A Temple Not of Human Hands
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22 NASB
Shedding of blood – Rabbi Robert Gorelik argues compellingly that the author of Hebrews gives us a picture of the sacrifice of Yeshua in the heavenly temple. In other words, the forgiveness of sins, accomplished by the shedding of blood, does not occur on earth. Nothing about the crucifixion meets the requirements of a sin offering. Instead, that offering is made in the heavenly temple where the shedding of Yeshua’s blood is performed according to the requirements of the sin offering.
Gorelik points out that Yeshua could not have entered the earthly Holy of Holies in order to make such an offering because He was not a Levite. He was from the tribe of Judah and therefore was prohibited to enter the Holy of Holies on earth. But the heavenly temple has a different priestly order, the order of Melchizedek, and the author of Hebrews takes pains to assure his readers that Yeshua is of that order. Yeshua enters the heavenly Holy of Holies and fulfills the requirements of the sin offering once and only once, unlike the priests of the order of Levi who must annually offer a sacrifice for the people. Two temples, two priestly orders, two different consequences.
Perhaps this helps us understand why the shedding of blood of one man can have universal effect. On earth, one man may die for another. But how can one man die for all? No earthly mathematics can explain such an extension of grace. But in heaven things are different. The sacrifice of one is sufficient for the forgiveness of many. When you read about the relationship between sacrifice and forgiveness accomplished by Yeshua, remember where the offering takes place.
This helps us understand the claim that Yeshua made this offering before the foundation of the world. Death on the cross didn’t occur before the formation of the world. But it isn’t the cross that is in view here. The sacrifice of the sin offering for Mankind takes place in heaven’s timeframe, not earth’s. It is manifested on earth at the time of the death and resurrection. What Yeshua accomplished in heaven finally becomes visible on earth, but it does not mean that forgiveness through the shedding of the blood of the Lamb was not available before the crucifixion. Forgiveness through the shedding of the blood of the Lamb was available as soon as the sacrifice was offered in the heavenly temple. In other words, Abraham was “saved” in exactly the same way that you and I are “saved.” Earthly calendars make no difference.
Perhaps you will want re-read Paul’s statements about the new Adam. Perhaps you’ll need to rethink Peter’s claims, and John’s. You may want to reconsider the entire sacrificial system here on earth. It hasn’t ended. It is merely on hold until the rebuilding of the Temple.
Topical Index: sacrifice, shedding of blood, forgiveness, heavenly temple, Hebrews 9:22
Thanks Rabbi Gorelik for offering this interpretations. I have struggled with this for a long time. I knew Abraham had to be “saved” the same way as we are “saved” today, but found no explanation for my trail of thought.
I am smitten! What amazing teaching and Biblical truths are being spoken here by many scholars!!!!! This IS my “Facebook” (sucking up my time scrolling through) and I can no longer clean and cook for all the searching of Scriptures for myself! However, Ian at a huge disadvantage as I don’t know which translation/text to trust and I don’t know Hebrew.
Alas, I am so joyful to KNOW these things . . . . So life-changing!!! I think/talk about them all the time (and people don’t know what I’m talkin’ ’bout Willis)
Shalom!
Perhaps I am settled on this- “Christ died for sinners of whom I am chief” Perhaps I am settled on this: the veil of the “earthly” temple (and the heavenly) was torn in two from top to bottom”- Perhaps all have access through the blood of Calvary’s Lamb to the very Holy of Holies- the “earthly” meeting place between God and man. Perhaps I will believe the words of Yeshua who said “no man”- (whether Greek or Jew, educated or not, Republicrat or Democran,) may come unto the Father but by me. “Perhaps I will continue to believe that without the cross of Christ- the central event in all of history (which is His Story) none of us have half a hope of a Hallelujah..
Perhaps we wait for another Messiah as the first one seems to be inefficient for change “in this world.” Perhaps I won’t believe my own testimony of the change that is taking place daily in my own life and before my very eyes – “change (radical change)I can believe in.” Perhaps I will refuse to believe of what I have witnessed (an interesting word) in the lives of countless citizens of this world. Change always for the better. Perhaps I will feel sorry for the tribe of Levi who has been put out of business- as this Man’s one Sacrifice for sins was final, complete and sufficient for “whosoever will” – for all time.
Oh, but we still want to cling to our “jobs,” our “positions,” don’t we? Priests, – go home. Go farm your fields, learn an honest trade- ~ for there is one God and ONE mediator between God and man, – the Man (yes, the second Adam) the LORD Jesus (who is the) Christ.
Christ has opened Paradise through the blood of His cross, the New Covenant in His blood. Foreshadowed in the Old Covenant- fulfilled in the New. It is still a blood-covenant only this time, it is His own blood. Old things (including all tradition and rituals) have been done away- behold (He did say)- ~I make all things new.~ Levites, go home. You’re out of work. The blood of bulls and goats and turtle doves are no longer necessary or needed. Abraham did see and did know, ~ God will provide Himself the Lamb.~ He met Melchizedek (was this the pre-incarnate Christ?) and paid Him tribute.
The cross in no way is “anti-Semite.” Salvation (Deliverance if you prefer) is (always) ~ to the Jew first and also to the Greek.~ Brethren my heart’s desire (too) is for Israel to be saved. Go and tell them “a Savior has come.” Tell them of Yeshua the Messiah, KING of the Jews and mighty to save. And the gospel (good news) of the second Adam, is for not only Israel, but for “whosoever will.”
