethereal “ghost.” All of that idea comes from Plato, and before him from pagan religions on the ancient near-East. The ideas presented by Dorothy in this most interesting discussion do NOT support what I am trying to explain. In fact, they are precisely what I believe is not supported by Scripture. The verses used, however, understood in their own culture and time, do support what I am trying to elucidate.
I believe scripture does teach that a believer has eternal life as a gift of God. no one other than the believer has this gift. So returning to eternal life–where does it go when the body dies? Again I believe it can be proven from scripture that it goes to paradise. This is where Jesus and the thief went “this day”, Jesus did not go to heaven to find paradise for He said to Mary. Don’t touch me for I have not yet been to the Father ( I am not yet glorified). Eph 4 says He was in the lower parts of the earth. I believe He was there for a purpose as taught in Eph to lead captivity captive (to make us one with the saints). One new man. We are Jewish aren’t we?
Please refer to the more than 4000 Today’s Word editions on these subjects. Your exegesis needs to be carefully considered before you march down this road. (And I just don’t have time to go back through it all again). Sorry. But keep asking, “What would this mean to the audience that first heard it?” If that audience was first century Jews, then how can the words mean something they have never heard of?
The Hebrew idea usually translated “forever” or “everlasting” is indeed “sequence without apparent end.” However, it is not infinite in the theological sense of “outside of time.” It is simply the continual extension of temporal experience. This is a significantly different idea than the Greek concepts of time (by the way, Hebrew has NO word for “time” as an unspecific noun).
Skip, I googled your name and “forever” because I thought it was you that I saw somewhere previously that had said that in Hebrew forever did not mean forever as we understand it in English. I also know that this is from a while ago and I’m just hoping that you will see this.
Okay, there are two things that I am curious about.
1. Forever – from what I am gathering from the text above and from your comment is that the word that is translated into English as “forever” does not actually mean “forever” in that sense. From what I understand, the word means something like a very long time. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
If this is the case, then it sheds a very different light on some passages in Scripture when they talk about “forever”.
2. Death – so, I just want to understand what you mean here. Do you mean that when we die, that we die completely. That the body goes back to the earth and the spirit returns to the Father, but then at the resurrection a body is re-created and the spirit from the Father then is put back in that new body. Is this what happened to Yahushua? Is that why the disciples did not recognise Him? Will we have the same spirit that we had before we died? Will we remember things that we have done in this life? What happens after this? I remember in Revelation that there is the resurrection and the second death (Revelation 20:14-15). So, does that mean that YHWH resurrects the wicked by putting them back together and then throws them in the lake of fire?
Part of the reason I want to ask you about this is that I have a friend who has been depressed and he said that one of the only things that is holding him back form actively committing suicide is the fact that he is afraid of eternal punishment forever. Obviously I don’t want my friend to commit suicide but I also don’t want to have the wrong information for for him and for me.
The other reason is that I really want to understand these words. I really want to understand what YHWH meant when he was communicating with the audience of the day….so that i can understand what they understood.
Thank you for your work. It has opened my eyes! It has given me pause to step back and realise just how much of the culture that I live in has influenced my life and way of thinking.
OK, first, take a look at the Hebrew word in The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) where the author of the article explains that the word usually translated as FUTURE forever is actually a word that can be applied to any indeterminate period of time, past or future. It’s worth reading.
Second, yes, I think that at death the body returns to the ground (as the Bible says) and the animating force returns to its owner, God. I am pretty sure the idea of the eternal existence of the soul comes from Greek philosophy (see Ellul). That said, I have not made up my mind about the images of eternal punishment found in the New Testament, but not in the Tanakh.
Thank you for the insight Skip. I will try to get a hold of the TWOT.
Also, the second point on eternal punishment has been a very, very interesting recurring discussion for us. We could not find evidence for eternal punishment in the Old Testament. Of course, that does not mean that it does not exist, but why is it not spoken about if it DOES exist. However, in the NT there are interesting passages……including the section about the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched in Mark 9 and the passages in Revelation about the lake of fire. Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:24, how the rich man was being tormented by fire. There are probably more that we discussed but those are the ones off the top of my head. Both of us would like to know but at the same time I’m glad that he does not know because I want him to not do something against himself.
