Planned in Advance
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them. Psalm 139:16 NASB
Ordained for me – This verse is often used as a proof text for the idea that God has foreordained the days of our lives, in fact, every day of the cosmos. In theological terms, such a doctrine implies a strong view of omniscience and predestination. That is to say, if this verse really proves that God has ordained every day from the beginning, and God is infallibly correct in His knowledge of each and every one of these days, then it follows (logically) that no day ever occurs which has not already been conceived and orchestrated by God.[1] As you can readily see, such a view, in spite of its antiquity in Christian thought, violates our usual perception of free will and moral choice. A great deal of theological gymnastics, worthy of Olympic gold, has gone in to reconciling this idea with the ubiquitous experience of human choice, but that is not the subject of this short reflection.[2]
What I want to do is explore the use of this verse to justify the further claim that the day of Yeshua’s crucifixion was destined from before the formation of the world in such a way that it was impossible for it to have occurred on any other day except that day in the first century and in any other way except in precisely the way it occurred. The argument goes something like this: God planned every day as it actually occurs before the formation of the world. Therefore, God planned the death of Yeshua on the cross from before creation. Because God planned it, He foreordained that it would occur as it did. God’s foreordination entails that whatever God plans will in fact be the case. Therefore, Yeshua’s death on the cross had to occur exactly as it was planned. And this entails that Yeshua had no choice in this matter since God foreordained it to occur.
I hope you can appreciate the corollary. If Yeshua’s death on the cross were the logical result of God’s foreordination, then it follows that it was not possible for Yeshua to choose any other path and, logically, all those verses that suggest that this was a choice Yeshua made are in fact delusions on his behalf and fabrications on our behalf. In truth, He had no choice and neither do we.
Clearly something is amiss. Either the entire human race has been under a spellbinding false impression that we actually choose what we do or this idea of predestination is somehow flawed. I believe that the latter is the case. But what I want to point out here is that the use of Psalm 139:16 as a proof text for the inevitability of the cross isn’t quite so comforting. Not only does reading the verse in this way open up a can of worms so big that we could catch whales, it also has no impact whatsoever on the theological meaning of the cross event. The verse offers only a poetic reflection on the author’s view of God’s sovereignty. It says nothing about the cross, and, I would argue, says nothing about the larger idea of foreordination. It just isn’t clear that this poet expresses an eternal truth about God’s sovereign control over every day. It is clear that the poet at this moment feels that his life is completely under God’s control, but it is a long step from this poetic feeling to a doctrine that puts the responsibility of every action in God’s lap instead of ours. In fact, a bit more reading of the same poet would show that he is completely comfortable with the opposing idea that he is responsible for his own choices and that his choices are real!
One further note. It’s interesting that the NASB adds the prepositional phrase “for me” in “the days that were ordained for me.” The Hebrew text reads only yamim yutstsaru, “the days that were formed.” The verse uses the same verb found in the creation account, yatsar, “to form, to fashion.” The addition of the prepositional phrase shifts the focus from God’s general creative activity to the specific days of this individual. The text doesn’t say that, even if it might imply it.
What have we learned from this little adventure? Perhaps Walter Kaiser’s comment suffices: “the facile linking of assorted Biblical texts because of what appears on a prima facie reading to be similar wording or subject matter (usually called the proof-text method) must be resisted since it fails to establish that all of the texts being grouped together do indeed share the same theological or factual content.”[3] We might also add that you better be prepared to live with the theology if you want to use a verse to prove your point.
Topical Index: foreordained, yatsar, sovereignty, free will, cross, Psalm 139:16
[1] Objectors often wish to separate the idea of God’s knowledge from the execution of that knowledge (cf. Augustine), but the nature of God prevents such a separation even if we humans see the separation in our lives. God’s infallible knowing entails the actual execution of what He knows. Human beings don’t have this connection because they are not infallible.
[2] If you really want to follow the complete articulation of this idea and my critique of its failure both logically and biblically, then order my book, God, Time and the Limits of Omniscience.