This Man, the son of man AND the Son of God, has given Himself as the sin-offering for the sins of all the world. How can the death of one man accomplish this? (I’m glad you asked..) This Man was (and is) God. ~ God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself ~. The Day God died. The Great Creator became my Savior, and all God’s fulness dwelleth in Him. God became a Man. The Creator became the creature and walked among us- right here on this green planet. ~Never a man spoke like this man~ Why? Because this was not only the son of man- This was God who humbled himself and became a man, breathing the air He created, and walking upon the ground He made, standing before Pilate, crucified upon the tslav, raised to life the third day, and coming again for His own.
Who is this? ~Who is this KING of glory? ~ LORD of lords, KING of kings. NAME above all names. The Word incarnate in human flesh, the sinless second Adam.
“Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, ~ Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing” ~ (Revelation 5.11,12)
The Hero of our Bible, the central character is Christ. ~ And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was said in all the scriptures concerning Himself ~ (Luke 24.27)
~ This is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation/atonement for our sins ~ (1 John 4:10)
~Sirs, what must I do to be saved?~ (to get the right answer, you first must ask the right question) Salvation is not “do”- it is “done”- (finished, final, full, complete, accomplished, “paid in full”- a glorious Gift from a gracious Giver) ~ Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and you will be saved and your house ~ (Acts 16.31, Romans 10.9) ~ Then answered all the people and said, “His blood be on us, and on our children!”~ Exactly. Rest assured, – tHis Blood is for you.
With all that Skip has brought forward here in the above.. I must say that much of it is beyond the norm. I am not a scholar, the LORD GOD certainly knows that. My mind at this time can not get around this and I feel threatened concerning the Blood or death of the LAMB.
Abraham was saved the same way I was: BY FAITH whether I can see what Skip is bringing forth or not. It is by faith in the Redeemer and to HIS WORK for us who can claim this redemption by faith.
Where would this lead us to is my question and I must wait as Skip is NOT done with this yet.
Scholars are certainly needed in this day and age and scholars around the scholars to question as to where the mind of that person is heading. It is the direction that I am concerned about as I hesitate on this one..mmm
Please understand that I am not questioning and I do not doubt the effective sacrifice of Yeshua for the forgiveness of sin. His death IS the offering par excellence. The only question is WHERE it occurred and when, now why and how. THe question raises issues about the Christian doctrine and its relationship to the sacrificial system that acted to point us toward God’s own sacrifice. The question is WHY DID CHRISTIANITY SUBSTITUTE THE CROSS FOR THE ALTAR when it is so clear in the Tanakh that the altar is the focus of forgiveness?
Skip, it is my hope that you will go further with this study and share your understanding of the purpose of the cross, death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua as you alluded to in your comment to Carol (though I think you were referring to my post) yesterday. You were suggesting it had to do with first fruits. Some commented on the pole from Exodus and I too am wondering if “being raised up on the pole” doesn’t have something to do with the cross.
Very fascinating study, mind bending really.
“the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” Y’shua voluntarily offered Himself; of course the sacrifice was on a tree as prophesied. Possibly looking at matzah might lend some understanding to the judgement He bore, as the “Lamb of God”, fortunately He didn’t realize how uneccessary this was.
Perhaps a book . . . A COMPLETE TEACHING book, that way, we don’t have to wait and can go at our own pace (I am still working on yesterday’s, too)
“The question is WHY DID CHRISTIANITY SUBSTITUTE THE CROSS FOR THE ALTAR when it is so clear in the Tanakh that the altar is the focus of forgiveness?”
As I ponder the words that have been said on TW for the last several weeks, one thing comes to mind, are we trying to understand individual words and phrases (which does help us understand better) or do we consider the message God was showing us through the complete Word? Do we lose the forest for the trees?
I have a hard time with the phrase that the altar is the focus of forgiveness. The point of the sacrificial system, in my understanding has to do with substitution. In the OT the altar was the means to accomplish that. In other words, an innocent animal had to die for the sins of the people. The focus is not where the animal and blood was placed (though important) the focus is that an innocent animal died in someones place. Without the death and shedding of blood there would not be forgiveness.
In the NT as Carl has pointed out, there is a new covenant in the blood of Christ. Christ became the substitionary sacrifice, the Lamb that was slain. The Cross became the altar, if you will, where my sin was placed upon the innocent, sinless lamb. That Lamb was offered to God on my behalf. Again the focus is not necessarily on the Cross but rather upon the Lamb that was upon it. Just as with the OT altar, the Cross is the place where humanity and divinity meet.
Hebrews 9:11-12 (NASB95)
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
But your citation from Hebrews is precisely the point of contention, isn’t it? Where did Yeshua enter the more perfect tabernacle and the holy place? Are you prepared to proclaim that Golgatha is the more perfect tabernacle and the holy place? And what Scripture suggests that the altar can be bypassed as the place of the offering? Finally, how would you reconcile the claim that Yeshua’s sacrifice occurred before the foundation of the world with the event of the cross which obviously did not occur before creation? Are you ready to say that the phrase “before the foundation of the world” is only SYMBOLIC? If you do say that, then how do you explain the forgiveness of Abraham and all the others of the older testament period without becoming a dispensationalist?