It is interesting how Scripture in both OT and NT seem to go out of their way to show that the body and soul is connected. Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30 & Deuteronomy 6:4 talks about loving YHWH with all your heart, soul and strength (mind as well in NT).
Thanks again for the response. I will try to get a hold of TWOT and do more reading.
Sonia,
If I may add something here: I think Daniel 12:1-2 adds something meaningful to the conversation. I also think David H. Stern’s CJB translation should be considered:
biblegateway dot com/passage/?search=daniel+12&version=CJB
I cannot speak to the Hebrew, but the LXX Greek (translation of the Tanakh ca. 200BC by Jewish scholars) under what Stern terms “everlasting life” is zōē aiōnios, and “everlasting shame and abhorrence” is diaspora kai aischynē aiōnios. At issue is the meaning of the word the Jewish scholars translated aiōnios in this context.
Thank you very much for the input Craig. Greatly appreciated!
Daniel 12:1-2 (CJB)
“When that time comes, Mikha’el, the great prince who champions your people, will stand up; and there will be a time of distress unparalleled between the time they became a nation and that moment. At that time, your people will be delivered, everyone whose name is found written in the book. 2 Many of those sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and abhorrence.”
“some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and abhorrence.”
i have read all of Scripture but I did not remember these verses and that reference to everlasting life and everlasting shame and abhorrence. Thanks for bringing them to my attention.
I have heard some different views One view that there is everlasting eternal punishment burning in “hell” forever. Another view that there is punishment but that the fire goes out once the fuel source is used up. I think I remember another view that YHWH would not create hell/punishment because He is loving.
Just want to understand what the truth is. To me, in some ways, it actually does not make a difference. I do not believe we should be following YHWH and obeying Him for what we get out of it or to avoid punishment. YHWH is the creator and He deserves everything we have….He wants our love and obedience. As Skip has pointed out in the past, YHWH is an Elohim of action (verb), so how do we demonstrate our obedience? Imitate Paul, who imitated Yahushua….who KEPT the Torah. Also, the prophets kept on calling the people BACK to the Torah. So to me it is a no-brainer!
So, in this regard it does not affect me personally.
Sonia,
As you delve into this, consider the passages that are parallel or allude to Daniel 12:1-2. For example, note Mary’s words to Yeshua in John 11:24, and Yeshua’s response. See also the full context of Matthew 25:46 (25:31-46). And just what is “the Day of YHWH (ADONAI, the LORD)”?
I’ll draw special attention to John 5:28-29, since I’d recently focused on this. First of all, note that, like the Daniel parallel, verse 29 references those who are in their graves, though in John it is “all” rather than “many”. Verse 30 ends with (CJB): “those who have done good to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to a resurrection of judgment.” The word for “resurrection” here is anastasis, which means either a ‘rising up in status’ or ‘resurrection from the dead’, the latter being appropriate here, as Stern illustrates.
The word for “life” is zōē, the same one used in conjunction with aiōnios in the passages translated “everlasting life”. In the NT, physical life is psychē, as in Yeshua lays down his psychē in John 10:17-18 for “his sheep” (John 10:11) in order to provide zōē aiōnios (John 3:14-16; 5:21, 24, 29; 10:28; 12:25, 50). Note Yeshua’s words to his Jewish adversaries in John 10:28 (CJB):
Going back to John 5:30, the word translated “judgment” is krisis, a juridical term. Given that the ultimate permanent condition of “my sheep” is that they “will absolutely never be destroyed”, what do we think is the destiny of those who are not Yeshua’s sheep?
Please understand that I’m only attempting to assist you in answering one part of your question, specifically, ‘what is “eternal life”‘. I’m not offering any opinion on the potential consequences of your friend’s contemplation, and, in fact, have often wondered about this very thing.