[3] Walter Kaiser, Toward an Exegetical Theology, 1981, p. 134
So what about the teaching I have believed that nothing touches my life without it first going through the hands of the Father? I almost find this very disturbing. In fact it sorta blows everything out of the water as far as what I have read and understood in Isaiah, and Jeremiah, those things that have been linked with prophecy and those things that have brought me some sort of anchor. wow looks like I need to get your book and study some more.
Most interesting!
I have long been confused and twisted about when trying to make heads or tails of this predestination theory and human free will.
Where I arrived was that Y-H did not create robots who operate on some pre-written program. He created intellect (brains) in us that we would use them. What would be the point to writing down Torah and giving such instruction if we were already pre-programmed to a certain end?
I figured that the glory for Y-H came in our choosing to serve Him and keep His commands.
Even Y-H changes His mind a few times thru scripture–Moses saw this first hand.
I personally get really annoyed at this proof-texting method. It seems to me that proof-texting ignores the context of selected verses simply to make a point or to affirm some notion that someone really wants to substantiate. I would heartily agree with Mr Kaiser in that this method should be resisted!
This however, does NOT change the fact that there is nothing unknown to the Father. There have been very recent posts written regarding this. What changes is our choosing to praise Him and trust Him no matter the circumstances. Choices DO matter and there are only two masters to serve. Choose life or choose death, straight from the Torah to Y-H’s people.
I see death as being very much the enemy and we humans fight against it every chance we get. It is everywhere in this current culture and honestly, youth and vitality have been celebrated since history has been written. Old age and wisdom have gone by the by. That is really sad as scripture celebrates the wisdom that can be found in mature folks.
So much effort is put into fighting death that celebrating life is forgotten.
Personally that predestination theory seems pretty lifeless to me. Why bother if this is what one believes in?
I don’t know about you but I like celebrations; particularly of life. 🙂
Don’t you find that predestination can be an excuse to live a life sloppily? Blame it on God if things don’t go your way, after all He made you and predestined all of your days.
What if God, in His infinite wisdom, created man, knowing that things would unfold in the manner that they do unfold (though not causing them to unfold that way), knowing all of the choices each man would make and the consequences that would follow from those actions/choices. Prophecy would unfold as declared, yet each is totally free to make the decisions each makes from day to day and perfectly and solely responsible for those decision/choices.
Inhale, Exhale
Ahh.. the free will of man AND the Sovereignty of God! The Answer? YESSSS! (Hallelujah!- yes!).
We (each of us) are totally free in all “choices” we will make today. Go ahead, make the mighty decision, “what cereal shall I have for breakfast today!” This may be a (seemingly) small decision, but every choice we make, (every choice!- paper or plastic?) is followed by a consequence! Good choices- good consequences ( I shouldn’t have stayed up so late last night!)- good consequences. This is the (God-given) free will of man. We may “choose” whether or not, to love or to hate. (Don’t be a “hater!”).
Why do we do what we do? What motivates our behavior? What “will” I do today? I have “decided” (my own choosing) to rob a bank! Carl, -don’t do this! Why not? Because the Law of the LORD says: “do not steal!” Oh.. okay. I “will not” then, rob a bank. (I was so hoping for some “easy money!”) I should have been a politician where thievery is now been “legalized!”).
Love (itself) is a choice. We (willingly, freely) choose to love God AND (willingly-freely) choose to love each other. Love is a choice. We (none of us-Jew or Gentile) are robotic machines. We are (all) human creatures and even the words of our Sovereign LORD Jesus may be spoken again by us, “not my will (what I want) but Yours be done!”
What “motivated” the MESSIAH to bear the burden of Calvary’s cross? I do not hesitate, stutter or stammer to say- it was love. Love as very few have ever known, or will ever know. Christ (Himself) made not only the choice of a lifetime, but a choice to save ~ thousands upon thousands ~ (myself included!).
Was the cross “plan B?” Or was this horrific event known unto Him who inhabits eternity – “from the beginning?” Who, by the way, is the One (and only One) who knows the end from the beginning? (it is not, I repeat- “not” me!). I hardly know my head from my foot!- or which way is up!- but God knows!
