Who Do You Think You Are?
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 1 Corinthians 6:19 ESV
You – What a lot of confusion is caused by the failure to recognize the difference between singular and plural? In this verse, Paul is speaking of the body (singular) of believers (plural), not of the individual (singular). Both the verb “do you not know” and the possessive pronoun “your” are plural. Paul is addressing the whole assembly, not each individual as independent from the assembly. Each case of “you” or “your” in the rest of the verse is also plural. It is simply impossible to suggest that Paul is saying that each individual person is a temple of the holy spirit. What Paul is saying is that the entire assembly of those who gather as followers of the Messiah is a, not the, temple of the Spirit. Obviously, when Paul wrote this the Temple was still in Jerusalem. What Paul means is that each assembly as a whole is a place where the spirit of God engages men and women. This is the same idea he relates to the Corinthians earlier (1 Corinthians 3:16). Why does he make this point if he is not speaking about each one of us? Because the assembly of the Corinthians was acting in ways that diminished the name of God. Because they needed to understand that their behavior portrayed unacceptable images of the God of Israel. Because they, as a whole, needed to address and rectify these things.
For centuries Christian churches have taught the singular application of this verse. Influenced by Hellenism, the Church shifted the Pauline sense of community to the individual. The Church viewed each one of us as if we were individually the temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it follows that we independently must be pure, useful and available regardless of our connection or lack thereof to any other believer. In fact, some authors have gone so far as to say that God’s spirit makes a home in our individual bodies (and therefore we must provide Him with great bodies). But Paul isn’t Greek. He isn’t talking about the individual physical body of you and me. He is talking about the collective assembly, the “body,” that is the community of followers of the Messiah. Claims that God resides in your body based on the passages in Corinthians are incredibly bad exegesis. Claims that God somehow alters your individual physical body so that your body is now the dwelling place of the temple of the holy spirit are ridiculous. Can the fullness of God reside in a human body? Even Trinitarians are not so bold.
Does this mean that the spirit of the Lord is not really present in your individual life? Of course not! In some way, God’s presence is manifest in each of His followers. But not without community. The Shechinah does not descend into your human flesh. It never did—in anyone’s flesh. Who do you think you are? God? Paul’s point is that the assembly is responsible to the One true God. He is the “owner” of the body, and He sets the standard of member behavior. You, as an individual, are certainly not your own either. You have been ransomed. But that does not make you an independent contractor in the Kingdom.
Topical Index: body, temple, 1 Corinthians 6:19
This is going to take a while to digest. I did not expect to be fired from my independent contractor status this morning. Being fired when you don’t have a clue that it is coming is an emotional experience just like I felt when I read this post.
This morning a reader sent me a response from someone outside the community claiming that John 14:17 makes it clear that the Holy Spirit reside in EACH one of us. But it took only about 2 minutes to look at the Greek text and see that the pronouns for “you” in the text are also plural. Now you could argue that Yeshua meant “each one of you” and used the plural “you” as a collective, but then I would ask, “If you were thinking in Hebrew, would your first priority be the individual or the group?” What do you think?
I am sorry to hear about your work situation, John. I hope that this engineering of your circumstances does not derail you in any way. But back to the text, why should it be so surprising that Yeshua thinks like a Hebrew rather than a Greek? Paul’s continual arguments for unity stand on the same foundation. It is NEVER about ME. It’s about US.
I’m sorry for this sideswiping trauma in your life. Ours is more covert; we are self-employed in real estate (simple cabins and land) and we live from month to month never knowing whether financial provisions will be there or not.
I will pray specifically for you today, John, that God’s path will be brightly illuminated so that you don’t feel like you are stumbling around in the dark, wasting energy.
I agree that what Skip’s saying here will take a while to digest. God plucked me from the burning when I was a wee child in an abusive home. He spoke to me often and guided me when all the adults/older siblings would have me do the “worldly” thing. I had no “community” and no Scriptures. Just God and me… and that was enough… until I hit high school and became an orphan. All of a sudden, confusion surrounded me. Everything my cold, judgmental “custodians” and other relatives/adults told me to do didn’t “sit right” with my conscience.
Once I was on my own and found “community” in the church, that’s when the REAL ABUSE started!!!
Once I was on my own and found “community” in the church, that’s when the REAL ABUSE started!!!
I know that feeling! But, you and I know that is NOT the true community YHWH wishes us to be. Shalom to you!
Hi John, don’t feel ‘fired’ from your ‘independent contractor status’! You still have your individual response, even if this is a collective address! 🙂
It is becoming ever clearer to me that love is a phenomenon that happens BETWEEN. If that is the case, the reference points, like us, are just the vectors. We are not the issue. We are not the end result. We are just the connecting points, as it were, for the violin string. It is the string that plays the tune, not us. (Would this make this a String Theory? lol) We just hold it up on either end so that it can. A string that dangles from a single point will make no music. I think Skip is right. The Law is about getting us to line up right so the string has the right tension and direction. IF it is going to play, it has to play from one side to the other. My choices of love give the string two reference points to play between. My participation in the Body gives the string an entire symphony. If I do not feel resonance between my self and the Body, perhaps I am not making the decisions of love and responsibility toward that Body. At that point, who is going to be left out in the cold, with no One in the house (or, would that be, perhaps, playing the string)?
Thank you, Skip, for giving me another shift in the paradigm!
P.S. I still think there is not a good excuse for this vector to not be a good strong point for a String to attach! I must still take good care of my body, mind and soul for they are not mine because they are bought with that Price. Perhaps maybe not a DWELLING, but still perhaps a Launching Pad?
EXCELLENT analogy, Laurita. Toda Raba!
I’ve been taught this, too, and truly experienced something, a change, a feeling, when I surrendered to God, that I have always believed was the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. I know feelings do not change what the text says, but seeing this verse unpacked takes the wind out of my sails a bit. 😉 Where can I order that t-shirt… “Skip Moen ruined my life…”?? 😛
One question… In the previous verses, it sounds as though Paul is talking about the body, as in the singular physical body, when he says the body is not meant for sexual immorality. Are those verses plural as well, or does he shift from speaking about the physical body to suddenly addressing the body, or assembly, of worshippers?
How many rotten apples are required in order to make the whole bushel rotten? Is there not BOTH corporate and individual involvement? YOU, as an individual, participate in the Spirit’s involvement with the corporate body, which, by the way, is treated as a single unit. Your experience of God is not lessened by the fact that God views ALL the apples as ONE bushel. Of course the Spirit of the living God affects you, but are the the BODY all by yourself? Does God endorse Robinson Crusoe believers?
Maybe I never fully understood the church’s doctrine then (or I don’t understand the difference between it and what the text is saying), because I never believed that I alone was *the* body, or *the only* temple. It isn’t far fetched for me to think that the Holy Spirit can reside within us, not just one of us, but ALL who follow God’s ways, and that it is when it begins to reside within you that you are joined to the body (assembly) of believers, and that there is always both individual AND corporate responsibility. But dwelling within us does not mean it is constrained to our physical bodies, either.
The main way that I could see a doctrine like this going terribly awry (and it does) is when people believe that the Spirit whispers different things to each of us. The Spirit may tell me that I need to eat kosher and keep Sabbath, but it tells someone else that they don’t need to bother with that kind of “legalism”. And that somehow we’re both right. This is what I have been told by some and I can’t get my head around it. The Spirit of God will never, CAN NEVER contradict the Word of God. It doesn’t make sense to me that it would tell the left leg of the “body” to move and walk, but whisper to the right leg that it can lay still and do nothing. Am I making sense? And it’s for this reason that it’s hard for me to tell WHO or WHAT the body/assembly is today. Because most of us aren’t a part of the Christian church anymore. The “Messianic” and “Hebrew Roots” movements, as far as I can tell, are no better and no more fruitful, and no less divided than the church. It feels like the “body” is dismembered, the parts are scattered all over. Are we still able to move with purpose and unity, despite being scattered? If the Spirit isn’t involved with me individually unless I’m a part of the body… of what body am I member right now?
I know I’m all over the map here.
Well, for starters you are a part of THIS body, the people all over the world who are trying to think from a Hebrew paradigm. Welcome!
And for that, I am thankful! Even if you are determined to ruin all our lives.
🙂
So this could blow out the idea about a ‘false temple’ being a physical temple. It could honestly just be a body of believers.
Where can I order that t-shirt… “Skip Moen ruined my life…”??
HA! LOVE IT!!!
