Just Asking
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28:19 NASB
In the name of – eis to onoma tou says that Greek text of Matthew. Significantly, neither Mark, Luke, John or Acts repeats this command. While the other gospels record versions of the “Great Commission” and the book of Acts provides instances of its application, nowhere does the phrase “in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” occur. Perhaps even more curious is the fact that Matthew, a gospel written specifically with a Jewish audience in mind, uses a phrase that no Jew would have understood at that time. In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity was first mentioned by Tertullian in about 200AD and was not fully established in the Christian Church until the council of Nicaea is 325 AD.
We know that another Trinitarian expression found in 1 John 5:7 in the KJV is really an addition to the text in about 800 AD, first appearing in a treatise written by Priscillian in about 385 AD. Once incorporated into the text, it was treated as a proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. But the truth is that John never wrote it. Is it so difficult to imagine that some translator of Matthew’s Hebrew gospel added this expression to the text, believing that the doctrine of the Trinity established in the mouth of Jesus would provide substantial credibility to the Church’s distinctiveness from Judaism? Is it so difficult to grasp the fact that no Jew in the first century could have embraced the Trinitarian concept of the Christian doctrine formulated more than 300 years later? The difficulty is exacerbated by the very fact that Christian theologians have struggled for thousands of years to provide a rational, logical explanation of the doctrine that God is “three in one.” All analogies ultimately fail since there are no worldly counterparts to the unique idea. In the end, Christian theology is left with something like Tertullian’s comment that the doctrine of the Trinity must be divinely revealed because it cannot be humanly constructed. As Erickson puts it, “It is so absurd from a human standpoint that no one would have invented it. We do not hold the doctrine of the Trinity because it is self-evident or logically cogent. We hold it because God has revealed that this is what he is like.”[1]
If you take Erickson’s words seriously, this is an astounding admission. The bottom line is this: The doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t make any sense. But the affirmation of the Church is that it is correct anyway. Now, if it doesn’t make any sense, how did we come to believe it? Erickson uses the absurdity of the idea to suggest that it must come from God Himself. It is beyond human comprehension, therefore, it must have been divinely revealed. But this is quite odd. We don’t make this claim about any other doctrine. We expect that the Sovereign God who reveals Himself will do so in such a way that we can understand Him and His claims upon us. All of the Tanakh is built on the premise that God speaks in words we understand. Apparently in every case but this one. Why? If the doctrine of the Trinity is “one of the truly distinctive doctrines of Christianity” and “crucial for Christianity”[2] then why is it uniquely “absurd” among Christian beliefs? Furthermore, why is it fundamentally and unalterably opposed to Jewish monotheism, especially since Judaism records and recognizes that the One God manifests Himself in more than one form? Everything about the representation of God in the Tanakh is about His singularity, His oneness. Yet Christianity declares that this same God is not ehad (one) but rather “three in one,” whatever that means.
We won’t solve this problem today. We probably won’t solve this problem ever. But we can ask this question and expect a reasonable answer. “Would those who heard Yeshua issue this command have understood Him if He actually asserted a doctrine of the Trinity?” “Would Yeshua, the orthodox, conservative, Torah-obedient Jewish Messiah, have made such a claim?” Doesn’t it make much more historical sense to suggest that this doctrinal stance was added to the text much later when the reading audience needed to see it in the mouth of the Savior?
Just asking.
Topical Index: Trinity, in the name of, Erickson, Priscillian, Tertullian, Nicaea, Matthew 28:19
Did the divinity of Yeshua then pave the way for this? Since then you have divinity praying to divinity, separate -yet united. (“I and the Father are one”). Since I can’t explain it very well, this isn’t a “make-or-break” issue for me – but I’ve often apologized in prayer for not understanding, and possibly addressing my prayers wrongly.
Just a few years ago, I would have have immediately disassociated myself from this ministry based on today’s topic, but praise YAH, He has open my eyes and your ministry has been an in instrumental part of it. So I would like to thank you, please continue in the good work and continue to Glorify HIS NAME!!! Shalom
Skip,
I don’t think you are “just asking”–there has been a theme of sowing seeds of doubt for the past few weeks. I don’t understand the motivation.
“Would Yeshua, the orthodox, conservative, Torah-obedient Jewish Messiah, have made such a claim?” I don’t know (that’s quite a narrow box you have put Him in), but how about Jesus, the devine God?