God “only” knows. Man, with all of his technological wizardry still to this very day doesn’t have a clue as to what goes on within just one square inch of soil, -much less something the size of (say) the Grand Canyon! Just “how big” is God? More than this man’s puny mind can handle! Yes sir, and amen!
But this same (Sovereign) God is the One who numbers every hair on every head and attends sparrow funerals! God of the stars and God of the sand! LORD of the macro and LORD of the micro! LORD of the living and LORD of the dead! Blessed is the Name of our Sovereign-Sustaining-Saving-Shepherd!!
If Christ is not LORD of all- He is not LORD at all.
LORD of every thought and action,
LORD to send and LORD to stay;
LORD in speaking, writing, giving,
LORD in all things to obey;
Now and evermore to be.
(E. H. Swinstead)
“We (each of us) are totally free in all “choices” we will make today. Go ahead, make the mighty decision, “what cereal shall I have for breakfast today!””
Hi Carl,
I think you are just “joshing” us with your assertions of absolute freedom
But what if I wake up tomorrow and am so overwhelmed with my freedom with all the choices
That I become overwhelmed with my freedom and so anxious with the infinite choices
That I enter a state a state of absolute Nausea
As was so well described by Jean Paul Sartre in his most famous philosophical treatise
Being and Nothingness
“what cereal shall I have for breakfast today!” becomes a mute point
Because I’m too sick to my stomach to eat anything today
Being overwhelmed with choices was handled with the Torah – God said this is what is right, now it is up to you to choose.
There are people so overwhelmed with choices they do nothing, or pick foolishly, or fail to realize that there are actually rules set up to help guide your choices to enjoy an abundant and joyful life.
Because I’m too sick to my stomach to eat anything today
Hi Carl,
BTW I was just joshing you, to make a philosophical point
Actually, I had granola with milk and yogurt
For breakfast
Tagging on to Carl is tough, but here goes.
It all started in Genesis 2:16-17.
Follow Me. Or follow yourself. Absolute free choice.
Nothing or no one can strong-arm this free choice.
Thank God!
Thousands of years later, God’s inspired Word in Rm 10:17 says:
“So then, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.”
At least we can hear. I hiope we can hear.
But what do we make of this statement of Jeshua?
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you
should go and bear fruit . . .” Jn 15:17
Was this meant only for the ears of His original disciples? Or for us today, too?
So, we ponder.
Now, can it be said, that Yeshua made the FIRST choice? He chose to
love us and die for us. And then, He freely invites us to live with Him
forever. He freely gives us the next choice: to accept or reject His
offer.
We decide. On our own. Freely.
Absolute free choice
Hi Rich
We do not have absolute free choice in my view
For example, I did not have an option to study at Oxford
It was only by the grace of God that I got into UCSD
If I had a choice, I would be working
If I had a choice, I would not be sick to my stomach
I can choose how to react to my condition
But I work within limits that limit my choices
Now you’re heading in the right direction, Michael. Defining your terms. What is ‘free will?’ ANd you rightly notice there are many things a person cannot choose.
Past past the age of 30 cannot choose to be 29 years of age again.
You cannot choose to take a 2-year break from aging, then pick up and carry on again.
You cannot choose your natural parents.
And the list goes on.
So what, then, is free will?
This was one of the arguments Luther carried in his book “Bondage of the Will” written against Erasmus. Failure to define terms here can soon lead people to conclude that humans might possibly have a free will identical to God’s. We might wish we had such choices, but until a human being can create ex nihilo, I guess we have to confine our idea of ‘free will’ to ‘creaturely free will’ and learn to live with our limitations.
“So what, then, is free will?”
Hi Ian,
Free will, to me, means that I am
Responsible for what I do and say
My question is what is the meaning of the relationship
Between Moses, “I am what I am,” Popeye the Sailor
Spinach, Olive Oil, 007, the Hollywood sign in the LA hills
The French Connection with Fernando Rey as Frog 1
In a battle royale with Gene Hackman as Popeye Doyle
Why do we find the hero, Popeye Doyle, on heroin?