Ok, I am interested in this one, too. IF the Body is a corporate reference, then the prohibition for sexual immorality, would it also be more in line with the cautions to Israel to not play the harlot with the gods of other nations?
Was Yeshua an exception?
I have thought of it this way: I am a cell in a larger body. Does the blood flow through me? Yes. Does the blood flow through the larger body? Yes. Do I matter? Yes. I have a specific role and function coded into my DNA and if I don’t function, the body is diminished.
So in the context of a temple, I am a brick, if you will. Does the spirit of the temple flow through me? Yes. Does the spirit flow through the entirety of the temple? Yes. Does my brickness matter? Yes. If my place in the wall, floor, ceiling, etc… is unattended or broken the temple is diminished from its eventual design.
No Skip, I don’t think I’m God, but He is my Father and He sent Yeshua and they sent Holy Spirit to guide me and us into all truth. Is HS in me? Yes. Is the HS in the larger body? Yes. Has the Father and the Son made their dwelling in me and us? Yes.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Jesus loves me/us, this I know.
I am certain that could be argued or refined, but my heart needs that today and I’ll leave it there. I was impressed that there are others in that status today as well.
peace
Shalom, your post reminds me that we are Living Stones, all fitly honed, compacted together to form a Temple-where two/three are gathered together, YHWH is in our midst.
HE teaches us BY His Spirit, and by/through YHWH’s Spirit, we are led into all truths, which should transform our natures to reveal His. Isn’t that wonderful?
I have thought of the Spirit of God as flowing. It flows from God, who is the giver of all things, into me, and thru me to others. The Spirit cannot be stopped up, it cannot be contained in my physical body, it continues to move always. It is like love, you cannot hold on to it, it is only love if it continues to move toward others. We are all interconnected, even those who are not believers today. Our Creator God works with unbelievers too. Were we not all in that camp once?
As though we are a conduit, not a holding vessel for the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t belong to us, it is more powerful when used in tandem with other conduits, its purpose is way more dynamic than an individual, but without the individuals there is no way to channel the power.
We are used the way the potter wishes to use us. It doesn’t matter if we think our jobs are important or not, it doesn’t matter if we think we are significant or not. Our job is to live, by loving YHWH and others, He will use us as He wishes. Sometimes we will see it and sometimes we won’t, in the long run it doesn’t matter. As Dori says, keep swimming, keep swimming.
Ouch! Thank you for bursting my individual little bubble.
As disconcerting as this was initially, I stood back and checked out the wider angle. Yes, I need to re-evaluate this particular passage and how I have understood it. I am currently involved with an amazing group of people who are trying to discover the true meaning of community and what it all entails. This is important in the scheme of things if ‘we’ are to be a working body/temple that embodies the Holy Spirit. However, I am also aware that the idea of personal indwelling is clearly delineated in passages such as Acts 6 with the choosing of the servants and Ephesians 5:14-21, which could easily be addressing individuals. I expect Skip will be bringing more on this, as usually happens. John, my heart goes out to you and I am praying for it all to make sense.
Skip this is an ongoing study for me since the early ninety’s. Ezekiel holds the key. In 1:20-21 we find the creature has the spirit in it, lifts it up, makes it stand, takes it away etc……… Then you see the same thing happen to the son of man. Likewise we see the same happen with Yeshua and then his disciples and then to the ensembles. Vs.1:21 says wither so ever the spirit was to go; they went; thither was their spirit to go etc……..
I believe that both conditions are true. The individual has the spirit and and is to follow the spirit, and also the body also has the spirit.
It appears to me that the function may differ but the mission is the same whether we’re considering an individual or a body.
That’s not to diminish the need to understand when the text addressee one or the other.
Great food for thought. Thanks 😀
And how would you interpret all this if “the Spirit” were simply the actions of YHVH among His creation? What if the idea of the PERSON of the Holy Spirit is a construction of the Church, Greek fathers in the 4th century? Then what?
That is actually more in line with what I believe. I was carefully taught the doctrine of the trinity by a well known speaker in the reformed movement before he was well known. He made the doctrine make perfect sense. What caused my pause was that after 7 years of studying the reformed doctrines I found my heart had grown cold and the joy of my salvation was gone. The fruit of the elders was for the most part bitter and I went back to keeping Shabbat and the rest of the feasts openly and unashamedly. The lessons learned have kept us out of the insanity that the Messianic community now suffers from. Crazy teachings no matter who’s they are promote pride and arrogance. They draw us away from relationship with our Father and into disputes and factions. I don’t know how to describe what I believe but I can say with certainty it is nothing like the “DOCTRINE” of the trinity. I see scripture in pictures through word study and prayer combined and they don’t always translate into words very well.
I have been reading the Messianic Aleph Tav Scriptures, and it seems like what you are saying is true.
The actions of YHVH is His Holy Spirit not a third person as the church has taught. I’ve been thinking about
this a lot lately.
What I’ve heard is that any time that you separate God in any fashion it’s idolatry and would be seen as such. Just what I’ve heard.
No one really understands the electro part of our electro-chemical functioning. No one really understands gravity. What holds us together and what keeps us apart is really still mysterious. I wonder if Paul would have thought of all of cyberspace as “a” temple. What if you haven’t “found” anyone like minded in your community? My choice was to join a group whose leader “heard directly from YHVH,” and therefore was not to be questioned, or leave the only group I knew of in my area that kept Sabbath and believed Torah was for today. It was a privilege to be part of the group. She heard from God and they were blessed. I would be cursed if I left. I took my chances. Maybe my curse is that I’m now reading Skip and finding out that I’m not the temple of the Holy Ghost based on I Cor 6:19. Foiled again!
Ah, but blessed, nonetheless.
Thumbs UP; like that very much, clearly and well expressed!
Having been raised Jehovah’s Witness, I was always taught that the Spirit was not a person, but God’s “active force”. (Their words.) There are A LOT of things wrong with the JWs, but on this topic I have always felt that they are correct.
I have heard the Spirit described as the essence of God, the breath of God, the creative force or active power of God… all of those seem more in line with the scriptures to me than the belief that the Spirit is a person.
Hi Alicia, you said that you were raised as a Jehovah’s Witness…. I am finding that some ideas on various issues expressed in this blog sound like what they would claim and what I would previously argue about…. I think I am very confused….
Which ones?
The big ones that I have been struggling with as I have followed Skip’s teaching are : the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the Holy Spirit being an “active force…
He has a series on the trinity. Here is a link to the third page of it. It’s a good place to start and then just work forward up to page 1:
https://skipmoen.com/tag/trinity/page/3/
Essentially to nutshell what you would be reading is Skip exams the trinity and shows how we can read into things, simple enough. Read with an open mind and it’s very interesting. Just know that you won’t find everyone reading and agreeing on everything, there are differencing opinions on different things that are cognitive. So if you are reading something and thinking “Well I’m not sure I agree with this”, know you’re not alone – you don’t have to ‘believe’ something to be part of the community. I would think though that majority of people here would agree though that Torah is for today which is our binding point – which is why this blog is attractive. Must warn, changed my mind on the trinity though.
The deity of Christ is pretty much touched upon in the trinity stuff. A bulk if I remember correctly is going to be on page two. One of the questions that you need to ask yourself is where in the old testament does it say that the Messiah has to be God? Would 1st century believers accept someone claiming to be God? What does it mean to be in God image (Exodus 34:6-7)? What would that look like? How would Yeshua pray to himself? Does Yeshua ever say, ‘Pray to me’? Does Yeshua say that He is God? Can you not be God, but be Messiah and still be divine? Skip goes through this all…not going to spoil the learning journey.
Then with the Holy Spirit, again it’s related to the trinity. The Ruach (breath) is what we call the Holy Spirit. We have been taught to read scripture with a trinity mindset. So we can read into the text that. It’s fine if you believe that at the end of the day, but Skip does a great job showing we have a paradigm when reading into the text.
So I guess I would suggest starting there and working backwards. Have you read the trinity stuff and still stumped or is that the first time seeing the link?
Thank you so much for your guidance, Derek! I read some posts and felt really uncomfortable…. so I decided to wait. But the purification must happen. I will be studying this with God’s help in the coming weeks (months? years?).
Well, the JWs do not believe in the Trinity, or the immortality of the soul, they do not believe in a literal fiery hell… I have not read all of Skip’s teachings on those topics but some of it may align with what the JWs teach.
The problem with the JWs goes much deeper than just their doctrine. There is much more than I’m ready to go into here, but a Google search will bring up a lot of information about them. I lived it for 22 years, and I have seen some of the worst of it in my own life.