While researching a grammatical point wholly unrelated to this subject, I came across specific verbiage that does relate to this topic. At the end of John 6:39 are these words:
…anastēsō auto [en] tȩ̄ eschatȩ̄ hēmera̧
…raise them up on the Last Day (CJB).
The first Greek word is a verbal form of the noun for “resurrection” in John 5:29, as from my above comment (May 20, 2018 7:20 am)—though I erroneously referenced verse 30 instead. Note how Stern capitalizes “Last Day”. The word for “Last” is a cognate of eschaton, from which we get eschatology, the study of the ‘end of all things’. This is the equivalent to “the Day of YHWH (ADONAI, the LORD)”.
Thank you so much for the responses Craig! Your insight is greatly appreciated and there is a lot for me to digest! I’m leaving all this up on my web browser so that I can get back into it tomorrow morning when I’m fresh!
Just to add to this, the word “forever” has had me thinking is another direction for quite a while and it would probably stir up a lot of people. You see, in another vein we have been looking the word “forever” in relation to the Torah. I may be completely off-base, but I do understand what Skip has been teaching about Scripture having cycles. What I’ve wondered if it is many cycles inside one BIG cycle.
I realise that I would need to quote Scripture and this is bigger than I have time to look up right now and quite frankly sometimes the sheer vastness of it overwhelms me. However, from my reading of Scripture, it seems to my small brain that we are EVENTUALLY being restored right back to the beginning….back to the garden. I wrote a note on this at the end of last year….also referencing Skips brilliant videos “Biblical Worldview” – https://www.facebook.com/notes/sonia-orel/do-not-set-your-mind-upon-earthly-thingstheir-god-is-their-belly/10155266460648014/
Has anyone else thought this? I know that others have talked about restoration, but to what extent? Do they think there will still be animal sacrifices? I realise that the temple is going to be restored and I think there will be animal sacrifices but for everything to be perfect surely death is the last enemy to be destroyed. How then does the temple and the sacrifices AFTER death is done away with. How then does that reconcile with the law being kept forever (Psalm 119:44). There may be other places.
That is another reason why I was curious about the word “forever”.
Is YHWH not going to restore us right back to the beginning before death entered the cosmos?
With regret I must object. Your idea of the immortal soul, and the verses used to proof-text the doctrine, only displays a thoroughgoing Platonism. How is it that the Israelites had the Tanakh for nearly 2000 years and never came to the conclusion that the “soul” was immortal until after the rise of Hellenism? Where are the verses in the Tanakh, the Bible of Yeshua and Sha’ul, that support such a conclusion? Where does Scripture suggest that Man was created with an “immortal” body? Doesn’t such a statement imply the Platonic division of “body” and “soul,” a division found nowhere in the Tanakh? Have we been at this so long and still we stumble over the same inherited Hellenism?
It’s time to go back, to read the texts in their context, to question where our ideas came from and trace them to their origins.
I thought of this vs. last night while sleeping.
In saying ‘he’ desires to depart and ‘be’ with Christ,… necessary that I remain in the ‘body’.
Paul shows he knows he is made up of body, soul, spirit.
He wouldn’t think his body was going, and clearly by saying its better for them that he ‘remain in his body’, he was (spirit and ognizant mind) expecting to go be with Christ and leave his body here.
“I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.” (Phil. 1:20-26)
May I post one last thing today? (passage from a book)
When John Todd, a 19th-century clergyman, was six years old, both his parents died. A kind-hearted aunt raised him until he left home to study for the ministry. Later, this aunt became seriously ill, and in distress she wrote Todd a letter. Would death mean the end of everything, or could she hope for something beyond? Here, condensed from The Autobiography of John Todd, is the letter he sent in reply:
“It is now thirty-five years since I, as a boy of six, was left quite alone in the world. You sent me word you would give me a home and be a kind mother to me. I have never forgotten the day I made the long journey to your house. I can still recall my disappointment when, instead of coming for me yourself, you sent your servant, Caesar, to fetch me.