Free will, The French Connection, Frank Lentricchia, and Micky Mantle
Speaking of Popeye Doyle I’d like to share a funny experience from a few years ago
In 1979 I interviewed for a job at UC Irvine to teach American/English literature
Unfortunately the chairman of the department had just published a book on Hawthorne
And was very excited to share his thesis with me during the interview
So although there were 4 or 5 professors in the room, the Chairman and I
Enthusiastically dominated most of the discussion
And during the discussion I politely explained why each of his points were based upon
A faulty paradigm
After the interview, one of the professors invited me to go with him to listen to a speaker
He was very nice to me and very supportive and knew some my friends and teacher
Needless to say I didn’t get the job, but after many years, 4-5 years ago, I thought of him
I was working then and living at home one night, when I decided to look him up
Now when I work at night I typically like to watch a movie in the background
And on that particular night I was watching The French Connection
And at that very moment Gene Hackman was trying to kick his heroin addiction
To get through his hell, Popeye Doyle was chanting the name of his hero Mickey Mantle
And at that very moment, instead of getting a picture of Frank Lentricchia at Duke
My computer screen filled up with a picture of Mickey Mantle (at bat)
Darn near had a heart attack I was so surprised
http://literature.duke.edu/people?Gurl=/aas/Literature&Uil=frll&subpage=profile
Responsibility, of course. But we can only be responsible for those things that have true ‘free will’ over, and those are limited to the way God has created us.
Responsibility, of course. But we can only be responsible for those things that have true ‘free will’ over, and those are limited to the way God has created us.
Hi Ian
I would not want to say your statement is false, but it is very ambiguous
I would argue that I have free will to jump into bed with somebody’s wife
But to do so I must decide to take sides against the God Father
And then he would give me an offer I couldn’t refuse
Sort of like karma
(Tag) you’re it! Yes, Rich P., we love Him because He first loved us! ~ I have loved you with an everlasting love! ~ Loved who? “Whosoever will!”
Because God *SO* loved (who?) the world.. (enough that He what?) He gave His only Son, that only “certain ones” who believed on Him.. or is it, “whosoever will?” ~ For God sent not His Son (the Sent One) into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved ~ (John 3.17)
Amazingly, “whosoever will” also means there are “whosoever won’ts!” Some will believe.. -and others? Now, here’s an interesting phrase that has bothered me up one side and down the other for a number of years now.. ~ of this, they are “willingly ignorant!” ~ Willingly ignorant? How can anyone (n their right mind) want to be “willingly ignorant?” Unless of course, this “ignorance” that is in them is one of choice! Allow me to say, “I willingly choose to be ignorant..” Has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it? And then we have this wonderful verse: ~ the fool has said in his heart- “No God!” (Psalm 14.1) Those ~ whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things ~ (Philippians 3.19)
If there is one word in all of the word of God we can (all) be grateful for, it is the word “nevertheless”
~ and He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me;
“*nevertheless* – not My will, but Yours be done.”
None of us has a clue- (do we?) of the intense struggle behind these words:
~ And being in anguish, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground ~ (Luke 22.44)
Now an angel from Heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.…
YHWH allows a natural course of events to run its course, which is subjected to men’s choices and decisions, even when He has a schedule to comply with. HE watches over all our decisions and choices, if we will seek His help and purpose.
Those who seek Him, He will guide to turn situations to be blessings, those who do not will suffer the consequences of their own choosing.
The “predestination” of the unborn child is not in YHWH’s control, it is in the hands of the couple who conceived the child! Nor the death of that child if the parents are irresponsible in any event.
But again YHWH can change situations around through our prayers IF ABBA sees that person has a heart that deserves another opportunity to do right through His chesed.