What does it matter that the Tanakh did not reveal this relationship? Can’t Jesus as God provide new revelation? After all, He decided to take human form and live with us, which God had not done before. Perhaps, just perhaps, He wanted to explain the kind of relationship God wants to have with us (which the Jewish people apparently did not “get” for centuries) by explaining the relationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
“It is beyond human comprehension, therefore, it must have been divinely revealed. But this is quite odd. We don’t make this claim about any other doctrine.” Really? How about Jesus’s resurrection and return in a new and totally different body? That is certainly beyond my comprehension.
“In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity was first mentioned by Tertullian in about 200AD and was not fully established in the Christian Church until the council of Nicaea is 325 AD” Although Jesus did not use the word “trinity”, the scripture is full of references by Jesus to the Father and to the Holy Spirit and to their relationship. The fact that the human “tool” for explaining and understanding this relationship did not come until later does not invalidate the relationship.
Skip, where are you going? Maybe there was no resurrection because we can’t comprehend it? Maybe Jesus was not God? Maybe Jesus was not the Messiah? God can’t do anything new (He is limited by the Tanakh)?
Some good points here, I’d be interested in the response.
Maybe there was no resurrection because we can’t comprehend it? Maybe Jesus was not God? Maybe Jesus was not the Messiah? God can’t do anything new (He is limited by the Tanakh)?
Hi Paul,
In Matt 5:8, Jesus is teaching the crowds and he says:
Happy are the pure in Heart
they shall see God
And in Mark 16:19, Jesus was taken up to Heaven
at the right hand of God he took his place
So it seems to me that we have two different characters
The Lord Jesus, Son of Man, or Son of God, or the Messiah
And Yahweh, our Father in Heaven who seems very different
Maybe Jesus is like the Sons of God in Heaven
Who attend on Yahweh in Heaven in Job 1:7
Skip,
When you say those words do not appear in “the Greek text” which Greek text are you referring to?
When you say, “The doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t make any sense.” The next question is: doesn’t make sense to whom? And what about the doctrine of the Trinity in particular does not make “sense”? Perhaps Erickson has a poor understanding of the doctrine itself, so his comment is more a reflection of his own understanding rather than a analysis of an “absurd” doctrine. There are certainly other biblical scholars “out there” who can and do “make sense” – a great deal of sense – of the doctrine of the Trinity. Try this, for example:
The One and the Many: Studies in the Philosophy of Order and Ultimacy
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I’ve heard it said that the doctrine of the trinity actually limits our understanding of God. I tend to agree. Scripture shows that God reveals Himself many ways, in a bush, a pillar of fire, the angel of YHWH, and so forth. As with all of scripture (a manifestation of God), either subtracting OR adding to it results in the same thing, a perversion of what is intended. I want to be very careful when it comes to these things.
Thank you Skip for having the courage to address these issues in grace.
The doctrine of the trinity is so fundamental and so confusing as to cause some Christians difficulty in prayer. Who DO you pray to? I have been taught that you pray to the Father, through the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit – so does that really mean that you address the Son or the Father?
Once while speaking with a Mormon friend, they don’t accept the trinity as one, his question was if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, then why did Jesus pray to the Father? Why would He have needed to? I have never been able to find a satisfying answer to that question.
And furthermore, if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, why are they pictured in heaven as three distinct beings in Revelation? Were they one at some point in the past and now are three? Is the past even possible outside of time? Do they exist as three in one dimension but not others? Time and physicality are such human expressions of existence, is this perhaps the conundrum we face in understanding the trinity or is it really a conspiracy foisted on we mere mortals in a grander plot. We, who think we know so much, really know so very little and are willing to believe almost anything to keep from facing that fact.
Skip, I too do not fully understand your train of thought these pass few weeks.
It is good to chew over the word and question things, but today’s word, if only the use of the word “trinity” is your line, fine, but why do you lead that Yeshua never made such a claim, Our Lord spoke in parables, and clearly He also implied throughout His days amongst us that HE WAS NOT ALONE!! I Am one with my father!! I will send a comforter!! Do these not all imply a trinitarian God??
Am i missing something?? If the issue today is a Greek terminology fine, but to say we cannot fathom the Trinity is wrong, I DO get it, as i know in whom i trust and to whom i pray.