If you are only considering the phrase “before the foundation of the world” how do we reconcile Rev 17:8 where the phrase has only those whose names are written in the book of life and not the Lamb that was slain. Do we not use scripture to interpret scripture? Why would John have it on way one time and different the next? Just trying to understand.
I am not advocating doing away with altar, just saying the point of the altar is the sacrifice not the other way around.
The other question I have is at what point was the blood sprinkled in heaven according to Hebrews. If before the foundation of the world, did Jesus die twice? Or was that symbolic as you mentioned.
So many questions. I personally do not believe it was symbolic but literally was accomplished.
Skip, Your explanation is interesting and it echoes the Zohar. I’m still just trying to get a plain understanding of the TANAKH and would appreciate clarification on a couple of points:
1. “On earth, one man may die for another. ” How do you reconcile this with:
“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16, II Kings 14:6).
“But everyone will die for his own sin; each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge” (Jeremiah 31:30).
“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself” (Ezekiel 18:20).
“No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to G-d a ransom for him” (Psalms 49:7).
“So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who has shed it!” (Numbers 35:33).
2. My understanding is that there’s no death in the supernal realm. How does sacrifice work in the heavenlies? How does this supernal sacrifice express itself in the earthly sacrifice?
Hmmmmmmm. I don’t know.
I get that this teaching is a counter to replacement theology, and much of dispensationalism – which negate far too many things as “fulfilled”, or “right for THAT time”. However, I always looked at “OT” stuff as pointing forward, and “NT” stuff as pointing backwards — To Christ’s life, death, and resurrection (and all have been saved through the same).
The part that is really stuck in my craw is – “If there were a temple today, would it be right for us to sacrifice in it?”
So the sacrifices would be a continuing lesson until Christ’s 2nd coming – reminding us of what he has already done for us? Is this the chosen object lesson that helps train His bride for purity, even now if it were possible?
It seems like one step too far, but I will entertain the thought.
But you are not considering ALL the different sacrifices that were performed and the ROLE that EACH one played. The sacrifice for sin (UNintentional sin) was not the only sacrifice.
Skip please do some teaching on the purpose(s) for the Tabernacle and Temple and the services.
I know where all this confusion came in my case and that is that I always thought that the purpose for the temple was so that they would have a place to bring a sacrifice when they sinned.
Nothing could be further from the truth! There wasn’t a 25 mile long line of people waiting their turn to get in to sacrifice a lamb for the sin they had committed. But that’s the subconscious vision we hold in our heads.
The purpose of the temple was to provide a place for the people to draw especially near to YHVH and have an extraordinary worship experience with Him. There was a protocol in order that they could approach safely. The sin sacrifice was brought first so that the worshiper had a covering for any unknown unintentional sin or uncleaness so that when he/she brought the rest of their offerings he/she would be accepted.
Think about it folks. What was wrong with and missing from Cain’s offering?
There was and is no sacrifice for intentional sin. He. 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, etc…………….
Repentance is the ONLY way out of this one! 1Jn.1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. etc………………..
Gabe, studying with Skip has made me realize that we read over many passages of the Scriptures, because we don’t want to deal with them. Because if we have to deal with them, we have a problem.
Lately I have been greatly bothered by texts like:
1) (YLT) Acts 24:17 “And after many years I came, about to do kind acts to my nation, and offerings. ” The word offering is προσφορας [prosphoras] and is clearly a sacrifice [see Eph 5:2 as well.]
2) Acts 21: 15-27 which clearly proves that Paul made a nazarite vow, which included sacrifices. And he did this to prove that: vs 24 all may know that the things of which they have been instructed concerning thee — (namely that he taught all the Jews which were among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.) — are nothing, but thou dost walk–thyself also–the law keeping.”
3) Acts 16: 3 where Paul circumcised Timothy.
Paul clearly didn’t believe that the Temple worship was “done away” with. If he would have believe that we don’t have to do the customs of Moses, it would have the greatest opportunity for him to say: “they are right about me, I do believe I don’t have to do those things anymore, I don’t have to keep sacrificing and we don’t need to circumcise or sons…..”
Just because the Temple is destroyed doesn’t necessarily mean that those laws are not valid anymore. When the first Temple got destroy, they were not abrogated either. They came right into full force when the second was build.
So maybe you are right that the sacrifices might be a reminder of what Messiah did for us.
Point taken. I read a good online article “Paul taught Torah”, by Ron Ammundsen, and I am convinced that Paul kept Torah, and the religious festivals, calender, ect. It’s just difficult to imagine the whole temple system reconstructed after almost 2 millenia,… especially without the coming of Christ coming first.
Hi Gabe, the post below was for you but somehow wasn’t posted as a reply to you.
The part that is really stuck in my craw is – “If there were a temple today, would it be right for us to sacrifice in it?”
Hi Gabe,
But wait! There’s even more to think about. Read Ez. 40-47:2
This prophecy is yet to come. This temple and it’s sacrifices have yet to exist. Who built this temple? Where did it come from? Is this section just filling up space like one of our previous pastors told us or is it a section of scripture that G-d changed His mind about like others believe?
If this temple where here today would you bring sacrifices to it? In light of the details revealed in Ez. (which are nothing like the one being designed today by the “Temple Institute” in Jerusalem by the way)
I would be inclined to worship there.