As far as their doctrine… even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 😉
I’m hoping that Skip does something about hell if he hasn’t already.
OK, Derek — read your post again. It’s very funny. LOL
I hope Skip knows what I mean LOL
Right, the Ruach is what was breathed in to Adam in the Garden, that brought life. It’s not an aspect of the ‘trinity’. It’s God’s breath. (All from my understanding) Not some shadow man that can run around.
Greetings, everyone!
As a native speaker of Russian, in which the plural form of “you,” similarly to Greek, can be used in the collective and individual sense, While addressing a group of believers, Paul engages each individual, as I would address my students as a class but would expect a personal reaction (and action) from each one of them: “Do you know that you can sign up for one-on-one tutoring sessions at the Writing Center?” This use of the collective “you” seems fine in English as well, and if I ask a group of listeners: “Have you been to India?”, they would know I am not asking them whether they have been to India as a group. So I read the verse (and other similar verses) as addressing both the body of believers and me as an individual (but part of this body).
As for the Spirit dwelling in our bodies, didn’t Christ say, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” (John 14:23)? And also Paul in Romans 8:9, 11: ” But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” “If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.” Isn’t the enclitic pronoun τις (translated as “any man”) used in the singular?
I am really at a loss. I have never heard claims that “God somehow alters your individual physical body so that your body is now the dwelling place of the temple of the holy spirit” but I have always thought that God’s Spirit dwells in every believer who loves Him and asks Him to come? Wouldn’t it be in accordance with Joel 2:28? The book of Acts is filled with accounts of how individual believers received or were filled by the Holy Spirit. Or have we been reading them wrong?
I am a new participant in this blog (and would love to be a member of the community), so do not know much of what you may have discussed already. I may well need to unlearn things, so I would welcome your feedback and guidance! Thank you!
Natalia
PS I introduced myself a couple of posts ago, if you would like to know a little about who I am. 🙂
Hi Natalia:
You asked about the outpouring of the spirit, and whether we’d been reading these Scriptures incorrectly. Try going back and reading those same verses you mention with a very conscious awareness of the Trinity doctrine — do you see how it colors what you read? When we purposely reconsider the “Spirit” as a separate person, versus the “spirit” as an action of God, the same verses read very differently.
We do the same thing when we look back at the OT through the lens of the NT, rather than recognizing that the OT — the Torah — will stand on its own. (I know, this is heresy…) I take the perspective that the NT is essentially commentary on Torah, not unlike the Mishnah. If I find something in the NT, that I don’t see in the OT, it’s probably because I’m reading and perceiving in Greek rather than Hebrew.
Glad to have you aboard. Now jump into the drink with the rest of us. The water is fine. 🙂
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me, Suzanne. I have been reading a lot from this blog and other books by Skip recently and I must say I do not know what to think anymore. Last spring when I was re-reading Acts, the personhood of the Spirit was so crystal clear. Was it the influence of the Trinitatian teaching? As I am re-reading the text now, I can make myself see the active power of God rather than the Person –is it because I am now under the influence of this (new to me) teaching? We, as humans, are so easily primed into thinking/ behaving in particular ways. Repeated cognitive/behavioral patterns can become entrenched. How do we know that our beliefs and paradigms are not a result of this priming/entrenchment?
Also, can you explain about the New Testament being a commentary? Do you mean to say that you do not assign to it the same status as to the Old Testament? Thanks again–and good night!
Remember that the apostolic writings were letters to individuals and churches — they were halakha or haggadah for the congregations of the first century. The men doing the writing would have been appalled to learn that 2000 years later, we hold it on par with the Tanakh. When Paul writes that all scripture is God-breathed, he’s not talking about the apostolic letters. There was only one Scripture at the time of these writings, and that was the Tanakh. So, I guess my answer is “no” — I don’t hold it to be the same as Scripture. Is it important? Yes, but if we read into it what is not in the Tanakh, our understanding is going to be skewed. Our paradigms are part of us, so the most we can do is be aware that they color what we understand, and then set as our purpose to try to see outside of them. Time for me to go — I have a long drive in front of me.
Suzanne – Would you agree that the NT is an inspired commentary, as opposed to the Talmud? Reading into it a non-Torah, or anti-Torah perspective is not the fault of the writers, but of the readers.
Hmm… inspired. Are the NT writings “more” inspired than the Talmud . . . or Abraham Heschel . . . or perhaps, Skip Moen? 🙂 The Talmud tells us what was understood about the application of Scripture, by the people of that day. So does the NT. The oral traditions recorded in the Mishnah were handed down from multiple generations of sages. Does that make them UNinspired compared to the NT? Don’t you think the writers of the NT were well-versed in the sayings of the sages? Wasn’t Yeshua? Maybe, part of our bias is that we’re familiar with the locations of our favorite verses in the NT, so we flip through it quickly to find our favorite proof-texts. Reading the Talmud is starting from scratch for those of us not brought up in it, and it is not for the impatient. But does that make it uninspired?
What do we mean by “inspiration”? I think Heschel was inspired by YHVH; I think Skip writes under the inspiration of YHVH. Why is there the need to set apart the apostolic writings as having a greater or higher inspiration, than that which YHVH breathes today? I happen to think the apostolic writings were inspired, but I’m not sure that supports an implication that they were MORE inspired than writings that went before, or came after. So I have to ask myself, is there some other motivating factor when we insist upon the superiority of inspiration, or progressive revelation of the NT? What do we think we have to prove? And to whom are we trying to prove it?
I wonder if the first century church had had access to Heschel’s “The Sabbath”, whether they might have included that writing in the NT? Oh wait – probably not the NT canon – by the time the canon was established, the Sabbath was already anathema. And, of course, the first century church already knew that Shabbat is an extraordinary, set apart time. So they didn’t NEED Heschel, in their day, to help them remember. But we do. We need the apostolic inspired writings, we need Heschel’s inspired writings, we need Skip’s inspired TW’s, and surprisingly, I think we need the inspired writings in the Talmud, not because there is a hierarchy of inspiration, but because we don’t remember, and these writings help to call us back.
Thank you, Suzanne. Good points. How would you respond to progressive revelation of the truth taught in church? I hope you have arrived safely!
Yes, we did arrive home safely. Thank you. It was an unexpected three hour round trip with four hours of sitting in between, so I capitalized on the time and read all the comments. First time, in a long time, that I’ve been able to do that in one sitting.
So in answer to your question: I think that progressive revelation, in the sense that the OT was incomplete, is self-serving for other questionable doctrines of Christianity. I don’t think God’s character and attributes were not revealed in the OT; I don’t think He changes the way He deals with people; and I don’t think He has a two-fold plan for salvation. But I do think we have forgotten, redefined and done a complete rewrite on what He did say. Artistic license at its worst!
Disclaimer: this is just what I think today; tomorrow will probably be different, as the result of remembering — not progressive revelation. 🙂
Suzanne, there is one criteria that I think I do know for sure, and that is that the Word never contradicts Himself. That is one of the criteria that I know was used to establish the inspiration test for the Canon, and that is still the #1 test I know to use today. And, yes, that would mean that the Gold Standard that we have to use is the Old Testament. There is also one thing I do know about the New Testament. It never contradicts the Old. Just reiterates it.
Suzanne,
I truly appreciate most of your posts on TW, but today I found myself bothered by your suggestion that OT, NT, Talmud, progressive revelation, Heschel and Skip Moen grouped together are all inspired and all weighted somewhat similarly in value. This is a very dangerous tack to take. (I hope that I am understanding the drift of your three posts correctly?!)
I notice that there seem to be quiet a few newbies appearing on TW lately and I do not want them getting the impression you gave me that the New Testament is in value just a commentary on Tanakh similar to the Talmud? Such a thought horrifies me? Are you suggesting that the very words of Messiah are just on a par with the Talmud? WHAT? Have you read the Talmud? I confess that I have not because I have made no time to do so. But in discussions I have had with Nehemiah Gordon and others, I concluded that Talmud is a group of books that most certainly are not Spirit inspired as is the Tanakh. (IF Skip wants to make the value and importance of Talmud a topic – we can all look deeper into it and have further discussion. My personal opinion is many would be horrified to discover some of the “junk” teaching on sexuality and other issues that are found therein. Most importantly, most of us are aware of Messiah’s negative comments about Talmudic traditions. Matthew 15 records His words of condemnation:
“So for the sake of your tradition, you make void the Word of God.” (Matt 15:6)
Elsewhere, He also hammered the Scribes and Pharisees for the “burdens” they put on the people with all their ridiculous Talmudic rules for keeping Shabbat etc.,
It is also interesting to observe that many rabbinical schools give more weight to the Talmud than the Tanakh in their legal and theological decision making. That is outrageous heresy to say the least! As a former Roman Catholic, I find it amazing that the Catholics make the same error – they value church traditions and the writings of Aquinas and Augustine over the Word of God.