Jesus spoke many thing’s that the Jews then could not fathom or accept, thats why they failed to accept Him as the Messiah.
One last point – the Trinity is not crucial to Christianity, its a reality of God, and one that surely can easily be shown through the words of Christ. Upon coming into a relationship with Yeshua, we are led by the Spirit into a relationship with the Father, wow brilliant and clear!
Blessing’s Simon – England
Blessing’s Simon – England
Blessing’s Simon – England
OK everyone, Let’s all BREATH! This is such a touchy subject that has created AMAZINGLY deep divides in the body. I’m not sure it’s to our edification to try to hash it out here but here it is anyway.
I understand the doctrine because I’ve been trained in it. Much of it makes sense to me. However it has a long standing place on my enormous back burner held on a slow simmer waiting for YHVH Himself to show up and either approve or disapprove it. I encourage all to stay calm and examine this ingredient. you don’t need to add it to your stew.
It isn’t difficult to believe that YHVH is much more than we can wrap our human brain around;
De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may DO all the words of this law.
I’m in the camp of the doers of the revealed things. An example would be that I pray to the Father because that’s what Yeshua DID Himself and commanded His talmudim (disciples)to DO as well.
AND He isn’t done revealing Himself to us;
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
This not the little hill I personally choose to die on. I’m already weird enough to my orthodox friends. 🙂
Wonderfully put, Pam!
Bless you Ida.
Our world is in a melt down. It’s time for us to learn from our enemies. We need to set our differences aside and unite in Messiah.
Maybe Matthew did not have the idea of the Trinity in his mind either when he wrote this gospel. Could it be that we are just reading out doctrine onto the text? It is a doctrine that we have developed from these text’s to try and understand (maybe even control) our understanding of an infinite God. One thing is certain from not just this passage, there is God the Father, Yeshua the Son, and the spirit that was sent. The Jews may see God manifesting himself in multiple ways, we try to explain it as the trinity….maybe there is much more than we even understand…So what do I do? I continue to strive towards obedience to what I can understand. Last week Alister Begg wrote an updated version of Spurgeons morning and evening that I find helps…
Obedience or Knowledge?
date September 5
scripture Job 38:16
Some things in nature remain a mystery even to the most intelligent and enterprising investigators. Human knowledge has boundaries beyond which it cannot pass. Universal knowledge is for God alone. If this is true in the things that are seen and temporal, I can be certain that it is even more so in spiritual and eternal matters. Why, then, have I been torturing my brain with speculations about divine sovereignty and human responsibility? These deep and dark truths I am no more able to comprehend than to discover the source from which the ocean draws her watery supplies.
Why am I so curious to know the reason for my Lord’s providences, the motive of His actions, the design of His visitations? Will I ever be able to clasp the sun in my fist or hold the universe in my palm? Yet these are as a drop in a bucket compared with the Lord my God. Do not let me strive to understand the infinite, but spend my strength in love. What I cannot gain by intellect I can possess by affection, and that should be enough for me. I cannot penetrate the heart of the sea, but I can enjoy the healthy breezes that sweep across it, and I can sail over its blue waves with propitious winds.
If I could enter the springs of the sea, the feat would serve no useful purpose either to myself or to others; it would not save the sinking ship or restore the drowned sailor to his weeping wife and children. Neither would my solving deep mysteries avail me a single whit. The simplest act of obedience to Him is better than the profoundest knowledge. My Lord, I leave the infinite to You and ask You to put far from me a love for the tree of knowledge that would keep me from the tree of life.
I guess Skip’s question is if this is an addition by a redactor, to “heighten clarity” of a concept they felt was supported by the rest of the work, as it seems to lessen the emphasis of the idea of ‘oneness’ of God as evidenced in the Scriptures, and the idea that Jesus seems to highlight “I and the Father are one.” Erickson’s idea of absurdity leaves a bad taste in my mouth also. I can’t explain the idea of Trinity adequately to myself or anyone else. The ambiguity of our explanations of this doctrine lead other Abrahamic religions to accuse Christians of being polytheistic. It is a problem for many missionaries. I worship the God of the Scriptures and the New Testament, however Adonai Ehad is manifested.