Especially in light of ; Zec. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fighteth in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, so that there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the LORD my God shall come, and all the holy ones with Thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that there shall not be light, but heavy clouds and thick;
7 And there shall be one day which shall be known as the LORD’S, not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light.
8 And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem: half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea; in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall the LORD be One, and His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as the Arabah, from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; and she shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more extermination; but Jerusalem shall dwell safely.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight against Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso of the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, they shall have no overflow; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses: HOLY UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’S house shall be like the basins before the altar. JPS
Maranatha
Interesting. I’ve actually been arguing with myself about this one. I find myself spiritualizing the passage, or pushing it into the future (after Christ’s 2nd Coming) — even though those are things done far too often with many scriptures. My mind just naturally goes there.
I feel like history is winding down, and re-establishing a temple seems like something that would happen if Christ wasn’t coming back anytime soon. Of course, this probably also has something to do with my pre-millennial views, and a re-established temple seems to fit a post-millennial POV a bit more.
I’m thinking we’ll be going up to this Temple is during the millennium.
>>Gorelik points out that Yeshua could not have entered the earthly Holy of Holies in order to make such an offering because He was not a Levite. He was from the tribe of Judah and therefore was prohibited to enter the Holy of Holies on earth.<<
I can't believe my ears!
Jesus is GOD! He is SUPREME!
As in “highest in rank or authority or degree or quality.”
None better. The supreme of something is its ultimate.
Jesus is the ultimate in power, glory, authority, and importance. Jesus’ supremacy over all is developed biblically primarily in Hebrews and Colossians.
He is the actual fulfillment of the old way of doing things and is therefore greater than those ways. Concerning the temple system under the Mosaic Law, the author of Hebrews writes, “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises” (Heb. 8:6).
Jesus is greater than the Old Testament system. He both encompasses and supersedes the old way of doing things.
Christ is both before all things and encompasses all things (“in Him all things hold together”). Summed up on one word, SUPREME.
Jesus is wholly other, supreme over all.
The cross is the intersection of God’s love and His justice. The meaning of the cross is death. Death to the old, Ressurection in newness of life. It is 'the' middle point of everything, time included.
[Some object to the use of AD. It simply means "the year of our Lord". Why is that offensive I wonder. Every minute so happens to be "of our Lord"]
What was accomplished through His death on the cross? — see Romans 3:24-25. Believers in Christ have been “justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed."
These verses are a key point in Paul’s argument in Romans and are the heart of the Gospel, which is the message of the church!!!
I am not ashamed of the cross.
Hi Dorothy,
Was He slain in the Temple where the sacrifices, according to the Law, took place? Do we have any citing of His entering the Holy of Holies and performing the offering according to Torah? I think it is appropriate to look at this as His sinlessness. Yeshua obeyed fully! He “fulfilled” the Law to the enth degree. Yes, as Sovereign He COULD have gone over the heads of the Levitical priesthood and usurped what rightfully, as G-d, He created and owned. But, in meekness and obedience to the Master’s Plan, He performed the perfect Law of Love.
The evil perpetrated by some of the hierarchy of Jewish leadership at the time, may have provoked the Romans to perform the crucifixion, however, honestly, this act was according to Roman practice, and not Jewish Temple protocol.
For quite some time now, I have wondered why Christianity is so focused on an object that borders on disobeying the commandment against graven images. I would rather hear about the glorious G-d/man Christ and see Him obeying His Father, than the object of wood used to kill Him. Might I add that I was one of the grossest offenders of this borderline idolatry. I wore crosses for years, but no longer. If the world needs to see that as identification, then something is wrong with me or the world. Tell me of HIM, not a piece of wood (or silver, gold, diamonds, etc.)
Show me Christ!! His mission, that He chose to accept, was to go about being and doing good and YES, to die for our willful sin. He spoke volumes in everything He did, from creation to His present ministry…the execution stake, I’m sure, rotted at some point.
Praise the Name of Yeshua!
Good Morning friend Mary, —
Christianity has never been about the stake, it has always been about the man, Christ Jesus! Since a little girl, I was never taught wood was central. Jesus is central. Mankind didn’t make Jesus’ cross, only God can make a tree. The very thought of His creation of that tiny seed, the planting, sending rain and sunlight, providing shelter, to grow His own device is so tender as to still cause my eyes to mist.
I do have some cross jewelry, but I also have some black bear, bluebird, square stones, and interesting-shaped turquoise pieces, too. I worship none of these. I am for crosses displayed in public places, too, and the Ten Commandments.
The church meeting house I attend does not have a cross in the building that I ever saw, except for a depiction in a long hallway mural that also depicts the fresh new creation, Adam and Eve, Noah’s ark, a rainbow, the tower of Babel, etc, you get the point, –a scroll of events. The focus is on events.
Those meeting places that have a cross up front behind the pulpit, they don’t worship it either. The dangers of hell are often spoken of, and nobody worships that either. (ok, sorry, trying to make you giggle a bit here.)
I want to say tho, that site of the cross, still causes me to lower my eyes and ponder, and send worship straight to heaven, for His intentional coming to do that thing for me! And if He had come in an age when the electric chair was the execution device, –there would lie in my small jewlery box a tiny little replica of an electric chair. I am not ashamed of the delivery table of my salvation.
NOTHING replaces the God-Man! Speaking for myself, and I think, those called according to His purposes.
