Beating a Dead Horse

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 NASB

The Word – There is an amazing little fact about the gospel writers that is often overlooked. It is simply this:

The New Testament provides little information on Jesus’ family. Outside of the nativity stories, the Gospels hardly mention Jesus’ family. Christians historically have struggled with the reality of the incarnation—God became man. While they have had little problem looking at Jesus as divine, the struggle comes in viewing Jesus as man—the principal point of the incarnation. His family, however, ties Jesus to history, joins Him to humanity, and connects Him with the Jewish people. His family makes the incarnation real, and like any other person in human history, His family shaped who He became as a man.[1]

Now let’s read Turnage’s remark from the perspective of Jewish writers in the first century. Jews don’t have any problem at all with Yeshua as a man. How could they? He is just like every other man, born to this world, growing up in a Jewish household, speaking the languages of Israel in the first century, following an orthodox faith, participating in customary rites and rituals, living among his native people. Is there anything controversial about this? No. But notice what is disconcerting to Jewish readers of the story of Yeshua—the claim that he is God, precisely what Christians apparently don’t have any problem accepting.[2] This is quite odd. Christians seem ready to accept Yeshua as unlike any other man ever born, but struggle to imagine that he really is like every other man. Jews have no problem thinking of Yeshua like every other man, but balk at the idea that he is different than every man ever born. In fact, Jews would argue that Turnage’s statement, “His family makes the incarnation real, and like any other person in human history . . .,” is nonsense. By Christian definition, he is not like “any other person in human history.” That is why Christians struggle with the incarnation. Whatever the incarnation is, it excludes Yeshua from being like anyone else. It does not include him in the history of every other person. It can’t! If it did, he couldn’t be God.

Do you find it rather odd (perhaps distressing) that Christians assert what is patently nonsense from the human perspective while Jews assert what is nonsense from a divine perspective? How did this genuinely perplexing state of affairs come to be? Just for a moment, put aside your presuppositions about the incarnation and read Turnage’s statement again. Does it make any sense to you if you don’t assume the doctrine of the incarnation is true? And if you have to assume that the incarnation is true in order to claim what Turnage says, then where did the idea come from? It certainly did not come from the absolutely ubiquitous experience of human beings. If Turnage has to employ vocabulary about “Jesus” humanity that has no equivalent in any human experience, then what in the world do his words really mean? Isn’t it something equivalent to saying that it’s raining, but meaning that I’m standing in the Sahara desert sunshine?

Just one last thought before we stop beating the dead horse. If you were a rational human being, unfettered by the cultural history of Western Christianity, what position would make more sense to you: that Yeshua is a man or that he is God? Is it any wonder why Millard Erickson suggests that we believe this Christian idea because it doesn’t make sense and therefore must be from God? What kind of a God would play that colossal re-definition trick on human beings? OK. Enough. Let’s go back to thinking about things that actually have meaning in the human world, like what to eat for dinner.

Topical Index: incarnation, Word, Marc Turnage, John 1:1

A theological notice: Some time ago I was advised to avoid the topic of the Trinity. “Stay below the radar,” was the instruction. But, as things progressed, I found it impossible not to investigate the origin and language of this doctrine. The discussion has been lively, and worthwhile, I trust. But I have concluded that the real analysis of this doctrine must occur at the meta-theological level, that is, this is about paradigms, not exegesis. So the analysis must involve the culture, perspective and context of the authors, not the exegetes and certainly not the Church since it was not yet formed when men wrote the words of Scripture. At this point, I think we have articulated these real concerns. Continued exegetical analysis is really rather pointless if we are not willing to ask, “What did these men think within their own context?” So, now perhaps it’s time to duck below the radar. Thanks for letting me poke my head up over these last few years.

[1] Marc Turnage, Windows into the Bible, p. 211.

[2] While common understanding of the divinity of “Jesus” is mainstream Christianity, that does not mean there have been no discenters throughout the history of Christianity. If you want to know the full argument about this doctrine, it might be instructive to read the writings of these theologians from the earliest fathers until today.

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Dan Kraemer

In a necessarily long post above (with citations, Oct 13) I laid out a solution but let me simplify it.

The solution is possible but it requires one to accept the paradigm that the text of SCRIPTURE MEANS WHAT IT SAYS (in its original languages and at that time.) But this must be held CONSISTENTLY.

1. The word “God” does not always apply to the One Supreme Being. It is applied to Satan, Moses, demons and others. Just because it is applied to Yeshua does not necessarily mean He is, or is a part of, the One Supreme Being.

2. God, (the One Supreme Being), is invisible and inaudible. One must accept that or reject the paradigm. Therefore, Yeshua, the Word, the Alpha and Omega and even YHVH, the “God” of Adam, Abraham and Moses, cannot be this One Supreme Being. Only the Father is pure Spirit, pervading the entire universe, and forever invisible. (He is “seen” only in visions (which are not real). Accept that or break Scripture.

3. That is why we must have a visible Image of the Father as seen in His Son and Who is His exact representative in everything except that the Son is His Son. (The Father’s creation.)

4. The Son, by definition, is post temporal and secondary to the Father. Why would They give us such a contradictory title for our understanding if They are both co-equal? It is obvious that the Son is submissive in absolutely everything He does. He even submits His will, which is pointedly different, to that of the Father.

5. But the Son/Word/YHVH is the channel through which all, even time, was created. He, not the Father, is the Alpha and Omega. But the invisible Father is the Source of all His abilities.

6. Yeshua is our Mediator. As such, by definition, He cannot be the Supreme God, but neither is He simply a man. He is the Word, He bridges the chasm between us. “There is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus.” 1Tim 2:5

Seeker

Dan, may I add
Matt 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him…
So no matter how we try and explain or describe the Son it is evident that only God will do this as he pleases…
Then there is another record that says something like. Jesus came to declare / reveal / proclaim the Father and another that states he came to bring divide between father and son…
There must be a reason why these records have been recorded…

Mark Parry

After reading CAREFULLY most, but not all comments , I can only conclude this horse, while yet very much beaten, is clearly not yet dead. I can only now add as my comment a thought of my dear departed but clearly not dead friend G.K. Chesterton “Mearly having an open mind is nothing, the object of opening the mind as opening the mouth, is to shut it agin on something solid.” I come to this venue as also suggested by Chesterton not to ask questions, for enough questions have been asked, but because herein are revealed answers. I am not sure I wish to question yet the deity of my Messiah. But I respect the grace, candor and thoughtfull considerations of all who have shared. I will admit I no longer question the Trinity but shut my teeth firmly on the Shema. This I find still a chalenge to reconcile with my love of unity of the spirit required of brethren. But their in lies the mystery of faith in the one true Elohim.

Mark Parry

Skip would you kindly illuminate the subject of the “deity ” of the Messiah from your paradigm?