“If I could enter the springs of the sea, the feat would serve no useful purpose either to myself or to others; it would not save the sinking ship or restore the drowned sailor to his weeping wife and children. Neither would my solving deep mysteries avail me a single whit. The simplest act of obedience to Him is better than the profoundest knowledge. My Lord, I leave the infinite to You and ask You to put far from me a love for the tree of knowledge that would keep me from the tree of life.”
AMEN, Robert.
Skip, we love you… but be careful.
Skip wrote, “We know that another Trinitarian expression found in 1 John 5:7 in the KJV is really an addition to the text in about 800 AD, first appearing in a treatise written by Priscillian in about 385 AD. Once incorporated into the text, it was treated as a proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. But the truth is that John never wrote it.”
What??? Now THIS is the sort of thing that rocks my world. How do you know these things and how, then, can we know that anything we read in English translations (or any translation!) is the TRUE WORD OF GOD?
I find an interesting parallel regarding Skip’s “controversial” offerings of late and the Messiah’s increased “hard” teachings toward the end of his earthly ministry. I’m in no way implying or predicting Skip’s demise or promoting him to messianic status, but I find an interesting spiritual convergence of testiness and time in both teachers. Note in John 6:60 Yeshua received the same reaction that we see some exhibit here: “Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?” …. verse 66 “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.”
Let us pray that none of us depart as a result of any doctrinal disputes disagreement of opinions or the particular elucidating of words, but let us pray for light, understanding, grace and patience; for ourselves and the members of our community. Shalom, Michael
Amen Michael. Well said.
“Perhaps even more curious is the fact that Matthew, a gospel written specifically with a Jewish audience in mind, uses a phrase that no Jew would have understood at that time. In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity was first mentioned by Tertullian in about 200AD and was not fully established in the Christian Church until the council of Nicaea is 325 AD.”
Boyarin’s book, The Jewish Gospels, has been referenced on T.W. previously. I purchased it and have not digested very much yet. Here is a quote from the forward… by Jack Miles.
“The ideas of Trinity and incarnation, or certainly the germs of those ideas, were already present among Jewish believers well before Jesus came on the scene to incarnate in himself, as it were, those theological notions and take up his messianic calling.”(Note: This is a quote of Boyarin from the opening of Chapter 3 and then Miles says this concerning it : “The Trinity a Jewish idea? The incarnation a Jewish idea? Yes, indeed! And if such thoughts as these seem unthinkable, I can only urge: read on.”
I don’t know enough to debate either of these quotes – I was just wondering how Skip made the first statement if he is familiar with Boyarin’s book….. and how these 2 fit together/or not?
BTW, been reading daily for about a year, love the challenge, enjoy all your comments, and glad to be in your ‘community’. Blessings to you!
Your quotation from Boyarin is not Boyarin. It is Miles, who is already committed to a Trinitarian doctrine and who recognizes that Boyarin provides some evidence that one Jewish sect believed in TWO divine figures. Now read the rest of what Boyarin actually says. Boyarin does not conclude that the Trinity is Jewish. He concludes that some Jews of the first century would have been open to Yeshua’s claims of divinity. That is a long way from the Trinity, in spite of Miles.
Who am I? Am I a brother? Yes. Am I a father? Yes. Am I a son? Yes. The “not so great”- three-in-one- “me,myself and I”- we is me.
Now to the doctrine of the trinity, but first to thoroughly examine the Lamb of God, let’s start with just ne, – the Just ONE. Who (he asked) is Jesus? Is He God? He says He is.. He is LORD? He claims to be.. Is He a man, – just like you and I? Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Yes, the son of man.
So, (unbelievers..) We have ONE who is Divine and yet human. Explanations anyone? Yes, there are boo-koodles (an old Indian word) or tons of evidence to use one of my wife’s favorites.. -tons.
No, the word “trinity” is found nowhere in God’s Book so don’t bother looking- even Mr. Google won’t help us here. ~ And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory ~ (1 Timothy 3.16)
And without controversy?? Oy! Preached unto the Gentiles?? Double- oy! There are Christ followers who are not Jewish? I’m even more “taken” with the torn veil.. For “in Christ” (is this the key?) there is nor more Jew or Greek – male or female- we are (more mystery folks) “one” in Christ Jesus!