I don’t know if you knew of Dr. Koshy, he recently died [as we say]. I paste/copy the below so you can see how he was changed from the intellectual platform also.
Fact being, –everything, everything– must give way to Jesus!
Its long, but its something I really hope you will read. —
TESTIMONY: GANDHI by Dr. T.E. Koshy (from page 74 of The Invested Life)
I had great plans to become a high-powered lawyer and reach the educated elite of my country for Christ or to become a foreign correspondent and travel the world, covering the great events shaping our times.
My destiny was not—I was convinced—on the dusty, dirty, poverty-stricken streets of India. It was in receiving a world-class education and walking the halls of power in the world’s most important capitals. In following my ambitions, I would go on to pursue and receive five college and university degrees and travel to Washington, DC, as a journalist, eventually covering President Lyndon B. Johnson at the White House.
But my discipler, Brother Bakht Singh, frequently challenged me. “The only thing God is building in this world is his church,” he would say. “Why write about history when you can make it? Why spend your life reporting about the lives of the rich and famous when you can invest your life helping the humble and the needy meet the God who loves them and gave himself for them? If you have no successor, are you truly a success?” Such were the questions that seemed to ring in my ears.
It took me many years to understand how I was supposed to apply the lessons I was learning from Bakht Singh to the unique plan and purpose God had for my life. For one thing, when it came to being a practicing lawyer or journalist, God made it clear to me his answer was “No.” He wanted me to go to Bible college in England and prepare for the ministry. I struggled with that, but eventually I went in obedience.
While in England, some people connected with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship who knew I’d been discipled by Brother Bakht Singh invited me to embark on a speaking tour through all the major universities of England, including Oxford and Cambridge. I couldn’t believe it.
I arrived at Oxford University to speak to a group of doctoral candidates, most of whom were not Christians. I was assigned a subject to speak on, specifically the uniqueness of Christ and the futility of philosophy. So of course, I brushed up on my reading of all the great philosophers such as Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato. I gathered quotations from all these important people and prepared a twelve-page lecture to present the next day. At midnight, I was on my knees praying, asking the Lord to bless my presentation. After all, I had seen Brother Bakht Singh pray about everything—absolutely everything—and I was seeking to follow his example. But something happened I didn’t expect—and didn’t like.
The Lord said to me very clearly, “Throw that lecture in the dustbin.”
“What? Lord, what do you mean by that?” I asked, stunned. “Then what shall I speak about?”
“Tell them about your experience with me,” the Lord said.
“Lord,” I argued, “I came to know you at ten years old. I was not a murderer. I was not a drug addict. I don’t have exciting stories to tell these people. Lord, don’t you know? These are not Sunday school kids. They are brilliant. This is Oxford University.”
But the Lord said to me, “Listen, who knows better, you or me? If you know better than I do, why are you asking me to bless this lecture that you’ve written? If you want me to bless your talk, then tell them your experiences with me.”
“Lord, you are giving me a very hard task,” I said glumly.
I must confess, that night I had a real hard time with the Lord. Here I was on a speaking tour for him, but I didn’t want to do God’s work God’s way. All night, I wrestled with what God was asking of me, my pride battling against my faith.
The next day I arrived at the lecture hall, and the chairman introduced me—very formally, as they do in England—explaining the subject I was assigned to speak on. Imagine, then, his surprise when I stood and said, a bit sheepishly, “Yes, I was going to speak on that subject. In fact, I prepared this lecture . . .” I held it up because I wanted them to know I could do better than what I was about to do. My ego at work. “But I’m not going to deliver it.”
A hush settled over the crowd. My stomach was tied up in knots.
“As I was praying last night, the Lord asked me to tell you about my experiences with Jesus. Perhaps some of you may not like it,” I said, having little doubt about that.
I was already seeing my Waterloo, my downfall and humiliation. Okay, I thought. These fellows will never invite me back to Oxford. This is the end of it. But yes, Lord, I will obey (however begrudgingly). I continued speaking. “So I prayed and asked the Lord, ‘What do you want me to speak on?’ He said, ‘Christ the Savior, Christ the Sovereign, Christ the Sufficiency, Christ the Strength, Christ the Supplier, Christ the Security, and Christ the Soon-Coming King. He gave me the outline last night while I was on my knees.” Then I shared from my heart how the Lord had become real to me in each of these seven ways. After speaking, I just wanted to hide myself.
When it was over, the audience clapped in their traditional, formal way. The chairman of the lecture said, very politely, “Well, thank you, Mr. Koshy, for coming and enlightening us. Now, if any of you would like to talk to him about anything further, he will be available.”
Where’s the door? I thought. I was sure nobody would stay.
But no one left. To my utter astonishment, not a single student left the lecture hall. Instead, each and every one of them formed a line to ask me questions. Many teared up as they shook my hand, barely controlling their emotions, and said, “Come back again; we want to hear more of this kind of lecture.” I couldn’t believe my eyes or ears.
Then I noticed one Indian—the only other Indian in the entire room—standing at the end of this long line of students waiting to talk with me. I knew this young man had to be somebody important, to have the education and wealth and influence to be here at Oxford University. I desperately wanted to meet him and talk with him. I was afraid the long line would discourage him and he might leave. But I couldn’t exactly walk away from everyone else and go directly to this Indian. What could I do?