I know I do not need to tell you this but I want to point out for emphasis that the NT is much, much more than a commentary on the Tanakh, though, of course, it is enormously valuable as commentary too! The wisdom of Messiah in the Sermon on the Mount, the theology of the NEW Covenant, the theology of Golgotha etc etc. bring a richness and completeness and continuity and magnification to the Tanakh that is precious beyond words.
Suzanne, you write: “no” – I don’t hold it (the New Testament) to be the same as Scripture. Are you really serious or were you tired when you wrote this? (Suzanne, I am giving you a way out of the hole you have dug for yourself here;-)) ) If you are teaching these newbies on TW that the NT is less inspired, non inspired or NOT the Word of God then you are advocating a new belief system that I find heretical. Either these 66 books are all fully inspired or we are all in trouble. Once we open that sluice gate of doubt we find ourselves swimming in a theological cesspool of confusion. (as we find in the world of religion at large)
I live in a Seventh Day Adventist community – they have a college closeby. Over the years, many of their well meaning pastors elevated the writings of Ellen G White to being inspired, even on a level with Scripture. This has caused them many headaches, confusion and needless splits through the years even down to this day. Some are leaving for Messianic communities, I notice which is good news. (I hope!)
As Brad Scott says: “Our God is way smarter than we are” . It is hardly a coincidence that HE tells us in Deuteronomy and at end of Revelation not to add to HIS WORD or tamper with it.
Yes, the writings of Heschel and Moen can be inspiring to many of us but they are commentators on the WORD. They are not THE WORD. I have every reason to believe that the 66 Books of the Bible were sealed a long time ago.
Shalom
Hi John:
Who put together the NT canon? And what was their inspiration for selecting those particular books and tossing others to the side? Were they inspired of God? Were they inspired by political association or pressure?
You wrote, “The wisdom of Messiah in the Sermon on the Mount, the theology of the NEW Covenant, the theology of Golgotha etc etc. bring a richness and completeness and continuity and magnification to the Tanakh that is precious beyond words.”
Then do you think that we can only understand the Tanakh, if we first have the NT? Because that’s my point, there was no NT, and Jews of the first century had no problem with that — they still understood the message. Yeshua’s words and the words of His disciples were not NEW doctrine — He spoke about Torah and referenced many of the sages who are still referenced in the Mishnah. I would not consider every word in the Mishnah to be inspired, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t inspiration within the books. Nor am I saying that the NT is not inspired, but let’s remember that the NT canon was established by men. I think it fair to question whether their inspiration was from God or political expediency — it’s not as if they had unanimity in their selection of these particular books.
Let me repeat: I am NOT suggesting that the NT is not inspired. My issue is with the hierarchy we place on “inspiration,” as if there are different levels of inspiration. I don’t believe that the second century was the end of man speaking and writing under the inspiration of God. We do need to apply TESTS to these “new” words, as did the Bereans. The Bereans didn’t go running to the NT to test what Paul said, they went to the only Scripture they had – the Tanakh . The test is not whether the words line up with the NT, the test is whether they line up with Torah. The NT passes that test exceedingly well, but so do many of the writings that are not in the NT canon, including some of the Mishnah, and some contemporary writings. The test is the same for all of them: do they align with Torah? When we begin to develop a hierarchy for inspiration, we have taken the first step to bypassing the TEST. The test of inspiration is alignment with Torah – it either is in alignment or it isn’t. You ask: am I suggesting that the very words of Messiah are just on par with the Talmud? Yes — because His words WERE the Talmud, He never spoke anything that wasn’t on par with the Talmud. Yeshua understood what, apparently, we do not. There is only one inspired Word, and we are either in alignment with it, or we are not. He was. Everything else is commentary.
One correction – I meant Tanakh in those last few sentences, not Talmud.
Suzanne,
That correction makes a huge difference to our discussion.! You made me stay up late last night trying to bring you to your senses and NOW you “self correct”….hey, just havin’ a little fun! If nothing else perhaps we “inspired’ (notice the pun!) Skip to address the topic of the canon and maybe we helped Natalie a little too in her quest to get up to speed on things. I will make a few more brief comments on the canon in a response to Natalie as she was so nice to me :)) and perhaps we can wait till Skip broaches the topic to continue the discussion if necessary. How both the Tanakh and the NT got canonized is facinating. For those interested, Britannica.com has a nice summary on canon history – its a freebie for new readers.
For Skip – thanks for tip on McDonalds Book, I will order it tomorrow!
Just a little side point to add… Isn’t it true that the Jewish canon wasn’t even yet sealed at the time of Yeshua? There was debate and controversy over several books, I think Ezra and Ecclesiastes (I could be wrong…) and the NT references works that are NOT part of the Biblical canon we have today, such as the Book of Enoch.
It just seems to muddy the waters a bit. We have to ask, does “included in the canon” automatically equal “inspired”, and vice versa?
I agree that the Torah has to be the standard, the benchmark by which we judge any other “inspired” work.
You are right. There were also others. See McDonald on all this.
Yes, in the Mishna, there is commentary that Ecclesiastes and Proverbs were very nearly not included, but they were in the end, because they began and ended with teachings in alignment with Torah. This inclusion was in spite of some perceived contradictions, especially in Proverbs. But the Mishna goes on to record how the sages discussed these perceived contradictions and resolved them. Does that mean they all agreed? No, not all. The beauty of the Mishna is that you get the recording of both agreement and disagreement, but in the end, the only test is whether it aligns with Torah. Doesn’t that illustrate the value of disagreement and how we grow when we discuss, and disagree, and thus force each other to think through what we believe. It doesn’t mean that every word is inspired, and it’s not considered heretical to question or even to disagree. We could learn a lot from this perspective.
In the near future I will write about INSPIRED, SACRED and CANON. They are NOT the same and if we confuse them we are led to all kinds of mis-statements and misunderstanding. An excellent source on all this is Lee McDonald, The Biblical Canon, on my recommended reading list (and if you decide to get it, please order with Amazon Smile and help At God’s Table a bit). 🙂
Thank you for your post, Suzanne, and for your thoughtful response, John. I appreciate your concern about us, the newbies, and your defense of the status of the New Testament. I, too, find the thought that it is just a commentary on the Tankah very bothersome.
How would you then understand the words from Hebrews 1:1-2, 11:13 and 39-40:
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds…”;
“All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance…” and
“… yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.”
And how about Romans (16:25-27): “Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from[f] faith— to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ!”
I will be looking for your comments! Could you possibly join our discussion of this point, Skip?
Thank you!
Hi Natalia –
These verses are not in contradiction, only our interpretation of them in light of the NT canon is in contradiction. Read those verses again, but be aware of how the existence of the NT canon — and the status we place on it as Scripture — colors the interpretation. If you received that letter, and the only Scripture you knew was the Tanakh, how would you then read it?
Good point. The letters came long before the canonization of the New Testament. They are LETTERS, from respected leaders and godly men, to real people with real problems. The Church canonized them hundreds of years later because of their authorship and their use in believing communities. But it is impossible to believe that they were treated as equivalent (or greater) than the Tanakh when they were written. There is only ONE Bible in the first century community. It is the HEBREW Scriptures and everything we read in the NT is predicated on the status of the Tanakh and its teaching.
Yes, Suzanne, I am trying… But I have stumbled. I appreciate all the time you are taking to help me get up and make another baby step forward. 🙂
“JUST commentary”!??? Wait a minute! Isn’t Psalms a commentary on the Torah (the first five books)? Isn’t Proverbs a commentary on the ethical implication of Moses’ revelation? JUST!!! commentary. No, I don’t think so. I think you have confused OUR definition of commentary in Christian circles with the honor, respect and sacred appreciation of “commentary” in the biblical tradition. Aren’t Yeshua’s remarks in Matthew 5 commentary on what others heard or thought they heard? Does that make is “just” commentary? The power of the commentary is found in the spiritual status of the author. Commentary by the Messiah takes top priority!