Now unless I’m blind in one eye and can’t see out of the other and missing part of my frontal lobe The Father, The Son and The Ruach HaKodesh are all listed for our viewing in the scriptures. All three show up or are revealed during the baptism of Jesus, and then there is the statement in Genesis, “let us make man in our image..” – That’s about as far as my limited ken travels..- how is this possible? Easy.. I don’t understand all that I know.. I don’t know how a brown cow eats green grass and gives white milk and yellow butter,- but, “it is so!”. In all of our computer wizardry and technological knowhow, no one knows what goes on in one square inch of soil!
Rather humbling, – isn’t it? Are there evidences of God the Father? enough to convince me. Are there evidences of God the Son? More than two brothers, -I’m sold. And what of God the Ruach? – the ONE mentioned in John 14.26, our blessed Teacher and Re-Minder? The ONE who lives in every single blood-bought believing born-again blessed child of God?
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
~ Looking unto Jesus..~ the perfect unity of two houses,- the human and the Divine.
Paul “Would Yeshua, the orthodox, conservative, Torah-obedient Jewish Messiah, have made such a claim?” I don’t know (that’s quite a narrow box you have put Him in)… Who put Jesus in a Torah box? Easy answer and it wasn’t Skip.
Ian When you say those words do not appear in “the Greek text” which Greek text are you referring to? In the earliest ones, the Trinitarian quotes we are so familiar with aren’t in there. If they weren’t there in the first century where did they come from?
Who do you believe with ALL of your heart and, ALL of your mind and, ALL of your soul and, ALL of your strength? Is it Skip or is it God? If God said it, believe it; if God did not say it by all means don’t believe it. What you cherish does not come into the equation. Believe what is true and chuck the rest no matter how hard that is. Isn’t that the bottom line?
Is it logical that Yeshua, The Word, The Way, and The Truth would spring a new doctrine on the keepers, all be it not too scrupulous keepers, of the Law and Truths that God (Christ Himself) delivered to them, not during His incarnation but 200 hundred years later? After all He did this or that thing so that such and such a prophesy would be fulfilled. And He told the disciples to study the scriptures because “it is they which speak of me.” Didn’t He tell the end from the beginning, announced in advance, as promised, by His prophets? Where is the foundation laid for this amazing new doctrine?
Simon Do these not all imply a trinitarian God?? Do they? The gender specific pronouns were not in the original text. There are very specific passages (can’t remember where just now) where the Father and Jesus are sited but the spirit is not and should have been if in fact there is a trinity, major faux pas. There is certainly a Father God and a God Son, and the power of God. Would you ever consider saying “I flipped the light switch and he lit up the room’? Unless you are German, or a native speaker of another language that assigns gender willy nilly. Samuel Clemens has an amusing article on German pronouns that is good for a chuckle. Excerpt: …Ah the poor Fishwife, it is stuck fast in the Mire; it has dropped its Basket of Fishes… And now a Tomcat has got one of the Fishes and she will surely escape with him… the Fishwife’s brave Mother-dog deserts his Puppies…etc, etc. a good read.
If they weren’t there at the beginning where did they come from? Trinitarianism was ancient at the time of Christ, in many pagan religions. Religions our God calls abominations. We know historically that many pagan practices were adopted by “The Church” over the last couple millennia. So, who’s opinion matters the most, your family, your teacher, or pastor. The theologians of the past, the scientists of today, the politicians that say you can’t pray in school, in court, in public. The atheists, the Imam, public opinion, the neighbors, who decides what is most important in your life? Don’t believe something because someone, some time told you it was true. Or some great one decreed it was this way or that way.
Search the scriptures as the Bereans did, Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 2Ti_2:15 Study to show yourself approved to God,
Don’t take Skips word for it, don’t take mine or anyone else’s either. Believe God! That’s what matters! And if you don’t have all of the answers that’s OK, at least try to not buy any of the lies.
I am woman,wife,mother,grandmother=4 … that makes me more than God?
This is the evidence I have, God speaking: ” Sh’ma Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad” Deut6:4 and Yeshua said: I and the Father are ONE, not 3 John10:3 Nowhere in the Scripture I read God speaking and saying that He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and the word “trinity” is never mentioned in Scripture.