I began praying in my heart that the Lord would constrain this fellow to stay so I could meet him, and the Lord answered my prayers. Though it took more than half an hour before his turn came, this young Indian man came and grabbed me by the hand and said, “Sir, I want to thank you for coming and speaking on your experiences with Jesus. Ever since I came to Oxford, I have been going to churches to hear about Jesus Christ. All I have been hearing have been philosophical discourses, far removed from the realities of God.”
Inside, as I listened to this enthusiastic, grateful student, I felt ashamed. For that was exactly what I was going to tell this audience. That was exactly what I had prepared. A philosophical discourse.
“But today you came,” he continued. “You spoke to us from your heart about your own personal experiences with Jesus. Perhaps many may not agree with you. But no man can refute what you said.”
“What is your name?” I asked him eagerly.
“My name is Ramchandran,” he said.
“What is your last name?” I pressed.
“Please don’t ask me that,” he replied. “The moment people hear my last name they behave as though I have no first name. I am sick and tired of that. So please don’t ask me.”
I asked him again, but he resisted.
“Please,” I implored him. “Please.”
He hesitated, but then he lowered his voice and said, “If you insist, it is Gandhi.”
I was stunned, not knowing what to say.
“You are Mahatma Gandhi’s grandson?”
“That is what I told you. See, now you are talking about Mahatma Gandhi. Now you are not interested in me.”
I was speechless.
Here was one of the grandsons of the renowned Mahatma Gandhi, the father of India, who had led the nonviolent revolution for freedom from the British and sought, though unsuccessfully, to create a sense of harmony and unity between Hindus and Muslims. And Mahatma Gandhi was this young man’s father’s father. His mother’s father was the last governor-general of India, who took the reins of power for India back from the British via Lord Mountbatten in 1947, when India became an independent country. Here I was speaking with—indeed, sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with—a grandson of two of the most influential Indians of all time.
I immediately assured him that I was most definitely interested in him personally, and we continued chatting for some time. Unfortunately, however, it got late. I had to get back to my college. So I thanked Ramchandran Gandhi, and we parted ways. The secretary of the organization who invited me began driving me back to my room. He was a blue-eyed young Englishman. It was raining. I still remember that night, for as he was driving, he broke down crying.
“The moment when you got up and said that you were changing the subject and you were going to speak on your experiences with Jesus, I said to myself that I wished we had not invited you.
“But,” he quickly added, trying to hold back his tears, “that message was for me. I am a Christian. I was backsliding. That message challenged my heart.” He started weeping so hard he had to pull the car to the side of the road. Then he controlled himself, continued driving, and dropped me off at the railway station.
Some time later I received a letter from Oxford.
Will you consider coming and spending three months with us to give more lectures?
That encounter provided a formative lesson for me.
As true disciples of Jesus Christ, we must always be willing to do God’s work in God’s way. We must be willing to go where he sends us and say what he tells us to say. We must always be ready to share our faith—always ready for “divine appointments”—because we never know who is listening.
Here I had wanted to become a great lawyer or journalist to reach the influential elites of India for Jesus. I had argued with the Lord when he said no to my own plans and strategies.
But what happened? The Lord Jesus himself took me thousands of miles away from India, to Bible college in England of all places, on a speaking tour to Oxford, just to meet and share the gospel with the grandson of Gandhi.
Our God is an awesome God.
He works in mysterious ways. The question is, will we let him work that way in our lives? Or will we rebel, thinking we know better?
Some years later, I was passing through Delhi. I picked up the phone and called the home of Dr. Gandhi. His wife answered.
“Is Dr. Gandhi available?” I asked.
“Yes,” she said. “Who is this?”
I explained who I was and said that we once met at Oxford. Suddenly the young man was on the line. “Dr. Gandhi, you may not remember me. My name is Koshy.”
This was thirteen years later. But you know what he said? “Are you the Koshy who came to Oxford and spoke on the subject of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and your personal experience with him?”
“You mean you still remember that?” I asked, amazed.
“How can I ever forget it? Do you have time to have a meal with me?”
The next day he came and picked me up and took me to a restaurant in New Delhi. We had lunch. What he said humbled me. “Jesus Christ is God’s ultimate incarnation. He alone could identify with the sufferings of the masses.” The more we talked, the more amazed I grew, for the grandson of Mahatma Gandhi had become a believer in Jesus Christ.
In time I would obey the Lord’s voice and Brother Bakht Singh’s advice. By God’s grace I was married, became a pastor, became the evangelical chaplain at Syracuse University in upstate New York, planted a church, and launched International Friendship Evangelism, a ministry to international students in the United States and around the world. My passport would be filled with many stamps, but for God’s glory, not my own.
For about eight months every school year at Syracuse University, my wife, Indira, and I, along with our ministry team, build bridges of relationships cross-culturally with students from all over the world. We host “friendship lunches” and other meals for them. We teach them conversational English. We invite them to picnics and other outings to help them make friends. We teach them about the love of Jesus Christ. We invite them to receive Christ as their personal Savior and Lord. And we disciple them one-on-one and in small groups, equipping them to go back to their home countries and reach their families, friends, and countrymen for Christ.
Then, for about three or four months of the year, my colleagues and I travel around the world, responding to requests from former students that we visit them, help them establish new churches, discover and share the joy of biblical worship, and teach them how to disciple others and train up new leaders. It has not been the life I envisioned for myself some four decades ago. No, it has been far more satisfying.