HE has said we are not to pray for the rebellious, those who trust in false words, for He will not hear that prayer.Jer 7:16
Jer 7; that is a tough chapter because you see Y-H delivering a judgement against His people. He does not do so on a whim though (as earthly kings do). He clearly lays out why this will come to pass and it is all disobedience. (no wonder Jeremiah was known as the weeping prophet)
Interesting how everything the people CHOSE to do were basically attempts to satisfy the flesh. (how is this any different than what we see today?) Seems to me that Y-H’s hesed is evident when you read how long He has tried to teach them and bring them to a much better choice but the people would not have it. (I again see that pattern today)
Now they will pay the piper so to speak for their choice of cursing (back to Deut) rather than blessing.
I think it is pretty clear here that free will (choice) is a part of life and certainly determines outcomes. This is NOT to say that Adonai cannot intervene in one way or another because He can. I think we have to be satisfied that we are NOT Y-H and He is and there are some things beyond our ability to explain. I am okay with that. I trust Him and while I am still learning His ways I choose blessing.
Don’t get me wrong-this is not a testimony of having figured it all out (hardly!) but simply a testimony of choice. I have a lot of baggage to throw off but I have a perfect (yes-perfect) example in Jesus Christ-a man well acquainted with sorrows.
It is a continuing race till death comes. An easy life once one chooses blessing is NOT promised so think it not strange when tough situations keep coming up–life happens! Just keep running this most important race and remember that Y-H always delivers and that He is ALWAYS who He says He is (far above us and NOT willing to be stuffed into any stupid box we design!).
Wow- not sure where all that came from but I wish Shalom to all today and every day.
Ian,
Most interesting view on predestination. Hadn’t thought about it in that way but I actually can relate that to the people having to have a king over them! They had troubles even then trusting in Y-H rather than the worlds system. So Y-H gave em what they wanted and look where it got us! Kinda puts teeth in the old saying of be careful what you wish for!
Nothing like the word “predestination” to capture everyone’s attention as we all struggle to understand the Scripture.
But first, a misconception. That is the understanding of predestination itself. Here’s how one Calvinistic document explains it: “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” (Westminster Confession of Faith, III:1).
If this is a contradiction, then it’s an absurdity. If it’s a paradox, then it is true, but we cannot finally explain why it is true.
However, what is interesting is to survey the cultures where this particular concept of predestination is or is not a part of the cultural climate. And you notice that wherever predestination is denied to YHVH, people are very happy to attribute it to the political order in some form. This is one of the reasons the legislative program expands without limit, as the political order attempts to control everything that comes to pass. And that is the outcome of man’s attempts at predestination.
It seems people cannot live without predestination. So the choice becomes: Whose predestination will we choose? YHVH or man? One form of predestination “establishes” true contingency and liberty; the other eliminates freedom of choice in the name of total planning.
Thus a rather fascinating choice confronts us. I wonder which one people will choose, and why. 🙂
Predestination is Romans 8:1 when we do not walk after the fleshly nature, but after the Ruach of YHWH, will/shall not be condemned, if indeed we have the right spirit.
If and when as many are led by the Ruach of Elohim, these are the Sons of Elohim.
YET, we are on a progressive path, a path of learning, changing our paradigm.
The mind of the flesh does not subject itself to the Torah of YHWH, neither indeed is it able-v 7, then there is no regeneration of that spirit to walk in YHWH’s instructions, to be chosen/”predestined”.
Jewish Encyclopedia
PREDESTINATION:
The belief that the destiny of man is determined beforehand by Elohim. “Predestination” in this sense is not to be confounded with the term “preordination,” applied to the moral agents as predetermining either election to eternal life or reprobation. This latter view of predestination, held by Christian and Mohammedan theologians, is foreign to Judaism, which, professing the principle of Free Will, teaches that eternal life and reprobation are dependent solely upon man’s goodor evil actions.
Avraham was “predestined” to be the father of many ‘nations’/people, as a promise/Brit/covenant YHWH made to him, upon Avraham’s willingness to leave his father’s house, Gen 12:1, which he did.
Ephesians 1:3-6
The “we” predestined to become His sons are those who are “in Meshiach” (Vs 3) “In Him” (Vs 4) and “in the Beloved” (Vs 6) who has been redeemed.