…….they all drank the same drink from the Spirit – for they drank from a Spirit- sent Rock which followed them and that Rock was the Messiah… 1 Cor 10:4 Why should I put limitations on the Oneness of God – how He wants to reveal Himself is only for my benefit: Yahweh Elijah, ELead, ELohay, ELihoenai, EL Elyon, Hosenu, Melek, Olam, Shamayim, Erets, El Deah, El Roi, ELishama, Qodesh, Shaphat, EL Tsaddiq, ELzabad, EL Nose, EL Sabaoth, Nissi,Ishi,Magan, Yahweh Shalom……….
I and the Father are ONE
they all drank the same drink from the Spirit
Hi Luzette,
If I drank from the spirit and filled myself with God’s love
Wouldn’t I be able to say that I was One with the Father?
But that would not mean that I think I am the Father 🙂
The problem is the LANGUAGE, not the reality. There is NO DOUBT that Yeshua claimed to be divine, of the same essence as the Father. There is NO DOUBT that the Spirit is divine. Evidence of these two points can be found in both OT and NT. But the issue is “How is this expressed in Hebrew and how does the Greek expression change the idea?” In Hebrew, God often manifests Himself in other forms, including the form of a human being (see numerous examples in the Tanakh). No one doubts that this is God “manifest in the flesh” and Hebrew accommodates such expressions without compromising the essential unity of God. But the Greek language, especially with its classical philosophical bias, does not contain a unified “person” manifest in different ways. It views “person” as individual, distinct realities. This is the problem. Such a concept is incompatible with the Hebrew idea of unity. And translating the idea from Hebrew to Greek only causes more confusion.
I am not suggesting that the idea of God manifest in three ways is not true. I am suggesting that the Greek language inadequately expresses this essential Hebrew idea. Just like hesed cannot be translated finally into any other language (it is uniquely a Hebrew idea), so perhaps the unity AND diversity of God is finally only capable of being expressed in some Hebraic form. Just awareness of this helps us realize why Jews think Christians worship THREE gods.
Modalism?
“God often manifests Himself in other forms”
“Yeshua claimed to be divine, of the same essence as the Father”
“the Spirit is divine”
“unity AND diversity of God”
Hi Skip,
I agree with the above and don’t have an issue with unity
It seems to me that if Jesus is the Messiah and a Son of God he is a “god”
But why would Jesus teach us to pray to God the Father
If he is God the Father 🙂
And we know from Job that there are other Sons of God in “Heaven”
God tells them what to do
Ha Satan is up there with the Sons of God
He does God’s work too
The idea that Michael was the advocate of the Jews became so prevalent that in spite of the rabbinical prohibition against appealing to angels as intermediaries between God and his people, Michael came to occupy a certain place in the Jewish liturgy. There were two prayers written beseeching him as the prince of mercy to intercede in favor of Israel: one composed by Eliezer ha-Kalir, and the other by Judah ben Samuel he-Hasid. But appeal to Michael seems to have been more common in ancient times. Thus Jeremiah is said to have addressed a prayer to him.[19]
“When a man is in need he must pray directly to God, and neither to Michael nor to Gabriel.”[Wiki]
Hmmm
I’m no expert on angels but it seems to me that Sons of God
And Archangels have similar characteristics
I’m no expert on angels but Michael the Archangel seems to serve in the role
Of intermediary between God and his people the Jews
Much in the same way that Jesus seems to serve in the role
Of intermediary between God and his people the Christians
Both Michael and Jesus also have an adversary in Ha Satan
And both sit at the right Hand of God
In the Heavenly court
I can appreciate all the “misgivings” expressed here. I Was repeatedly “taught” that any teaching not aligning with the trinity is cult and apostasy.
However, now, I consider that once the door to investigation and proving is closed, THIS appears to me to be the suspect teaching. I think we here should be more confident in our Father’s ability to lead us into all truth.
I read this on a church sign yesterday, if you don’t seek, you will not find. One simply cannot live in the NT and know who Christ IS. One cannot live off the exclusivity of teachings from pulpiteers who are concerned with job security. Isn’t that why YHWH destroyed the Temple? The leaders did not represent His character? Just askin’
This might help, – I don’t know.. but here’s what I’ll add to the stew! In His epic confrontation with the Tempter, (who once was Lucifer) Our LORD said three times, the same thing you and I may say today.. “it is written..”. Any particular reason you might think of – why this would be so? What difference does it make to say, “it is written?” – All the difference in the world, for our faith and our fellowship and our future are all based and built upon a Book, the Book God wrote.