Beautiful story Dorothy. Thanks for sharing that with us. Please know, my comments are not to incite or indict anyone. These are some of my observations about me and those I used to worship with. I’ll admit, I scrutinize things rather closely since considering the untruths being profiteered from many pulpits today. Much of the Christianese sounds good, but down the road peters out when the rubber has worn out on the tire and I’m riding on the wheel. I cannot seem to get away from knowing Eve was misled by what she heard from slick willie, rather than what she had heard directly from the Source. I also realize that these many generations down the road have at best distorted the message, and as Christ told us, we have had the prophets to turn us back to YHWH. Israel turned away to idolatry and that is my point with all this.
When I first gave my life to the search for Christ, I had quite a collection of little buddhas I had bought to give as gifts/souvenirs from a trip to Japan. Now mind you, I did not know squat about being a Christian but after reading about idolatry, I was convinced I would be in error by keeping them and/or even giving them away. I immediately threw them in the trash. By the same token, I listened to my preacher who told me I had to shun my old friends, TV, modern musci (except southern gospel)not drink ANY alcohol, stop this and stop the other in order to show the world how I had changed. Frankly, all of that was bologna (and not beef/kosher either). Many times lied to, burned and bamboozled, I listen for the Voice of reason through the Scriptures. Just part of me speaking here.
Skip my question is why do the prophets din’t announce this explanation? and we’re discussing a LETTER ,remember that letter was made and edited by the pope Damassus using Jeronimus and I agreed with Keith
Skip: A malefactor condemned to death was his own sin offering. (W. H. C. Frend)
Yeshua was condemned to death for blasphemy (we could discuss that separately) and thus considered as a sin offering. In His case he credited His own death to others, but it was considered a legitimate “sin offering”. It also occurred at the third altar of the Temple system outside the gate. What additional information do you have about regulations for “sin offerings”?
Skip, Interesting word study today. Plenty of food for thought. I have long believed that God never says or does anything frivolous. And have I believed that the temple rituals He commanded were symbolic representations of the real thing in Heaven, though I make no pretense of understanding it all.
However I too have trouble with the concept that Christ died twice once in our time and once before the foundation of the earth. Christ is many things simultaneously. He is the Creator, The Rock. The Word, Emanuel, and Melchizedek. The Bread of Life, The King of Kings and God of Gods. He is one with The Father and as such is The Father. He is El, The Husband of Israel, He is The Bridegroom, The Passel Lamb, The First Fruits, The Sin Offering, The High Priest, The Savior, Messiah, Christ, The Babe in a manger, The thundering Law Giver on top of the quaking, smoking, fire belching Jabbel El Laws, He is The Son, He is Our Brother, and our Friend. That’s a lot!
But how is He the Passover Lamb in 33 AD, and the The Lamb slain from before the foundation of the earth?
Is it possible that we frail, finite, carnal human beings who are locked into a prison of linear time are simply powerless to conceive of a God who is not? Is it possible that our concept of now and then is what is skewered? I think that, for God, today, and 33 AD, and before the foundations of Earth are now! And that is just us who don’t get it.
Like your comment on who He is. But the idea of “locked into the prison of linear time” is once again a derivative of Greek thought. Please read God Time and the Limits of Omniscience on all this.
I have not heard of that book but I’ll see if I can get from the library. I did not say that God was confined by time just we people. Our God who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and who tells the end from the beginning appears to defy the conventions of time as we know them. I am enough of a Trekie to find time anomalies palatable, and am enough of a realist to admit that I don’t understand all mysteries, or even many of them.
I agree though that the rituals have a purpose above and beyond the temporal, earth bound ones. It is an admirable ambition to try to explain words that are undeniably in there, noble even, if a bit Greek of you ;). But this proposition of yours that Christ actually fulfilled in full the sin offering in the Heavenly Holy of Holies some three plus thousand years before His Judean death puts you edgewise of another concept (dare I say more important concept as everything God does is important), which is that Christ died once and for all for propitiation of sins.
In “Time” Jesus could not be everywhere, and every when, at the same time. There are a myriad of sacrifices that He could not be. He could not be the Lamb for the family Passover on the evening of the 14th so His instituted the bread and the wine, He was the first born son taken by the death squad at midnight, He died on the daylight portion the Passover day at the time that Temple Passover lamb was being offered thereby fulfilling the requirements of the Passover. He was killed outside of the camp and spent 3 days and nights in the “wilderness” of separation from God fulfilling the requirements of Atonement even if it could not be on the Day of Atonement, etc and so on.
I hope you have more to tell us. It will interesting to see how you reconcile these two diametrically opposed “realities.” I look forward to “The rest of the story.”
Ann, I doubt you will find it at the local library, unless you live in Oxford,
England! “God, Time, and the Limits of Omniscience: A Critical Study of Doctrinal Development” was Skip’s doctrinal dissertation at Oxford University. The good news is that is is available on this website, as are all his books, audios and DVD’s. It can be found at the top of the TW page under the Books and Audio link. It can also be purchased as as an e-book PDF download. A word of warning: Skip’s writing to us in TW is like he is writing to elementary students compared to this work where his primary audience is the deans and dons of Oxford University who will determine if his work is scholarly enough to grant him a D.Phil. behind his name. In other words, it is heavy reading, not what we get here, but I’m confident you are up to the task; me I’m still slogging my way through it 6 months later; head bloodied, but unbowed. But don’t let my experience deter you. I was a high school dropout and the principal Doctor that I read before Skip was Dr. Suess! Shalom, Michael
Michael, Thanks I would love to get Skip’s dissertation, but as a very low income senior that is living on borrowed time in a soon to be foreclosed house, My Dad’s, I am unable to include buying books in my budget. I must soon find other accommodations for my kids (five cats) and myself, with no clue where. Prayers appreciated!