Skip, it seems you have responded to me…. but your response leaves me even more confused–and somewhat upset. I am sorry for being unable to catch up with you or others in this community in a matter of several months…. You exclaim repeating my words: “Just commentary”!??? Yes, I was offended by the word “commentary” because Yeshua’s words not only “take top priority”–they are bread and life, and calling them “commentary” seemed blasphemous. Also, I don’t understand what you mean when you say that Psalms is a commentary on the Torah or that Proverbs is a commentary on the ethical implication of Moses’ revelation. When you write: “I think you have confused OUR definition of commentary in Christian circles with the honor, respect and sacred appreciation of “commentary” in the biblical tradition.”, you are right. I am just making my first baby steps in the biblical tradition, and I really need strong arms of those who know how to walk and run. You obviously know much, much more, and this is why I am here–to ask questions and to learn from you. So, please, help me understand. Thank you. Shalom.
OK, you can start by becoming familiar with the religious environment of the first century. Try Brad Scott Meet the Rabbis and you will discover that most of the teaching of the Messiah was already in vogue or hinted at. Then consider the commentaries of Mark Nanos who will help you see what issues were really current with the early believers (on my reading list). Remember, rabbinic teaching was always “commentary” on the Torah, and Yeshua’s words are no different, except that his authority does not come from men. David writes songs of praise in response to Moses’ revelation and history. Proverbs borrows from many other cultures and “comments” on the teaching from the perspective of the Hebrew God. WE ARE THE ONES who canonized it all. I don’t mean that was wrong. I just mean that the canon wasn’t fixed until the 4th century CE and that means people were quite used to “comments” by godly men on the original revelation, the Torah of Moses.
There is a lot more on all this, but it is scattered about.
Thank you, Skip. This is exactly what I want to understand now– the religious environment of the first century, but because there is so much published nowadays, I was not sure which sources to trust. Thank you for your suggestion to start with Brad Scott and Mark Nanos (and thank you for reminding me about your reading list!). I feel like I don’t know anything any more–after so many years of devouring books on Christianity by authors from different times and countries… The time has come to examine the roots of the faith. I am very grateful. And very humbled. Thank you, Father.
Natalia,
Thanks for your kind words. I want to personally welcome you to the community too. A friend of mine recently sent me an email reporting that someone with the gift of prophecy has had a vision of God using Russia to do some wonderful things during the coming financial collapse. I will try forwarding it to you in a response over the next few days. wouldn’t it be just like our Father to do such a thing to teach the arrogant western powers some humility.. we shall see! God used ancient Assyria to do His work so why not Russia!
I also want to apologize for butchering your name in my brief response to Suzanne. And I want to thank you
for the Scriptures you pointed out in our discussion on the canonization of the NT. As Skip says he plans to address the topic soon, I will just add a few brief comments to what I said yesterday.
The canonization of the Scriptures is way too important for God to let it to the whims of men to decide what HE wanted us to have as a complete instruction book to learn about Him as our Father and His Plan for his children. Sure it was assembled by men but it had to be done under the inspiration of His Spirit. It’s way too complex to have been just the work of mere mortals. A study of Gematria using computer analysis shows that it is impossible that the Bible is the work of men. If you know nothing about Gematria – google the word and also google the name: Bonnie Gaunt. Then go buy some of her inexpensive paperbacks on Amazon on Gematria and you will be blown away by the evidence of our God’s amazing mathematical mind HE has buried in His WORD.
I appreciate that you recognize the crucial importance of the NT. Sure, it magnifies the Torah like no other portion of the Tanakh as it takes our spirituality to whole new Godly standard in teachings like the Sermon on the Mount and Paul’s letter to Romans.
The NT ushered in a completely new Age with the birth of Messiah and His death at Golgotha on Passover no less and His Resurrection from the dead on feast of Bikkurim – amazing stuff! Then came the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on a large group of people on Pentecost no less. That did not happen at Sinai. That was a game changer that has repercussions in our own personal lives. Without the Spirit of God impregnating our minds, we will not be in the great first resurrection – so said Y’shua to Nicode’mus in John 3:5 as HE taught the rabbi some New Testament stuff!
With God there are no accidents or errors . That the Bible consists of 66 books is no accident either. Six is the number for man. This book is for man that we might have the life that is life indeed!
We could talk about Resurrections , Judgments, Universal Reconciliation, precious prophetic end time info – all and much more found only in the NT
Shalom Natalia
Hi John, Thank you for your personal welcome message–and for so much information it contains! I am surprised to hear about the wonderful role of Russia in the financial crisis–things have been pretty dark and dismal there recently. But God is still in charge! So, we’ll see. 🙂
I have started to learn the Hebrew alphabet and am a little familiar with gematria after listening to a brilliant lecture by Rabbi Mordechai Kraft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od-xkRDw6nk However, when I started exploring further, I stumbled upon many websites steeped in mysticism, Eastern religion, and occultism–scary staff! So I stopped. The hidden things belong to God, and I am afraid to be deceived without serious study or guidance. You know, the word “kabbalah” in Russian means “slavery”. Isn’t it interesting? I would appreciate your recommendations about some books that you think would be useful.
Thanks again–I look forward to learning from you and others!
John walsh, Above post was meant for you, clicked at wrong REPLY.
Hello John: Quite a few years ago now I was working in automobile assembly plant as a quality assurance inspector on the assembly line. I was in frequent contact with many of the workers on the line. One fellow in particular was a Seventh Day Adventist and another was a Jehovah’s Witness. I was a staunch Baptist. We had quite a few interesting discussions nad each one was convinced that our position
To continue (meant to cancel, not post) was the correct one although I felt some of my arguments were very feeble. Since then I have come to realize why my arguments were so wrong. If I were to meet them again my response to their arguments (especially the SDA man) would be so different. Even before I started following Skip I realized their was so much wrong with what we had been taught or had preached at us in church. What I have learned through not only Skip but others like Bill Cloud, Rabbi Robert Gorelick and many others has opened my eyes to many things I didn’t understand.
Many blessings, Don
This is interesting food for thought. I have honestly never considered this before.
I have just stumbled upon this website: http://donteatthefruit.com/2013/05/texas-bible-second-person-plural-chrome-extension/ describing a plugin for a Bible software project that would convert all “You plurals” to “Y’all” or to “you guys,” “yinz,” and “you lot.” It turns out there are at least 4,720 verses (2,698 in the Hebrew Bible and 2,022 in the Greek) with “you” plural translated as English “you.” It makes sense because the Word addresses congregations! But what I still don’t understand is why it would not apply on the individual level. Sorry for my many posts….
Thanks for the share!
Natalia,
I have read your initial post and I agree completely. This is exactly what I was thinking yesterday, but did not have time to respond to. The use of the plural “you” when addressing a group in writing is required, even if the intention is to ask each individual a question. Your example of asking a question to your class of students is the perfect example. The other issue in the letter to the Corinthians is that while Paul is a hebrew thinker, he is also aware of the fact that he is addressing hebrew AND GREEK thinkers.
I do not disagree with Skip’s overall message that we should not read the bible in a way that disregards the original hebrew mindset and intention, and that also disregards the hebrew imperative on communal relationships and communal responses to YHWH.
Where I disagree is that I don’t think that this particular verse in Corinthians is strong support for the overall message. I think that it is merely a grammatical instance where the plural “you” is required to address a group. The context seems to indicate that.
Don’t misunderstand though. I do not hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. YHWH is supreme and complete (echad). Yeshua is the Messiah sent by YHWH. Yeshua is also echad, but not because he is “God” (an english word, not a Torah word). Yeshua is echad because he is entirely obedient to the Word of YHWH. We are told (through Yeshua’s prayer to his Father) that we can also be one (echad) with YHWH and Yeshua, if only our obedience can become as Yeshua (which we are also told that it can, or will be, someday). The “Holy Spirit” is just the spirit (ruach) of YHWH, which we can be obedient to follow, or not. The “Holy Spirit” does not have his own driver’s license.
Welcome. I expect that your perspective as a native Russian thinker will add to all of our learning experience. Prepare to be confused, but to learn a great deal. Skip is a thoughtful, caring and deep thinker. He does a lot of “heavy lifting” for the body of Messiah (at least this little part of it).
Thank you for the welcoming message and a clarification, Jordan. Actually, part of my message about the pronoun vanished mysteriously leaving the thought and the sentence incomplete–it seems too late to go back to it, though. I look forward to learning together and am so glad that I have finally summoned my courage and posted my first message– I hadn’t felt ready to voice my thoughts for a long time because my foundation was falling apart! Anyway, I thank God (should I use His name now that I know I can do it??) for Skip’s work and for the comments of God-loving people throughout the past months that kept me going. Shalom.