Yeshua (Himself) said unto the educated, very ‘religious’ ones- ~ you do err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God ~ We, who are His followers have our instructions, -when you pray say “our Father” and the scriptures also state, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God..” (1 John 3.2) According to what is written, – this is our current “status”- the sons of God! And if Christ, (the son of man) prayed to the Father and we also have been instructed (as brothers in Christ) to say and to pray “our Father”- does this make Christ to be our “elder brother?” -All in the family, isn’t it? Have you heard any talk lately about Christianity being a relationship- not a religion? ~ The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. And since we are His children, we are His heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share His glory, we must also share His suffering ~ – There is a cost to discipleship- a small price to pay for the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8.18)
This is one of many promises we have from God Himself.. ~ and you shall seek Me, and find Me, when you shall search for Me with all your heart ~ (Jeremiah 29.13)
Yeshua (Himself) said unto the educated, very ‘religious’ ones- ~ you do err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God ~ We, who are His followers have our instructions, -when you pray say “our Father” and the scriptures also state, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God..” (1 John 3.2)
Hi Carl,
This was my point above, that Yeshua tells the educated people they are mistaken
They don’t know the power of God
Jesus teaches the other Sons of God, who are His followers
How to pray to the Father (God)
The prayer as it occurs in Matthew 6:9–13 (ESV)
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.”
As I recall, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man and the Son of God many times
I would say that Jesus invites all of us to be Sons of God together
A community of families serving under his leadership as a model and Our Father in Heaven
An interesting little quote that I often come back to when things get complex
and I need time to ponder them.
“While reason is puzzling itself about mystery, faith is turning it to daily bread, feeding on it in her heart.”
Michael, I believe that is one of the most beautiful responses/comments/blogs I’ve ever heard from you and it motivates me and reminds me of the two brothers represented in the story of the Prodigal Father. We seem to focus on the “errant” son, rather than the heart of the Father whose desire it was to see His family reconciled. When (and how) will Christians and Jews be reconciled? I believe ( a Carlism..) this has already happened through the cross of the Chosen ONE, “our” LORD Jesus, for He is our LORD. LORD of the Jew (first and foremost) and LORD of the Gentiles, for He has said, ~ other sheep have I which are not of this fold. Unity through diversity- we need one another, just as the left half of the brain needs the right and the O.T needs the N.T.- our Bible is one Book, the Book God wrote. Again, (always according to scripture- the plumb line of Amos)- “it is written” – One LORD, one faith, one baptism. ~ For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, (His) whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit ~ (1 Corinthians 12.13) “In Christ,” in the Messiah, we (all) are one. One “forever”family,- His.
This is something I have thought about but just recently have had to construct words for a Hindu friend of mine. We share a bond of desire for and the awareness of our Creator. I got a call from another friend who started her conversation with “I know God ids the same and doesn’t change, but, …) I said “He doesn’t change…and yet every time I’ve seen Him He is new, He is wearing something new, new in the since that I had never seen it before. Not new to Him. He has come as a homeless man to me, He has come as the Bridegroom King of the universe and Lover of my soul also. He was waiting for me leaning against a wall chewing on a piece of grass, He looked into my eyes and I knew Him, my encounters with the Father are significantly different than the encounters with the Holy Spirit, or Jesus. The interaction is different and the relationships are different, they are defined by the type of Love each one exchanges. The places He shows me exist where they are, all we are talking about is the ability to remember. Light allows sight and reveals understanding, making the absurd things receivable. When we try to elaborate on a idea such as the original intent or meaning, we must go to the place where that idea was first spoken of or created. Genesis does not record all that was spoken either by God or by others. We agreed to “work out our salvation” before the foundations of the world. Just as when Jesus agreed to “take the cup” He knew what was in it. Our choices have already been made, we chose them all before the foundations of the world. We were in Him, we were and are, and will forever be in Him. Remember when a third of the angels had a choice to follow either Lucifer or not? Everyone has free choice, you just might have “chosen” , or agreed to pertinent things within the covenant agreement that is between you and your heavenly father that you don’t remember, things that are in the dark and have not been revealed in the light of His Face. We whine and complain while our flesh gets torn, so I have said to the Lord, “I give you permission to ignore my whining and turn up the heat, for the prize set before me, I have to see you!! The weapons of our warfare are PEACE.