“I remember my tears and anxiety as, perched high on your horse and clinging tight to Caesar, I rode off to my new home. Night fell before we finished the journey, and I became lonely and afraid. ‘Do you think she’ll go to bed before we get there?’ I asked Caesar. ‘Oh no!’ he said reassuringly, ‘She’ll stay up for you. When we get out o’ these here woods, you’ll see her candle shinin’ in the window.’
“Presently we did ride out into the clearing, and there, sure enough, was your candle. I remember you were waiting at the door, that you put your arms close about me–a tired and bewildered little boy. You had a fire burning on the hearth, a hot supper waiting on the stove. After supper you took me to my new room, heard me say my prayers, and then sat beside me till I fell asleep.
“Some day soon God will send for you, to take you to a new home. Don’t fear the summons, the strange journey, or the messenger of death. God can be trusted to do as much for you as you were kind enough to do for me so many years ago. At the end of the road you will find love and a welcome awaiting, and you will be safe in God’s care.”
Anecdotes are interesting, perhaps even courageous and inspiring, but doctrine they do not make.
agreed
As I woke from heart surgery I could feel the new mechanical valve (aortic valve replacement) pounding in my chest. Monstrous volumes of blood- I now felt as if I had a turbo-charger installed. Only problem was , no one ever forewarned me about was the incessant “ticking” sound, reminding me of the crocodile who swallowed the clock on the movie “Peter Pan.” I lay awake for some time wondering how I was going to get away from such an awfully loud racket seeing as how the source of the sound was now residing within my chest!
Somewhat sleep deprived, I got out of bed and wandered down the hospital hallway dragging my monitoring equipment with me, looking for a cup of coffee – hopefully down at the nurse’s station. I then had what I consider to be a very strange occurrence. My brain was saying (no, I’m not making this up)- “run up the stairs!” Say what? “Run up the stairs!”- Friends, I couldn’t hardly walk ten feet and my little boy brain is saying “run up the stairs!” It was then I had the “aha” moment, – I’ve got the brain of a child, the heart of a teenager and the body of an old man- and I said to my “self”- Now look!- w’ere all going to have to learn to play nice together. Yes, all three were present and accounted for: body, soul and spirit. Now if it will make life any simpler, I am going to say (with permission of course!) body-soul- and breath (no Greek commas, but Hebrew dashes!) and quickly add- none will exist without the other, but nonetheless “man” is a tri-une being, reflective of the tri-unity of God, – Father-Spirit-Son, none exist without the other and no, I refuse to even attempt to “explain or expound upon the Trinity, but just to know our God is an awesome God! God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Breath- these three agree in one.
What I am testifying to (or attempting anyway!) is the presence of all three “offices” in me and in you – body-soul- and spirit (or breath). All present and accounted for. There is a body (and it bleeds!) There is a soul and there is breath (the body without breath is in a heap of trouble!!)
Our “body” is what carries “us” around. Should I have a terrible accident and loose a foot or a hand- “I” would still exist. My body carries “me” around and does what “I” tell it to do, swing a golf club, play the piano, hug my wife. It is the “outer court” of the temple of the indwelling Christ, covered with ugly badger skin. Ahh, but the beauty within! – Yes, Christ lives in me! – Isn’t it wonderful? But if “any man” have not the spirit of Christ- he is none of His!
Let’s break out some meat: ~ But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his ~ (Romans 8.9) Friend, you either “got it” or you don’t!- the Spirit of Christ, the Ruach HaKodesh- our Teacher, Comforter and ever present Help and Consolation. Would you like some scriptural backing for this claim? Read His book- it’s in there!
Now, concerning “eternity.” – When does eternity begin and when does it end? Eternity has been going on long before I got here and will be continuing after my exit,- we live, right here-right now- in the midst of, somewhere between “the beginning and the end!”
