When?
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:16 NASB
Eternal life – When do you have eternal life? You’ve made a confession of faith. You believe. So when do you get it? Now? Later? After you die? When you go to heaven?
We could spend a few minutes considering what it means to “have” eternal life. Clearly it doesn’t mean to possess it, to own it. Life is a participation relation. It is yours as long as you are participating in it. By the way, it’s exactly the same for less-than-eternal life. You don’t own the life you have. At any minute it could end. You can’t go to the bank and withdraw a bit more to keep going. You participate in whatever life means and when it is gone, it doesn’t exist for you.
We could point out that “believes in” is not a cognitive state of mind. The Greek is enough to show us that this is an active involvement in a way of life, not a creed. It really reads, “whoever believes into,” a statement of your commitment to the way you live, a transition from one world to another world. You believe into the Kingdom. That is the same as saying that you now act according to the expectation of the King, not that you acknowledge that He is a King somewhere, sometime.
But let’s pay attention to the idea of eternal life. I recently read a book by D. Thomas Lancaster. In that book he claimed that in the first century in Judaism there was a great controversy about the possibility of an afterlife. The Sadducees claimed no such thing existed. There was no resurrection after death. The Pharisees claimed otherwise. Lancaster thinks Yeshua resolves this argument once and for all. “God Himself weighed in on the question. He offered his Son, in the person of the man from Nazareth, as the definitive argument to settle the ongoing debate. He sided squarely with the opinion of the Pharisees, proving that their hope was not in vain when he called his Son back from death on the third day after his crucifixion.”[1] Yes, that should do it! Yeshua’s resurrection proves the Sadducees were wrong.
But does it prove the Pharisees were right? Lancaster says that the Pharisees “staunchly defended the existence of the undying soul within man . . .”[2] Do you see what just happened? Suddenly a Platonic dualism, the separation of an eternal soul from a mortal body, just crept into the claim. Lancaster’s view of the Pharisees’ position is Platonic, not Scriptural. It’s quite possible that some of the Pharisees of the first century thought this. After all, Hellenism affected both Sadducees and Pharisees. Plato is just as much at home with one group as the other. But the question is this: Did Yeshua’s resurrection prove that Man is made up of an undying soul and a body? Frankly, I don’t think so. It proves that God can raise a man from the dead. It proves that Yeshua’s claims about the meaning of his resurrection are true. But the rest is philosophical assumption working its way into theological proclamation. It is just as plausible, and in alignment with the Tanakh, that Yeshua died, end of story. God raised him, not by reuniting his once-dead body with his eternal soul, but by reconstituting him as a person, from scratch, so to speak.
Sometimes it’s very difficult to separate ideas that seem to flow so easily together, but that’s the crux of the assignment—to know where the idea came from and how we came to believe it.
So here’s your assignment. You have some concept of eternal life. Where did your idea come from? Who taught it to you? Where did they get that idea? Who told you what the Bible says about all this. And why did you believe them? Think about it. What do you suppose John meant when he used the words zoen aionion?
Topical Index: eternal life, zoe, anionios, resurrection, Lancaster, John 3:16
[1]D. Thomas Lancaster, Elementary Principles, FFOZ, pp. 114-115. Also consider his statement on p. 105, “The Pharisees and the apostles believed that when a righteous person dies, his undying spirit separates from his body. Angles come and usher it to paradise, . . .”
[2]Ibid., p. 114.
Because of the many blatant mistakes, omissions and additions to any and all English translation bibles. I cannot call it “as some do”
“God’s word” especially the red letter editions, just look at the last chapter of Revelation you can see the blatant disregard for the obvious. Skip am I overboard on this take? I believe I can find truth or find Gods ways in this book but I don’t call it Gods word.
You are not overboard. God has used inaccurate translations of the Bible for centuries to bring men and women into relationship with Him. If that were the end of the story, it would all be good. But what is needed now is “Study to show yourself approved,” and that requires investigating those errors and omissions. Now that you have the relationship, be bold and look deeper.
I’ve come to the conclusion that very few have the courage to critically examine things that are comfortable and pleasant, to confront supposedly solid beliefs and practices and discover they are quite flimsy.
Or to discover they are quite solid and know it for yourself.
This amazing and astounding little community takes my breath away on a continuing basis. I am so grateful to all of you, and so grateful that Skip has dedicated his life to listening to the Word for us. Thank you! What a wonderful part of the Body for me!
Skip, Skip, boy is your foot coming down on a sore toe for Christianity, so-called! Opening up the paradigm of the Pharisees seems such a no-no; I mean, I hear their overbearing attitudes and haughty disregard for their fellow man derided, but their inherent Platonism? No way! Except, except, weren’t a fair amount of the Pharisaical class affluent, and wouldn’t at least some of them have sent their sons off to the university at Alexandria, which was the seat of Platonism at the time, to polish off their educations?
Does this mean we are going to end up looking at the ‘sacred’ ‘literal’ illustration of poor Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, which seems pretty much, the way I read it, anyway (what do I know? not much!), platonic to the core?