But it is I who determine whether I will be in Him or not, making it possible, and calling upon me to make the choice.
Again Ester was called/picked into the kingdom, but she has to be instructed to comply with the house-rules of the kingdom, to know the protocol of a queen if chosen. So, there is a learning process to be chosen, though called into the Kingdom of YHWH. There is No predestination.
Shalom!
I came across this interesting video someone posted on Facebook today, and I thought this might shed some light on this issue of “pre-destination..”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnePHmftB-g&feature=youtu.be
shed some light on this issue of “pre-destination..”
yup, “pre-destination..” = “snake-oil”
Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).
Hmmm
If Joseph is a son David, and Jesus is not Joseph’s son, then Jesus is not a descendant of David, is he?
Matthew says he is as I recall, but saying doesn’t make it so
Michael, Jesus is not only the son of David, but David’s LORD as well! A history of His genealogy is written for us in Matthew chapter 1.
Hi Carl,
If Jesus is not the son of Joseph, who was a descendant of David
And Mary was not a descendant of David
Then there is no evidence in the text that Jesus was a descendant of David
Matthew says Jesus was a descendant David
But Matthew has a political agenda
IMO Matthew calls Jesus Lord
Because Matthew considers Jesus a King
A valid interpretation of a text must be logical
And it is not logical to say there is one God
And to say Yahweh is God
And Jesus is God
And they are two different characters
Jesus is a man
And God is nothing
Hi Michael, yes it most certainly does fly in the face of the “logical” mind! It beggars belief to even think that God, the Creator, would become the creature, a man “just like us!” Behold, a virgin shall conceive!
What is “logical” about a virgin giving birth? Nothing!- It just doesn’t “happen” like that! Only one Man ever can claim that distinction! And that One Man is the son of man AND the Son of God!
Yes, I am very aware of “the LORD our God is ONE!” But didn’t the LORD Jesus say “I and My Father are ONE?” (again, where is logic?) How can one plus one equal One? (And we haven’t even factored in the Ruach yet!) Father-Son-Spirit- These three are One and yet are three!
Michael, I’ve gotta confess- it is a genuine bona-fide mystery to me! I can attempt to explain the “doctrine” of the trinity (or triune nature of YHWH) but there are those with many more degrees behind their name than I that can’t “explain” it either!
All I can say at this point is “maybe God designed it that way! If we had it “all figured out” none of us would need to “walk by faith!” There are so many things I cannot explain and so many things that are far beyond my pay grade- and they are mounting up!
I think I’ll camp out with Paul the Apostle (Rabbi Sha’ul) and borrow His words (this guy was no slouch!”- a very educated and brilliant man, but he said (and I quote!): ~ For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified ~ (1 Corinthians 2.2)
I believe the old adage “it’s not what you know, but who you know,”- might be applicable here!
And again from Paul: (1 Corinthians 1:23) ~but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles..~
Let’s return though to logic and reason! Was it “reasonable” or “logical or even “morally right” to have Christ (in whom Pilate could determine no guilt!) crucified? What was His crime? What sin was He guilty of ? (I know the answer!)
~ He came unto His own and His own received Him not ~ Why not? (John 1.11)
Wanted to share this ‘logic’ about the Trinity
Someone showed me this: 1+1+1= 3 (um, no, God is not 3)
BUT GOD . . .multiplies things ! . . . 1x1x1=1
Gen. 1: 28 Then God blessed them and said, Be fruitful and multiply.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord. 2 Pet. 1: 12
May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you. Jude 1: 2
Luke 18:29-30: Truly I tell you … no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many TIMES as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.
Sorrows are multiplied too, for any who run after other gods, {ref.} Psalm 16:4
And then a tribute to our friend Jan who always said ♥♥♥=♥ + ♥=me & HIM
So we have now discovered a Greek image of the Trinity (math based0. How appropriate. The problem, of course, is that 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1=1 Conclusion? All gods are the same, right?