But far more than the concept, or mere measuring of time is the wonderful discovery “eternal life” is the very life of the Eternal ONE! – Yes, Christ now lives within every blood-bought believer. Do I believe it? Is it written in the Lamb’s Book of life, our Bible? lol!- Yes, – it is! Extra, extra- read all about it!… ~ and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand ~ (but wait!- there’s more!- always more…) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. (John 10.27-30)
Now friends, just in these few verses we see two “members” of the Tri-unity, the Father and the Son!- ( I know, I promised not to talk about it!) but here we see another wonderful fact! – It is the doctrine of the “eternal security of the believer!” Yes, I do believe “once saved, – always saved” and would love to discuss this with “whosoever will!” Not a problem- for “I too, know Who I have believed and am (fully) persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day! Not a shadow of a doubt, praise God, this sheep belongs to the Shepherd! ~
Oh, – may I tell of my Savior and what He has done for me! (such restraint!- Carl, I’m so proud!)
No heaven to gain? No hell to shun? No sin to fear? No Savior to love? If I’m dreaming all this- don’t wake me please,- cause I’m lovin’ it!
I’ll sing with the ones who have eyes to see and ears to hear:
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.
Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Perfect submission, all is at rest,
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.
(Frances J. Crosby, 1873)
Reminds me of a song…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0zSB2WEtwU&feature=related
“Dust in the wind”- certainly true of those who are outside of Christ. Nothing but a pile of dust or inanimate dead clay. Man without God is a dirt clod. It is the Breath of God that animates (gives life to) every living soul, including man. ~Let everything that has breath-praise the LORD!~ Are you breathing? Have you thanked Him lately for your breaths? Is life really that fragile? We are one air bubble away from the exit door, the door marked death.
But for the Christian, to those who belong to the (always) Good Shepherd, “to die is gain.” O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory? For we who are His, are “more than conquerors through Him who loved us – who loved us enough to die in agony and (Yes, brothers and sisters) real red human blood upon the execution stake- the tslav. For the ONE who died on the cross was the ONE who created the hill upon which it stood. Love, Calvary’s Love has conquered and tHis death-burial-resurrection-ascension (and soon to be second advent!) is the good news (the gospel) of Yeshua HaMashiach- Jesus (who is the) Christ.
We are buried with Him by baptism into death. Baptism is a symbol of death. A liquid grave. It is an outward expression of an inward experience, much like wearing a wedding ring- “showing” to all who will witness- “I now belong to Him,” -not for the years of time alone, but for eternity. “Both” now AND forever, we are Ruth!- and He is our heavenly Boaz. (honestly!)
Time itself is also witness to the tri-unity of YHWH. Past-present-future. (Hebrew dashes-not Greek commas!- One cannot exist without the other!) You and I, and every other living, breathing creature on the planet have a past and (hopefully, if God allows) a future, but we “live” in the eternal “now” or present. The present is a gift. The “now” is the gift of God. It is because of the grace of God we are now living and breathing, taking up space on His earth, and it is absolutely, positively ~ because of the LORD’s mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning (noon and night)- great is Your faithfulness… (blood-covenant love). -Lamentations 2.23
Is “baptism” necessary for salvation? Is wearing my wedding ring “necessary” for my blood-covenant union with my wife? No, but it shows to those who I am not married to- I am a married man, I am in blood-covenant union with my better half, the ezer kenegdo, the bipodal blessing God has given unto me. I am hers and (another Hallelujah!) she is mine.
Salvation is also another witness to the tri-unity of YHWH as our salvation/deliverance is also a three-part “Gift” (for lack of a better word!).
We have been saved from the penalty of sin.
~ For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son He loves ~ (Colossians 1.13) Just one verse to keep it simple, seek and find so much more! If we notice the tense “Has rescued, has saved, has delivered” we won’t be so tense! Salvation is, my friends, (Hallelujah!) – a done deal. Listen attentively for it is written: “it is finished.” Mission accomplished.
“Paid in full.” Again, – search the scriptures to see whether these things be so- and our God has promised: “ask God, seek, and you will find, knock (patiently, persistently) and it will be opened to you.”
We are being saved from the power of sin.