I really liked FFOZ’s D. Lancaster’s book……. And most of their teaching……. I see the subtle platonic insertion but ….. What do I do with all of the FFOZ resources?!
Pick the fruit that is ripe.
Killin me Smalls! I see what you did there…… Why must you INSIST on me using my brain!? I’ve been enjoying Copernicus, by the way, then you throw wrenches like this into my orchard…..
I am super grateful that I am in your community, Skip.
Realize that they have one foot in torah and one foot in evangelical theology due to both market influences and cognitive dissonance. Personally, I have no respect for any, “name,” or, “ministry,” that deletes questions they cannot answer and comments that are challenging. From a personal point of view, they have lied to me and pressured someone to delete a link to their financial statement in a comment I made on another person’s blog.
What about Eccl. 12:7 where it talks about the dust (body?) returns to the earth and the ruach returns to Elohim. Is this the breath that is called the “neshama” of life in Gen. 2:7? Why is it called the “neshama” in Gen. 2:7 and “ruach” in Eccl. 12:7? Are they different concepts and if so what is the difference? It seems to me reading Eccl. 12:7 that something gets separated when we die. Really appreciate your take on this. Thank you.
SEEING WITH MY OWN EYES
When my Dad died, I saw his spirit rise up
from his body and leave the room.
I wasn’t the only one who witnessed this;
my wife saw it, too.
We’ve been told by several people we respect
that while rare, this has been known to happen.
I mention the truth of this happening without reservation,
and I’ll be interested in hearing what some of you may
offer to “explain” what happened.
John 17:3 “And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah.” If knowing HIM is eternal life, I guess it comes down to “knowing”. In November of 2010 Skip you wrote, “In the prophets, knowing God is not about thinking, comprehending, understanding or inner mystical participation. It is about actions toward other men, in particular, actions toward the poor and the needy,” We know that both the Pharisees and Sadducees and the leaders of Israel oppressed the poor continually. How is it any different today?
What I see happen a lot, as someone directly in ministry with the poor, is that unless we are surrendered to God’s way daily, we can easily become the next oppressor (Pogo the possum).
Dana , I don’t know all that much but this one thing I do know that the breath can not be seen.
I don’t know what you saw but the breath to be manifested had to be of GOD and clothed in order for you to see. IF not, then you may have had a peek into eternity but I would need scripture for this as breath being seen. HELP !
Carol and Clarence, The word study was on November 1, 2010 Jeremiah 22:16 called Divine Knowing. Blessings.
HI Dana I do not have it due to over loss and big time computer loss of MUCH of Skip’s past posting. DO YOU HAVE IT..and if you do ; could you copy and paste it for me under this ????
I just heard a debate on the radio defending ‘Biblical dualism’ as opposed to Platonic dualism. According to them Plato just tweaked and added a little to what we all know intuitively.
It seems that ever shade of color on the spectrum of belief will be represented.
On that same note, I heard another ‘Bible Answer Man’ on the radio compare Hebrew insights to gnosticism. According to their arguments, when someone keeps pointing to some sort of ‘secret knowledge’ from the Hebrew — they are simply the resurrected heresy of gnosticism.
Ah, how wonderful! Now you can decide to be gnostic, Hebrew and Platonic all at once!
Well, on the bright side – it seems like the Hebraic approach to scripture is gaining traction. I don’t exactly know what to call the movement/paradigm – but it seems the ‘Hebrew Roots’ perspective is no longer just a marginal group of weirdos and church castaways. For some Christian apologists, there is an awakening that has reached the threshold of ‘threat’.
Yes, and I am sure you can see why it would be a threat. Too bad. There is so much to learn.
Not the bible, no answer man is an antisemitic hater of Israel, so that is strike one, two and three in my book. We are told that the secret (sod) of the Holy One is for those who fear him. Insights based upon the Hebrew language and culture are not gnostic; they are hidden in plain sight. The wise will understand, but the wicked will not understand.
But the wicked are not simply those with morally corrupt behaviors. Can’t I be wicked if I refuse to see the cultural and linguistic evidence of the text even if I do noble things and live an upright life?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
I wonder if we under estimate the power of the “breath of life”. Every cell in our bodies is active, breathing, and working hard to sustain life. We cannot see this “life”, we see only the results, in the same way we cannot see wind, but we see what it does. Is this the Spirit of God, is it the spirit of man? I cannot define it. All I know is that it comes from God, and when He takes it away, it hurts. Without “life” we are no more.
When my husband died young, I was numbed with anguish. When life departed, he was no longer here. I felt that void of emptiness so keenly, I could almost touch it. I saw no vision of his life departing, I just felt it. What is more real, what you see, or what you feel? Does it even matter? I think God can make things visible that are invisible anytime He chooses.
Lisa, I’m so sorry for your loss. I think you are right in that we can’t “see” life departing, only the result of where life has been. But we do feel very distinctly when the breath of life has departed. Thank you for revealing your insights.
My assignment as requested.