I’ve always thought that the, ‘your’ as a singular is a temple of God is hookie-pokie. Never made sense to me. It seemed like a way to misuse scripture to point in doctrine of, don’t drink (Southern Baptist) etc etc. This however makes sense, one of those once you said it light bulb went off. Why wouldn’t he be thinking of collective, he’s a Jew. It’s all about the collective. Individual responsibility yes, but collective he is referring too. The job is not to be the rotten fruit (personal responsibility) and to lift up others, but he’s not talking to me…soaking it all in.
Wow…this is almost too much to absorb this late at night. I really have to say-without meaning to be insulting at all – (really) – in many words great confusion can be birthed. To be clear…(ask my children) I have a great and tender love, respect and admiration for the Hebrew. Wasn’t it God Himself that first called Abraham a Hebrew….or one who crosses over? Crosses over, I am assuming, from other gods to Creator God. So was God Hebrew? No…God is much more than Hebrew….He explodes Hebrew and goes into a vast, dynamic of Creative Love such as we will never completely understand on earth. The Hebrew was only trying to tell us about Him-the Hebrew is using all the words he knows to TRY and describe to us Someone much greater than his understanding….but it is not Him. It is a very good “test strip” to measure our understanding by…but that is all. Is God a Trinity of Persons-hood – three separate Expressions in One Being or three separate Persons? He can work that any way He wants to-He’s God! We don’t really know positively for certain how He will appear when we finally see Him do we…really? NO ONE can truly describe Him with complete accuracy. We need to study and weigh/balance what we do know..but of this I am sure…He is not so petty and self righteous that He will demand I describe everything about Him in a specific way before I’m granted entrance into eternal life. It’s not about that…am I His or am I not? I’m pretty sure our mouths will be held at “dropped open” for at least the first 1,000 years of eternity when we see more Him then we have ever known existed. I don’t really care if He is three separate Expressions in One Being, three separate Persons – or if “Trinity” is a word for the way He expresses Himself in three different ways….it makes no difference to me at all because I cannot even imagine..much less describe ALL that He is. I just want to be sure I am aligned with His destiny for me in all I can be, that I love Him more than anything in the earth, on the earth or over the earth…that mysteriously – His DNA in the created blood of Mary’s son combined with that earthly flesh and became, for me a sacrifice that NO OTHER blood can trump-because there is “life” in the blood-His Life. We can’t compare anything we know for certain on earth to WHO HE IS. I can look at His desire to “create us in His likeness” and know that we have some BASIC, albeit vague similarity to Him. I am one woman…in that woman I am a wife, a mother and a daughter-and each identity demands a different agenda. There is just no way for me to be all three in different places at the same time…but who am I to say God can’t? For me to say God can’t do that…is STUPID! God can do whatever the heck He wants to do!!!! There are times when my children are walking into very difficult or painful events that I have wished with all my heart that I could reach into myself – pull out an invisible part of me and send it along with them to help buffer their experience. I just can’t…..but evidently He does….because not only my own experience but the recorded experiences of many, many others testifies of “a strength” or “an understanding” or a “sudden wall of protection” appeared on their behalf or they may not be alive today. “This is My Son, whom I love and with whom I Am pleased, listen to Him…” the Father’s Voice was heard saying as Jesus stood before the disciples. God is too big for us to nail Him in one of our little boxes. Do any of us think that we could actually construct such a box? Not really…and if we do we are missing out on the most awesome, amazing relationship we can never wrap our brains around. The biggest question of all is – Do you want to know ABOUT Him or do you want to know HIM?
He will never be KNOWN and EXPERIENCED by a plethora of words – Hebrew or Greek….He’s TOO BIG!!!!! With many words there is confusion, followed by frustration and usually ending in doubt and wandering..but it NEVER develops a relationship. Pull the shield away from the heart….let it all “hang out”…tell Him, I want to KNOW YOU! I WANT TO KNOW YOU!! Then hold that before Him…sit alone and tell Him, tell Him driving in the car, tell Him when you wake up and when you go to sleep…it may take days, or months…who knows..we are all different, and the individual needs of our hearts are addressed by Him in the way He knows we will best receive. That’s what a Father does. I can’t describe Him beyond His own description of Love Creating loved…earthly atmosphere cannot contain Him and earthly language cannot describe Him. We must remember, we live on a battlefield. In his first shot at the “loved”, the enemy used words that confused and twisted truth… to “love’s” sorrow-it was a good question..a question that, the “loved” relied on their intellect’s rational rather than a burning love and devotion for the Creator. Man uses the rational of their own intellect to wage this war and all he is doing is firing the enemy’s bullets into hearts to blind them to the Love that is God while we trip and stumble over earthly languages. We really must be careful that we don’t use words the way the enemy did…to question His integrity, reality or authority OR to just stir up every little bit of strife we can. Lucifer’s strategy was”Did God say….?” Now he has succeeded in dividing and conquering the “church” over words AGAIN! “Yes, but does that mean as in the Hebrew…or in the Greek, or in the Trinitarian, or in the Latin…..ad nauseam. A little anger in the heart – as Lucifer had – is all it takes to create a maze of confusion from which we will never escape and most likely take others with us.
Focus on HIM – ask of HIM – love HIM – bug HIM day and night – don’t give Him any rest!!! I WANT TO KNOW YOU – not just know about You. THEN – His Love can embrace us, unite us and form us into an army the enemy cannot deceive, bluff or control. All the differences will melt away into nothing as His loved ones rise up and exude His Reality in the earth – the way He dreamed it from the beginning.
Amen, Marsha. Thank you for this late-night outburst. I needed to be reminded of the need to focus on Him. 🙂
Late night “Hi” Marsha:
I don’t think any of us would disagree that God can do (and be) anything He wants. But that doesn’t resolve the Trinity issue. You asked, “Is God a Trinity of Persons-hood – three separate Expressions in One Being or three separate Persons?” That’s a false dilemma — because both perspectives are just a re-expression of the same Trinity doctrine. I most assuredly agree that we do want our focus to be on Him. But don’t you want to be sure that the HIM, upon whom we focus, is not a pagan version created by the Nicene council to help syncretize the church with 4th century Roman culture? I know it’s scary to question what we’ve been taught and believed all of our Christian lives, I’m right there with you. But for myself, I would rather hold all that I believe up to questioning, rather than failing to question, what might be untrue. Truth will stand up to questions. 🙂
I agree, Suzanne. You know, I have been walking with the Lord (I do not know else to say it!) for so long but for the last several years with much intensity. I took a course from Francis Frangipane Ministries a couple of years ago and was so blessed by his teaching about pursuing Christlikeness. I was seeking greater understanding and took a course in apologetics from the RZIM Academy (led by Ravi Zacharias), which was unexpectedly a disappointment, because it did not bring me closer to the One Whose face I was seeking. I kept asking the Lord to reveal Himself, to teach me, to mold me…. and He brought me to God’s Table. So, here I am. I have been reading and pondering things on my own for the last 6 months. As I said before, I have been both blessed and scared. I have encountered resistance to my new ways of living and thinking (and studying Hebrew!) from my family and Christian friends. But I keep going–I want to know Him. So yes, I would, too, rather “hold all that I believe up to questioning than failing to question what might be untrue.” And in the midst of this asking (and bleeding) I so appreciate the reminder to fix my eyes on Jesus, the founder and perfecter of my faith. Thank you, Suzanne and Marsha, for your encouragement! Good night!