I will copy your comment before reply, since I don’t see a reply place
Skip said: So we have now discovered a Greek image of the Trinity (math based0. How appropriate. The problem, of course, is that 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1=1 Conclusion? All gods are the same, right?
My turn:
No, there is no God like our God. He says He knows of none. Isa. 44:8
I know my post is a silly math fun thing. The internet is full of this sort of thing.
We also say God adds and multiplies, but the adversary divides and subtracts.
Nobody is building theology on things of this nature.
No one can explain the Trinity, but you cannot in honesty deny it since the text is full of references.
God is infinitely greater than we are — therefore, I don’t see we should expect to be able to fully understand Him, and certainly not reduce Him to an equation.
Over time I have watched certain questions that have been put to you in hopes of seeing a reply.
None come.
But a silly little thing like this gets an immediate response! No matter where in the world you are!
sigh *Head scratch*
But this is just the problem, isn’t it? The text is “full” of the Trinity after you decide that the Trinity is what the text is full of. The paradigm provides the evidence. If the text were TRANSPARENTLY full of the Trinity, then Jews would recognize it and the Church would not have taken 300 years to formulate it.
Once again, just like the math fun, the paradigm determines the facts. The “facts” of Scripture are what you have already decided to see there. By the way, the same it true for me, so don’t think I am claiming exemption. I am merely pointing out that the Scripture is NOT TRANSPARENT. We all come with our views. So, you can’t use Scripture to defeat another’s point of view on issues like this. You MUST think in terms of the WHOLE picture provided by the paradigm and work at that level.
Thank you, now that is the answer of a real teacher.
We don’t see the same picture out of the whole, but I APPRECIATE your answer.
Everywhere I look I encounter Jesus, Son of God, son of man.
The Father is God (John 6:27; Rom. 1:7; 1 Pet 1:2)
Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1, 14; Rom. 9:5; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:8; 1 John 5:20)
The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Cor. 3:16)
But, there is only one God (De. 6:4; 1 Cor. 8:4; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5)
Do you really/truly understand that from your paradigm?
If you say you do, I won’t ask for an explanation.
Right now I only want to know if you believe you grasp it.
I don’t understand. Yet I believe each and every Word of what all those verses say.
My paradigm is faith.
Faith is a flower from God. I didn’t make the seed, nor the stem, nor the bloom.
It just was there one day, being.
And neither do I claim that only I have faith.
It’s How We Roll
Our reference point (the gold standard) is the Biblical account. ~ What do the scriptures (themselves) – what does the word of God tell us concerning the Deity of Christ?
Was He a man,- just like you and me?
Or was He God and not “human” at all?
Or was He the “Logos Incarnated into flesh?
Is He “who” He says He is?
Is He worthy of our worship? Should we welcome His words?
And what about “me?” Am I a Father? and a son? and a brother? and a friend?- Do I have a body? and emotions? and a mind? Yes, for I (too) am one and made (according to the word of God), in His image.
So it seems then, our Bible, the word(s) of God provides us with “both” questions and answers!
Where did we come from? God created this world and He did so how? – by (merely?) speaking!! “let there be..”
and? .. there was! Is this “logical?” Can “something” come from “nothing?” – Not in our “world!”
I offer these “two words.” Yes, just two. – “But God..”
In my mind (yes, the “world according to me!- ha!) this cannot be done… BUTTTTTTT!- (big but!)
~ WHAT DO THE SCRIPTURES SAY? ~
THis is our (only) standard and our (only) foundation for righteous and holy living. Not only “what does the Torah say?” but also the entire Tanakh and the B’rit Chadashah! ~ every word of God is pure! ~
God is not “random” in anything He does or says! Is He ( a man inquired) fully able to communicate with us and to us?
What if? (he inquired) a man were to be able to communicate with a sparrow? Then I could open the back door to my screened in deck and “tell” the errant sparrow how to escape his caged enclosure and fly back into freedom! But I am not a sparrow and can only leave the screen door open in hopes the little creature will find the opening.