Sin short-circuits the mind. Sin is stupid and if sin comes to fruition- it is a form of insanity. To rebel against YHWH is insane. Why? Father (our Father) really does, kids- know best! When He says: Thou shalt not..- what is He saying? “don’t hurt yourself.” and when He says “Thou shalt”- what is He saying? “help yourselves to happiness.” Friends, -it is so. Amen. This “being saved” is the Biblical process known as sanctification, we are being conformed (a word of heat and pressure!) into the image/likeness/eicon of the Son. Salvation is a crisis, followed by a process.
We will be saved from the presence of sin. (and won’t it be nice!)
Heaven is a sin-free place. Unpolluted, unstained, a prepared place for a prepared people. Not one trace of sin will be found there, for darkness cannot and will not live in the Light of His presence, and the Lamb is the Light. Heaven is where Jesus lives, and yes, -this includes all of those “blessed ones” who are now the temple of God- who live and move and have their being, those who live among us-right here -right now on this green planet God created.
~ To an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you ~ (1 Peter 1.4) ~ Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal ~ (Matthew 6.19,20) ~ In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you and if I go prepare a place for you, I shall come again and bring you to join me, that where I am you shall be also ~ (John 14.2,3)
~ But, as it is written, (it is written!) “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him ~ (I Corinthians 2.9) Is this a verse about Heaven? No. It’s verse about loving God with all of our heart-soul-mind-and strength! Commandment #1. (yes, Hebrew dashes-not Greek commas!).
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Are you saying that after death our body and soul (since the two can’t be separated) are resurrected and that then both body and soul have eteranal life? Of course this eternal life is dependent upon our belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as our personal Savior.
Jewish doctrine (and the Genesis account) suggest that at death the body returns to its source – the ground. So does the animating breath of God. It returns to its source. Now here we have to be very careful. Jewish thought does not treat the animating breath (nephesh hayyah) as if it is an independently existing entity like the “soul.” It isn’t a THING. The words describe a dynamic relationship that exists only as long as the two parties are interacting. So, if the animated BODY is dead, the animating force no longer exists in relationship. It doesn’t DIE. It just returns to its only source – God. At the resurrection, all is restored and the nephesh hayyah and the basar are brought together again.
Your confusion stems from trying to hang on to the “body and soul” dualism at the same time you want to express this inseparable identity. Try formulating the thought without “body and soul.”
I have such a hard time with this. What animates an animal? Where does it go when it dies? Isn’t nephesh used for both? I’ve only seen the breath of life used for man. And then there’s that verse in Jn about Yeshua breathing on the disciples. Very strange indeed. This has been bubbling on my back burner for years waiting for a real explanation.
Look at my TW on the Double Yod in the Genesis passage, the only place in Scripture where the word is deliberately spelled wrong. That will help you understand the difference between the dog you love and your husband (maybe 🙂 ).
He’s markedly different from the cat. 🙂
Sorry I’m not finding it.
Try googling “skip moen double yod” and at least 4 different TW come up dealing with it. Not sure which one Skip is referring to, but evevything thing he wrote is all good and profitable for study!
There is one that discusses the difference between animal animation and human animation – only the human animation uses a double you, for specific reasons.
Is it this one?
Dahh
https://skipmoen.com/tag/yod/
https://skipmoen.com/2009/04/09/of-both-worlds/
This is the one
https://skipmoen.com/2009/04/09/of-both-worlds/
Yud is the abbreviation of God’s explicit name, best translated as the Eternal.
So He stamped us with a little bit of eternity maybe in our hearts?
Skip, have you ever noticed that in Gen 2:7 the phrase “breath of life” is in fact a plural construct chain (nishmat chayiym)? And chayiym also has a doubled yod…
No one has used the following reference fully as I recall….
2 Corinthians 5:5-9 (NKJV)
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
Seems to me the Apostle is telling us that when the body dies, we are at that moment present with the Lord–that’s the literal, plain meaning–that’s what I’ve understood all my life.
It has been mentioned before about the thief on the cross being told by Jesus that he would be with Him “today… in paradise.” Luke 23:43
Here’s another plain statement of fact that makes perfect sense when taken literally.