Good Morning Girls – Natalia (a beautiful name) and Suzanne! Apologies for the bloviating…I inherited it from my father. : ) I’ll try to clear things up. My question re: “Trinity/Persons hood…..” was only rhetorical. I don’t have a question there, He has answered it. I left the “Establishment Church” 40 or more years ago. None of my questions were being answered and the only thing I “found” was restriction and more questions…I was starving to death. Knowing there had to be more I knocked on doors that were in the end witchcraft…no Light only darkness. Then I met a couple whose lives seemed electric with Him…whatever it was I wanted it. They were only the beginning. My hunger continued. Like any starving person I followed the scent of “food”..some of it proved only to be a snack…but it was a little more anyway. The key to my search was a True desire to know Him…I wanted Him…I didn’t want to be deceived so I asked for that protection continually…I just wanted Him. My journey took me a lot of places…but He was faithful…I think some of the half truths I learned were part of the journey as well…it gave me a discernment I didn’t have before…now I could recognize the slight twist to the truth and not be deceived. I increased in study of His Word and then watched to see if it proved itself in my life or had I misunderstood? There must be balance in the journey or you only add trouble. Somewhere along the way I learned to recognize His Voice. As I experienced His faithfulness through a spoken word to my heart and the proof of it materialized..my love only grew stronger for Him. I realized that all the Word/Torah that described Who He is was becoming a stronger description of my heart. He was my All – I NEVER wanted to love another god more than Him – or use His Name foolishly – but remember what is important to HIm and practice it – give honor in all I could to my parents-even an abusive father….on and on. I loved learning more because then the “chord” struck in me was harmony to what I’d already learned. There was a “sound” of truth that I could trust to vibrate through me. It is important that our first prerequisite to accepting anything is based on what my truly hungering heart is hearing from Him..He leads us to Himself very well indeed! The problem comes when we follow a “teaching” rather than the Teacher. ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT HERE – PLEASE BE ASSURED! What IF….Skip Moen, being an excellent student of Hebrew first and then a very accomplished communicator also suffered from a broken and bruised heart through which he evaluated everything he saw-bringing into everything he taught, doubts, fears and even anger…the lens of his understanding had become clouded and scratched-bringing others into his prison? We are all that person at some point in our lives so taking the huge step to trust Him must happen at some point or we will be crippled our whole lives. What does God do with all this mess His created has become? Get more stern with these confused, misguided, ignorant people? What can He possibly do – now that Constantine has totally screwed up His Plan for His Ecclesia? He loves…not mushy but true. Psalm 51:17, “The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. O God, you do not despise a broken and sorrowful heart.” Was Luther’s heart instantly broken when he saw God before him…maybe a few seconds before his death…I don’t know..hope so. Would all the men and women who knew nothing other than what they had been taught-but wholeheartedly loved and followed God’s leading into mission fields that eventually took their lives be considered evil for not understanding more in the judgment? I don’t think so. I can sit at my comfortable desk and write a check….they suffered illnesses, deprivations and death because they loved Him enough to die for Him. It’s not so much about the head…..it’s all about the heart. Remember, the enemy used a very reliably sounding word to totally derail creation…he didn’t stop there. He still counts on being able to confuse and convince people with words. Had Eve only thought for a moment…”Wait a minute..God loves us completely, walks with us in the cool of the day and teaches us. I think I’ll stay with the Love I know instead of the word that only sounds true-I’ll ask Him about it later – I don’t want to lose His Love for a question.” Things would be different! Do I love HIm more than life and trust Him without restriction – or do I just want to prove a point and relieve my anger at those who hurt me? It’s my choice. If I do love Him and want Him more than retaliation or any other fleshly thing…then He will lead me to Himself-you can be certain of that. So what do I believe? Is He Three in One – or One or whatever any other possibility is out there? It would be of no help for me to answer – because then you would only be hearing a word that someone somewhere would love to argue with (!)….instead, hear His Heartbeat…ask Him and let Him lead you to Himself. When the last moment of earthly life is complete and people from every imaginable belief system sees Him as He really is….wow, I think a lot of “things” will fall off of them like old worn out coats. I just hope it’s not too late. Have a blessed and Holy Surprising New Year!!
I have enjoyed reading your post, Marsha. Truly, the remnant has always been there. Thank you for sharing your heart. Blessings!
Natalia, I tried responding to your comment addressing Skip above but it won’t let me. I just want to say, PLEASE don’t get discouraged. I have learned SO much in the few months that I have been reading here. It took me many months to feel comfortable commenting because everyone seemed infinitely smarter and more knowledgeable than me. They still do! I’ve come a long way but there’s sooooo much more to learn. Make peace with the fact that you will never learn it all. Enjoy the process and the journey, and realize that relationship woth God is not the same as your ideas about Him and his word. Your ideas about Him will change. Cling to Him and pray and wrestle with Him and refuse to let go, no matter what changes come in your knowledge and understanding. He is with you, and He promises that we will find Him if we seek his face.
Keep reading, keep learning, keep asking questions, and don’t be intimidated by anyone. We are all quirky and we are all coming from different places and thought patterns and we are all wrong about things but we are all here, I think, for the same reason – we are seeking His face and trying to bring our lives into alignment with His truth.
Don’t give up. 🙂
Dear Alicia–I appreciate your encouragement very, very much! I was upset with myself–I thought I started to participate in the discussions too early. Like you, I have been a silent participant since August–and for five months I didn’t even dare to chirp. It was so new, so amazing, so freeing, and yet so scary. TI love your reminder that God is higher than my ideas about Him and his word. They will change. He will not. I hold Him to His promises that we will find Him if we seek his face.
No, I am not intimidated or discouraged. And I will not give up!!! I just feel like I don’t know anything!!!!
I have been leading a small Bible study–and all I can speak about now is to share the little bit of what I have been learning here and what I now perceive differently. Thank you again. Your support means a lot. Blessings!
Welcome to this community, love your sharings here, and your beautiful spirit revealed here. We have much learning and unlearning to do, and we are blessed by Skip’s challenging, eye-opening TWs and the special ministry YHWH has endowed him with, thus gathering us scattered folks from all over.
Shalom, Natalia, you are inspiring :- )
It is very sweet of you, Ester, to welcome me in such a warm and personal way! I love what I am learning/unlearning here despite the pain that the unlearning is causing … but how can it be otherwise? 🙂 Shalom to you, too!
Hi Natalia,
John Walsh here
I hope that this does not go to Ester and waste her time! My apologies Ester if you get this!
Natalia,This is in response to your previous correspondence to me. For whatever reason the system did not allow me to post directly under your correspondence to me. I need to email Skip’s IT guy about it. It seems the reply sign disappears. Maybe Skip’s thought police are watching me!! – that’s a joke, of course!
Here is the address for the prophetic message about Russia that I thought might interest you. Because it is positive in nature I wanted to share it with you as we see Russia start to go through what may be a very difficult period for your people.
http://www.morningstarministries.org/resources/strategic-prophetic-words/2002/strategic-prophetic-word-cis-russia#.VKht8z-cZjs
Russia, China and India are buying up Gold by the tonnes as they are able over the last several years anticipating that sometime down the road, the dollar and the euro and the western babylonish banking system will collapse and then Russia will be in good shape for a while to help many peoples somewhat as Joseph did in ancient Egypt. A caveat: I do not know morningstar ministries and cannot vouch for their prophetic pronouncements! But this one made some sense to me as being plausible.
I agree with what Michael Gorbachev said in 2014 that the western powers blew a wonderful opportunity to have cordial relationship with Russia after collapse of Soviet Union by rushing in and having the countries surrounding Russia’s western front join NATO and then start installing missiles in those countries. That kind of behavior was rude, and arrogant and needless. It pushed Russia back into a “I do not trust the West mode” O well!
Regarding Bonnie Gaunt and Gematria, – you will find nothing Kabbalistic in her work at all – though I confess I have not read every one of her books. I have done a few teachings on some of her work at some Messianic fellowships and got a positive response.
One helpful thing Gematria does if validate the Greek language as being biblical. Some Messianic teachers are anti Greek language. Making negative comments about “Greek thought ” and Greek philosophy which Skip and other teachers do all the time is totally valid and welcome and helpful. But to minimize the New Testament because it is written in Greek is a totally separate issue and it is silly to criticize it as such.
A quick comment about Bonnie Gaunt’s books and I will quit. I checked Amazon and I notice that only a few of her books are listed there but the price is right as some are available as used! So buy one or two on Amazon and if it is what you like you can find the rest listed at; biblestudystorehouse.com You can also buy Bonnie’s DVD’s there. I find the DVD’s are terrific introductory tools for evangelism. – invite some church friends over on Shabbat evening ( Or any night for that matter!) for snacks and a movie and play a few of Bonnie’s DVD’s. People are amazed when they see the name of Messiah plastered all over the planets – authenticating Him as Creator of the universe and killing off atheistic evolution on the spot! As I already told you Gematria also validates BOTH the old and New Testament books as Scripture! By the way, if you want to buy the DVD’s, the best value by far is to get all 9 DVD’s for $100
If you should want to contact me personally with a question or whatever on anything, my email is sjohnwalsh@gmail.com
I do not have a ministry, a mailing list or anything to sell so I do not covet anyone’s email address
I am from Ireland and my wife is from the Netherlands. We have a wonderful zealous Messianic friend from Moldova who speaks Russian fluently. She now lives in the San Francisco Bay area where we live. She is very bright and volunteers her time translating Messianic teachings into Russian. If it is appropriate, maybe we can introduce her to you too and you may become sisters in the Lord!
Shalom
Thank you, Marsha. Your post reminds me of a quote I remember from somewhere that goes “The heart has its reasons which reason cannot know.” You said it true for me.