All my ideas about eternal life came from 12 years of Catholic education. They got it from 2,000 years of Church manipulated tradition based on 2,000 more years of Greek and Hebrew tradition.
I believed everything I was taught because my mother and teachers believed it and taught it. And I simply assumed they knew the truth. But when challenged by various Christian sects to actually read the Bible to confirm many of these beliefs I found totally different concepts.
I found that “eternal” seldom, if ever, meant “forever”. The context would not allow it. For example, if “eternal” was the correct translation for the Greek “aion” we would find it was often in the plural, and used in the following ways: eternal, eternals, eternal of the eternals, and even eternals of the eternals.
This is why we get such translated phrases as, “forever and ever” which normally would make no sense as well as being redundant. But we have just nonchalantly accepted such verses without questioning or studying the original Greek.
I believe “aion” is better translated “eon”. (Not much of a stretch.) An eon being a very long, indefinite but finite period of time.
So, what did John mean by “zoen aionion” you ask? Aionion is the adjective form of the noun aion. In English I might use the word eonian. So that translates to life eonian, or life pertaining to a specific eon.
In context, if John is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven or the Millennium Kingdom, then he is not talking about eternal life but only about life during this one thousand year period. After which another eon will commence. Hence the plurality of eons is understandable.
Please correct me if any of this is wrong. I am not a Greek scholar.
But you got that right. Hebrew conceptualization of time is quite different than Greek. Hebrew is about ages. This age, the age to come, etc. And it is definitely long periods of fixed duration. None of this “outside of time” stuff. Your comments help us understand the focus of John and the apostles–the age to come, the Millennial Kingdom.
I wonder if you are talking about something akin to a child’s point of view in relation to the way we view these things. I remember when my older son was little, he asked, “Mommy, can we go to China for lunch?” There is an area about 40 minutes away that is a strip of Oriental restaurants, grocery stores and shops. But in the mind of a four-year-old, this was China.
I had a friend who got so upset at her kids’ whining to go to McDonalds, that she told them, “We are never going to McDonalds again.” She realized she wasn’t going to be able to follow through on this threat, but they didn’t go to McDonalds for three months, which is, “forever,” to a preschooler.
Dan, best I can tell your summation is right on. I am a Universal Reconciliationist and have studied “aion” and “aionios” quiet a bit. They do not mean time without end as “forever” in the English insinuates. some say that the greatest error of the great Bible translator William Tyndale was his decision to use the word “forever” for “aion”.
It has let to millions needlessly worrying that they or their loved ones wound up or would wind up in this endless punishment place we know as Hell. Such an awful misrepresentation of a loving merciful God! When we properly understand “aion’ and “aionios” most of the theological arguments for Hell melt away or should I say get burned up!
Shalom
My thought maybe is, can something that lives actually die? Just like how can something that is dead actually live? It’s like the idea of a caterpillar, when it goes from caterpillar into a pupa then into a butterfly, was it a birth or was it a death? When I take my last breath here on planet earth, was it my ‘death’ or is it actually just a birth ie life? At least that’s how it works bugs, I realize that we’re not the same but I figure there is some lesson to be learned. Am I getting hot or cold?
But there is no indication that eternal life begins are death. It begins when the relationship is established. Why do you think you have to die before you can experience it?
~ and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this? ~
(John 11.26)
So, before beginning this diatribe.. the question I would ask is this: Is “eternal life” a quantity or a quality? (yes, it is a trick question). The answer is “Yes!” – It is.
Think of it.. “what if?” What if we we to live on forever and be bored to tears- is this life?- No thank you.. leave me dead then.
I’ve never been to Heaven, and all I have to go by is what the scriptures say concerning a place called Heaven. Yes, conversely- there is that “other place” as well- and the descriptions of “that” place are enough to cause me not to want to go there!
Yes, we know the stories.. Streets of gold, gates of pearl, foundations of precious stones, etc..- but it that what makes Heaven.. (well..)- Heaven?
I know “exactly” what Heaven is going to be like!! ( I really do!)
Heaven (in one word) is going to be “more.” It is going to be “more gooder” than my (very) fertile imagination! It is going to be “more” than any place ever presented or painted here on earth! Listen again (closely) to this
~ But as it is written, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.” A reward for obedience to commandment #1? Even though the popular song says: “I Can Only Imagine..”- (no man can!) Read it again!
Heaven, and our heavenly home, the place where we will spend our Heavenly honeymoon with our Boaz, the place where the wedding feast of the Lamb will take be, – it will be some kind of party-not one doubt in this man’s very limited mind! Heaven, (the New Jerusalem) is our “final home” for all eternity! But when does “eternal life” begin? Do we die and then “eternity” begins? – Or are we living “right- here and right now” smack dab in the middle of it?
It really doesn’t matter!- This short 100 year life (if we should live so long) is nothing compared to centuries or millenia!- and with God (it has been written), “do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the LORD a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day!
Sir, did (or did not) Christ conquer sin-Satan-death and the grave?
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
I tend to believe that we have access to eternal life, which is God.
Jesus shows us a way to God.
Ha Satan makes the way to God more difficult.