BTW You wrote a TW when Skip left on his trip that sounded like a two parter, did you ever write the rest of it, and I missed it, or are you going to some time in the future?
Skip, is God Time and the Limits of Omniscience one of your Today’s Word?
https://skipmoen.com/products/god-time/
Drat word spell I meant Pascal clicked the wrong line and didn’t proof read.
Ann, Earlier today on another TW post you said: “I have been “isolating” for long since Dad died, (I was his caregiver for ten years) that this was a very real wake up call.”
And in this post you write: “as a very low income senior that is living on borrowed time in a soon to be foreclosed house, My Dad’s, … I must soon find other accommodations for my kids (five cats) and myself, with no clue where. Prayers appreciated!”
I’m sorry you are such dire straits. Certainly our prayers are with you. It is hard enough being a parents caretaker- for 10 years no less-knowing that the job almost always ends in the loss of the one we love so much. Our condolences to you, no matter how long ago it was; it is never long enough, nor far enough away to not cause us grief and pain. Now to add insult to your loss is the soon loss of your Dad’s home. I know from personal experience the psychic pain that whole experience brings, apart from the loss of equity and being forced to find housing in a depressed economy and perhaps in a likewise depressed mood, my heart breaks afresh for you. I don’t mean to sound trite, but YHWH sees and when He promises that He will bring you through he means all of you,(body, soul & spirit) and your 5 cats too! Be comforted, encouraged and strengthened in Him. Let us know what we, as a community, can do for you. If you are willing to share where you live or want to live, maybe someone in this community can offer help or ideas, but we all can lift you up in prayer.
Finally, not sure of which post I wrote that might require a sequel, but I’ll try and go back and look. Shalom and love, Michael and Arnella
Just some thoughts as I read through all these amazing comments.
The one thing that stands out in all this seems to be our desire to reconcile ( in the sense of affiliation) Yeshua’s sacrifice with the constitution of worship as recieved through the levitical system. The only problem with that (bear with me please, I’m not being contrary to the law of God) seems to be the issue of INTENTIONAL sin. (as Skip noted before) As a matter of fact, nowhere in scripture is there a suitable sacrifice available for that. The trouble, is that it has occured right from the very beginning. We know that death is the RESULT, but no reconciliation is ever mentioned. Yet, forgiveness is made available without comment on any number of occasions, ie; David and Bathsheba.
In the constitution given under Moses we know that the office of king and preist are seperated and that those lines of demarcation are not to be violated. If a new (greater/ expanded/ added) covenant is needed to include INTENTIONAL sins, how is that accomplished without “breaking” the law of God already in place. Welcome to the Melchezedic priesthood, not as a “replacement”, but “in addition to” the existing one, as all covenants (biblically) seem to be.
BTW, one of the directions I’m looking to resolve the tension between priest and king and the existing law, without “breaking” that law, is laws concerning marriage. I hope some of you will join me in that and share what you learn with the rest of us.
Anyhoo……if the priesthood “looks” different, and the sin that it covers is “different”, why would it surprise us that the alter is also different, both in form AND function. “I” (personal opinion) would suppose that the “alter” is not just the cross OR the garden, but rather the whole process from the garden to the grave. Here’s something to look at: ONE of the functions of the cross was to impart the burden of the curse. (cursed is the one who is hung on a tree) Who are the cured ones? Psalms 119 under (gimmel, “the burden”, are we surprised!! 🙂 ) vs. 21, “you have rebuked the proud, the CURSED ones who go astray from/wander from your commands.” That would make the cursed ones those who commit intentional sin. Consider that the rulers of both the Jews and the Romans (as representative of their respective peoples) BOTH knew that Yeshua was innocent, and yet murdered him anyway. (intentional sin) How does that sin get forgiven? “He became a curse for us”. No wonder Paul said it was a “stumbling block” to the Jews, it’s totally different from what they had been instructed concerning levitical offerings, and the greeks don’t understand the “eye for eye” principle (justice) of God, hence they deem it “foolish.”
Could it be that we’ve been looking in the wrong direction this whole time? Perhaps, but the promise is that if we seek Him with our whole heart, we’ll find Him. Ps. 73, God is GOOD to Israel.
This is just one aspect of this whole issue that was obvious to me, and there’s obviously much more to discover. I hope that you ALL will continue to share your discoveries with me concerning this avenue of pursuit.
YHWH bless you and keep you…
Mmmmm……
Much to think about, not yet convinced……
“What Yeshua accomplished in heaven finally becomes visible on earth, ” When I read this part, I was reminded of a documentary that I have watched, entitled: The Star of Bethlehem. In the documentary, it is said that the Ram constellation was in the sky at the time of Yeshua’s death on the cross. At the time of His death, the “heart” of the ram was an eclipsed sun! So amazing, this God that we serve!