Thank YOU, Laurita – that is a precious quote. I also enjoyed reading your post from a previous page regarding your ancestry. I too, have ONE GGrandmother of American Indian heritage, but unfortunately, have been unable to find any information about her. Your ancestry sounds as a force to be reckoned with! I’m sure you know – all the strength, determination and “constitution” she was gifted with – now flows through your veins to be used for His Glory. A true Ezer Neged with Chayel in Truth! Blessings over you!
you know…life before Skip Moen was simple…speak in tongues, slay demons, breathe fire…lol. now I’m exhausted all the time trying to keep up with all the learning. You people impress me mightily with all the depth that you share.
LOL — I love that, Sandy! Life was simple…speak in tongues, slay demons, breathe fire! How true it is. But I would never go back to that existence. My walk with YHVH has never been more energized. Yep, Skip, you ruined my life . . . and it was so necessary. Thanks. 🙂
Sorry Suzanne. I sent a part reply to you instead of John.
Speaking of… I’m desperate to understand speaking in tongues and “baptism in the Holy Spirit” as it would have been understood in the Hebraic worldview, as compared to how it is done and treated in charismatic churches today. It seems vastly different than what the first century disciples experienced.
But that’s another topic for another time, I guess. I keep hoping Skip addresses it at some point, because I can’t find much out there about it. It does seem as though many in the Hebrew Roots movement have come from the charismatic churches, so it’s more “normal” to them than it is to me. I’m admittedly a little freaked out by the speaking in tongues I’ve seen. :/
Some day. I actually have a very good student paper on the issue. I’ll see if I can find it.
I would love to read it! I’ve been curious about this for some time.
Hello John: Quite a few years ago now I was working in automobile assembly plant as a quality assurance inspector on the assembly line. I was in frequent contact with many of the workers on the line. One fellow in particular was a Seventh Day Adventist and another was a Jehovah’s Witness. I was a staunch Baptist. We had quite a few interesting discussions nad each one was convinced that our position
Hi Don,
thanks for saying Hi. I am glad that you found Skip and this community. I wonder what your Adventist and JW coworkers would think of you now!
The Baptists are an interesting group. I notice that they even have some seventh day keeping groups in their midst too. Perhaps they marginalize them? Though I do not know a lot about Baptist theology I do appreciate their conservative take on some of the issues that make the news. But as an Irishman, I do enjoy a pint of Guinness every now and then so the Baptists would probably call me a sinner! :))
About the Adventists – I have never been Adventist but I have some good friends among them. Also my wife works at one of their hospitals. I have had some good discussions with a few of their pastors. Several of their members seem to be searching as they are being provoked by the Spirit (I suspect). Many are bothered by such things as the Christmas trees they now put up every December! Many are also bothered also by the prominence they give Ellen G White. On the positive side, some people including pastors are keeping the Feasts. Here in California, they now have a Festival site in the Bakersfield area that pulls, I am told, around 300 people! But then, I am told by one member that the Feast keepers will probably eventually be asked to leave their main body. Sad to day that’s the way it usually ends up. But Messianic communities can benefit from the fallout if they are on the ball. I am aware of several who have already visited Messianic groups to check things out!
Please, if you don’t mind, tell me how you got to know about Skip and Today’s Word?
Shalom
Hello again John. I have just read your response to my comment and realized that my comment was incomplete because I posted it accidentally before I had finished it. I had meant to include that if I were to meet those fellow workers again my response to their arguments would be a lot different now, particularly to the S.D.A fellow. How our attitudes change as we become more aware of the real truth of the Word.
Blessings, Don.
Who is the final arbitrator of what is or what is not inspired?
I find it both disconcerting and amazing that a group of men (no women-RED FLAG) who had, for the most part, left behind the Torah, the commandments, the ancient traditions and the teachings of men whose wisdom and love of YHWH was evident both to the community and the nations would be trusted by Yah to the lofty task of deciding which books to include (and more to exclude) in what became know as the NT. Yet even with their antisemitic worldview they appear to have gotten it “right” (if you agree with the traditional church view). Of course, their job was made easier by the fact that their contemporary “community” itself had already “voted” by their long time use or rejection of certain letters. But these are the same people who drank the Hellenistic flavored ‘kool aid’ and rejected Torah as Yah’s standard and elected their own leaders to codify their antisemitic worldview.
When I was younger I thought that many (not all) of the words of Watchman Nee were at least as “inspired” as those I found in the NT. Like the words of Yeshua, Paul, John, et all which gave me life and hope so did those words penned by a Chinese man 1900 years later. Yes, while my experience was very subjective it nonetheless had its effect on me and my walk. I would later experience the same awe with Skip’s writings. I am amazed at many (again, not all) of the words that pour forth from Skip’s quill. They too take on a heaviness (kavod) that go way beyond inspiring. If I (or you) needed a ‘proof text’ for such a belief try on John 6:63 KJV: “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” So for me, if the words I hear or read are “spirit and life” and they quicken me to action, minister life unto me and to the members of Yah’s community, then they are inspired by Elohim. Of course, we do see through a glass darkly and I fully expect to cast off more Greek togas in the future, but for now I soak in that which gives me life.
Finally, a hearty welcome to Natalia- you WILL find life here. Be patient with us as we slough through the slew and sometimes slug it out. If the women on Todays Word (my ezer included) who contribute the majority of the comments on this blog and in particular those women commenting on this discussion thread, were alive in the 4th century no doubt the Cannon and whole of church history would have been radically different ( on second thought… they more than likely would have been stoned or at least quickly quieted). Without doubt we men all benefit from your words of wisdom and truth. I am blessed, honored and thankful to be part of this community. Shabbat Shalom. Michael
Shabbat Shalom, Michael! I thank YHVH for His mercy and grace, for His Word, and for His people. Thank you for addressing me in your comment: I feel so blessed to be here. Do you know that “thank you” in Russian, “spasibo” (спасибо) comes from two words: “spasi” –an imperative form of the verb “spasat’/spasti” (спасать/спасти) which means “to save; to rescue” and “Bog” (Бог), in which the last consonant “g” was pronounced like a light “h” and disappeared over time–and this word means “God”. Each time someone says “thank you,” the person is actually saying, “God save you” even though they may not be aware of it! The Russian “thank you” captures what I feel: a heartfelt gratitude, a deep appreciation for God’s saving grace, and a desire to pass on His blessing. 🙂
Given that it seems I’m ever the contrarian here, I’ll begin with where I agree. And, it’s more than just one point! Since I’ve been working on a writing project encompassing these very passages, I’m familiar with the plural pronouns, and I agree that 1 Corinthians 3:16 is addressing the body corporately and that one person causing division effects the whole body. Moreover, in my article in the works, I have in a footnote:
In addition, I concur that the Church’s focus on the individual at the expense of the whole is off-base.
Yet, I agree with Natalie’s initial comments regarding the plural “you” at January 6, 2015 6:13 pm, which partially disagrees with the assertion in the TW. Moreover, while 3:16 is addressed corporately, 6:19 is clearly addressed to individuals, as Gordon Fee notes in his NICNT (p 264): “In referring to the body as the temple of the Spirit, Paul has taken imagery that properly belongs to the church as a whole (cf. 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:21-22) and applied it the individual believer” (6:18,sins against his own body). Also, in the article I’m working on, with respect to 3:16, I add the following, “each reader or hearer would undoubtedly understand his/her individual role as part of the Corinthian congregation (cf. 2 Cor. 6:16).” It’s both/and, as my earlier words “the one person causing division” implies this.
In the TW it is asked rhetorically: Can the fullness of God reside in a human body? Paul answers that in the affirmative in Colossians 1:19, 2:9 – no matter how one wishes to exegete these verses. In answer to that rhetorical question in the TW is this: Even Trinitarians are not so bold. Actually, we are. And, for me, not just in the Colossians verses, but in those above that speak of the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit – no one gets a partial indwelling. By its very definition, omnipresence is not parceled up. If one disagrees regarding the indwelling, I ask what we are to make of demon possession and exorcism (see, e.g., Mark 5:1-17; 12:26-29,43-45; Luke 11:14-26). Isn’t this analogous (see esp. Luke 11:24-26; Matt 12:43-46)?
I cannot believe I misspelled Natalia’s name, the same name of the adorable 7 year old who lives next door, and who proceeded to spell it for me when I asked her name. (Afterwards, she boasted how she had just turned 6, showing me all 5 digits of one hand and the forefinger of the other. :))