But (again) “what if?” What if God were to become a man? Yes, one of “us?” “What if” the Creator were to become the creature? and live ~ among us? ~ Yes, God (fully) “with us?” In every way, shape, form and fashion- a man. Does this speak to you (as it does to me) of the “humility” of God?
What did God have to “give up” in order to become a man? (my mind is now “both” bothered and boggled!) Is this “logical?” No.. but “LOVE” (especially this kind of love!) is not (at all) “logical!”
How may Deity become humanity? Miracle number one? Or have many “miracles” preceded this one?
What about this Man, this Babe born in Bethlehem Judea? What makes “Him” so special? So special that a group of men would travel a great distance guided by a “special” star to present this little one (one who was born in a barn!) with gold, frankincense and myrrh,- all gifts befitting a King?
Was this Jesus the “King of the Jews?” Or was He “King of all kings” and “LORD of all lords?”
Is Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?
Is He able – does He have the “authority,” to forgive sins?
Where does tHis authority come from?
Who has been given a Name which is above all other names?
Who else (that you know of) has conquered Death, Sin, Hasatan and the Grave? Please.. tell me that I may worship Him!
Is Christ the Redeemer of all mankind? Is He the Savior of the world?- or of the Jew (or Gentile) only?
The Bible says: “Christ died for sinners..” Do “I” qualify? Most assuredly..(and honestly)- yes.
The “fact”of sin has been thoroughly established. How?
~ that the whole world may become guilty before God! ~
Any “perfect people?” among us? Or are we ALL sinners? Only ONE ever lived a perfectly and fully Torah obedient life. Only One. And His reward for this? Crucifixion upon a criminal’s cross, the “tslav” or execution stake. Is this “logical?” No.. -not at all- this is insanity! A sinless-spotless Lamb was slain.
Why would we crucify an innocent man? One who not only claimed to be, – but was, God the Son? Son of God “AND” son of man!
When God speaks, we should *listen,- and do* what He says. In the words of His own mother to the servants: ~ whatever He says unto you- “do it.” Our greatest need is to “shema” the Savior.
Now, need we be divided by diet? ~ Eat that which is good and let your soul delight itself in fatness! ~
These are the instructions of YHWH. Should we, need we be divided by days? Say.. what day is it “today?” for this day- This is the day.. this is the day which the the LORD has made..- whether it be a Thursday or a Monday or any other day, whether it be a Holiday, (a “holy” day) or one of those “plain Jane” days that end in “y”- we should worship the LORD our God and whatever our hands find to do- we “do it” with all our might and to the glory of God! (amen!)
Was man made for the Sabbath or was the Sabbath made for man? Rest is a necessary part of life and of living. We are ALL organic creatures made out of the same frail and fragile materials. ~ He has made of one blood all the nations of the earth ~ Whether male, female, black, white, north or south- we ALL share the same color blood- red. ~ There is a rest that remains for the people of God ~ Who are the people of God?
~ For you are all children of God by the faith of Yeshua The Messiah ~ Jesus, (who is the) Christ.
And what about eating meat that has been sacrificed to idols? Is this “okay?” Some do- some don’t. Some say “yes,”- some say “no..” ~ But what does the Word of God (both written and Living!) say? ~ (this is how we roll)
~ It is not what goes into the mouth that makes a person unclean. It is what comes out of the mouth that makes a person unclean. ~
Little children, what comes out of our mouths? Words. ~ and “every” idle word that men shall speak
Matthew 15:18-20 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the …
Matthew 12:34-37 O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? …
Psalm 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue …
Psalm 12:2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbor: with flattering lips …
Psalm 52:2-4 The tongue devises mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully…
Psalm 58:3,4 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as …
Isaiah 37:23 Whom have you reproached and blasphemed? and against whom have you …
Isaiah 59:3-5,13-15 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; …
Jeremiah 9:3-6 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are …
Romans 3:13,14 Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used …
James 3:5-8 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasts great things. …
2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through …
Welcome His Words, – Watch Yours!
What’s down in the well will come up in the bucket!